LDS Mormons and Psalm 82

Christian Apologist said:

Did you read the fact it was part of the D&C until 1921 so that means it was doctrine until then

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The lectures were not revelations from God, that is why they were