Bible and science?

Brightmoon said:

lol to the point that they accepted astrology

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Even astrology involves stuff moving in space. Obviously space was not a tin can or metal sheet.

myst33 said:

And believed that sun, moon and planets are gods...

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Or the demons associated with some of them....

Dad,

dad said:

Forming is not evolving. God forms us in the womb. Nothing to do with evolution. Don't interject your religion into reality. Adam was not an embryo, so your attempted point is also totally off base.

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Ignorance is bliss for creationists and Adam was an imaginative construct to demonstrate that God created everything

Brightmoon said:

lol to the point that they accepted astrology

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Perhaps that's why Discovery Institute Fellow, Michael Behe testified under oath that astrology is a science in the same sense that Intelligent Design is science.

Brightmoon said:

Dad,

Ignorance is bliss for creationists and Adam was an imaginative construct to demonstrate that God created everything

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Writing in large letters does not make a mistaken position correct. God forms us in the belly. Can you point out something in your article that says it is evolution? Ha.

myst33 said:

And believed that sun, moon and planets are gods...

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Is that really correct with regard to the Hebrews, who claimed only one God?
It was with other cultures at the time.

For sure, the cosmological understanding of the Ancient Near East was that there was the earth, and a dome of air, then water above, etc....

The Bible isn't a science book. Weathermen still say "sunrise" and "sunset", even though the sun doesn't orbit the Earth.

The Barbarian said:

Perhaps that's why Discovery Institute Fellow, Michael Behe testified under oath that astrology is a science in the same sense that Intelligent Design is science.

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I like Behe, but I think Intelligent Design theory is marching down a disappointing dead end. To me, Intelligent Design in the vein of Behe admits to a lesser God that has to constantly tinker with His creation to get things to evolve the way He really wanted them to be.

Catfisher said:

I like Behe, but I think Intelligent Design theory is marching down a disappointing dead end. To me, Intelligent Design in the vein of Behe admits to a lesser God that has to constantly tinker with His creation to get things to evolve the way He really wanted them to be.

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Yep. An omnipotent Creator would be able to create a universe that works to his intent, the first time.

But IDers say that the "designer", could be a "space alien." They're more comfortable with a less-than-omnipotent designer.

The Barbarian said:

Yep. An omnipotent Creator would be able to create a universe that works to his intent, the first time.

But IDers say that the "designer", could be a "space alien." They're more comfortable with a less-than-omnipotent designer.

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That just boots the question to another level, potentially creating an infinite regress, which is a logical problem. If you have an infinite series of designers designing the next designers, then you have no source that ever gets the series in motion... or in this case - designed. For even the designers don't have the power in them to design themselves initially.

If you have several freight cars but no locomotive, the freight cars don't move. Positing an infinitely long series of freight cars won't provide an explanation for their movement.

Brightmoon said:

you do realize that firmament means something hard enough to walk on and the people who wrote the Bible actually thought the sky was a hard dome with lights stuck to it . Modern English usage of firmament to mean the sky is poetic

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Not according to Hebrew dictionaries.

Even JOb the earlies writer, recognized the heavens and the heaven of heavens where the stars lay!

Brightmoon said:

lol to the point that they accepted astrology

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Interesting enough in Genesis God declared: "14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:"

there was an ancient astrological methodology called the Mazzoreth now long gone. But it seems modern astrology is the corruption of that.

nolidad said:

Not according to Hebrew dictionaries.

Even JOb the earlies writer, recognized the heavens and the heaven of heavens where the stars lay!

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Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon:
רָקִיעַ noun masculineGenesis 1:6 extended surface, (solid) expanse (as if beaten out; compare Job 37:18); — absolute ׳ר Ezekiel 1:22 +, construct ׳רְ Genesis 1:14 +; — ᵐ5 στερέωμα, ᵑ9 firmamentum, compare Syriac below √above; —
1 (flat) expanse (as if of ice, compare כְּעֵין הַקֶּרַח), as base, support (WklAltor. Forsch. iv. 347) Ezekiel 1:22,23,25(gloss ? compare Co Toy), Ezekiel 1:26 (supporting ׳י's throne). Hence (CoEzekiel 1:22)

2 the vault of heaven, or 'firmament,' regarded by Hebrews as solid, and supporting 'waters' above it, Genesis 1:6,7 (3 t. in verse); Genesis 1:8 (called שָׁמַיַם; all P), Psalm 19:2 ("" הַשָּׁמַיַם), ׳זֹהַר הָר Daniel 12:3; also ׳ר הַשָּׁמִיִם Genesis 1:14,15,17, ׳הַשּׁ ׳עַלמְּֿנֵי ר Genesis 1:20 (all P). **רְקִיעַ עֻזּוֺ Psalm 150:1 (suffix reference to ׳י).

The Barbarian said:

In fact, the story of Noah says that the firmament is solid, with gates in it that open to let water fall through as rain.

This is troubling only to those who believe that the Bible is inerrant even to incidental things not related to God's message to us.

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Isn't it also interesting that our space program discovered that if you do not enter at just the right angle- you will bounce off the upper atmosphere and be launched into space again! HHMMM!!??

We cannot say for sure water the water above the atmosphere, what form it took, nor do we know ho high it was placed in the atmosphere.

nolidad said:

We cannot say for sure water the water above the atmosphere, what form it took, nor do we know ho high it was placed in the atmosphere.

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I'd still like to know where Kimura said that beneficial mutations don't exist, and who the former chair of Harvard genetics was that said the same thing, and what exactly he said.

The Barbarian said:

Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon:
רָקִיעַ noun masculineGenesis 1:6 extended surface, (solid) expanse (as if beaten out; compare Job 37:18); — absolute ׳ר Ezekiel 1:22 +, construct ׳רְ Genesis 1:14 +; — ᵐ5 στερέωμα, ᵑ9 firmamentum, compare Syriac below √above; —
1 (flat) expanse (as if of ice, compare כְּעֵין הַקֶּרַח), as base, support (WklAltor. Forsch. iv. 347) Ezekiel 1:22,23,25(gloss ? compare Co Toy), Ezekiel 1:26 (supporting ׳י's throne). Hence (CoEzekiel 1:22)

2 the vault of heaven, or 'firmament,' regarded by Hebrews as solid, and supporting 'waters' above it, Genesis 1:6,7 (3 t. in verse); Genesis 1:8 (called שָׁמַיַם; all P), Psalm 19:2 ("" הַשָּׁמַיַם), ׳זֹהַר הָר Daniel 12:3; also ׳ר הַשָּׁמִיִם Genesis 1:14,15,17, ׳הַשּׁ ׳עַלמְּֿנֵי ר Genesis 1:20 (all P). **רְקִיעַ עֻזּוֺ Psalm 150:1 (suffix reference to ׳י).

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Yes I have that definition...now for the rest of teh story!

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. if we had to stand on this alone then it would appear you trtue!


BUT BUT BUT:

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

God called the firmament(raqiya) heaven (shamayim)

shamayim
Pronunciation
shä·mah'·yim heaven (398x), air (21x), astrologers (with H1895) (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. heaven, heavens, sky
   
   
   1. visible heavens, sky
      
      1. as abode of the stars
         
         
      2. as the visible universe, the sky, atmosphere, etc
         
   2. Heaven (as the abode of God)
      
2. Once again , a Careful look at the word of God shows god called the sky- sky, ot a vaulted dome. There may have been a dome, but that was not the raqiya!

sfs said:

I'd still like to know where Kimura said that beneficial mutations don't exist, and who the former chair of Harvard genetics was that said the same thing, and what exactly he said.

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At near the 13 minute mark it shows a quote from the chair of a genetics dept showing mutations do noty advance life


This one shows Kimeras distribution: about 12 minutes.


Around 6 minutes a great quote about nearly all science not needing evolution belief.

But the Harvard prof is at the 7 "30 mark or so!

But I erred I attributed the Wisconsin prof quote to the Harvard guy. Both are ewvolutionists and made powerful quotes. I apologize for the mixup!

Queller said:

Nowhere in Genesis does it say anything came out of the body of God. Where do you get this unbiblical idea?

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Well it does say- that God said and it happened. God did not spit out seeds, He ordered them to be in the ground and to grow! That is why we say ex-Deo The seeds did not but th epower to create teh seeds, did!

myst33 said:

Nolidad, you need to learn how to quote posts properly, because this is unreadable.

Click on "edit" and see how the QUOTE tags fit into the text. You can then repeat the QUOTE tags as many times you need in a post.

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Will do I am still learning to navigate this site.

Brightmoon said:

you do realize that firmament means something hard enough to walk on and the people who wrote the Bible actually thought the sky was a hard dome with lights stuck to it . Modern English usage of firmament to mean the sky is poetic

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Not the writers! Just read Genesis 1:7-8 God created teh firmament (raqiya) and he called that firmament (raqiya) heaven (shamayim)

And those who attribut the early writers of Scripture as believing the stars were astuck in some solid thing were imposing their own bias onto the Scriptures.

nolidad said:

God called the firmament(raqiya) heaven

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The KJV translates Strong's H7549 in the following manner: firmament (17x).

Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. extended surface (solid), expanse, firmament
   
   1. expanse (flat as base, support)
      
   2. firmament (of vault of heaven supporting waters above)
      
      1. considered by Hebrews as solid and supporting 'waters' above
      Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

The word "raqiya" is from the word "riqqua", meaning "beaten out", as a brass bowl would be beaten out from a sheet of metal. Most of the ancient world also thought of the sky as a solid dome. The Hebrews supposed there were gates or windows in it, which could be opened let water fall to earth from the great ocean above the firmament.

Genesis 7:11 In the six hundreth year of the life of Noe in the second month, in the seventeenth day of the month, all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the flood gates of heaven were open: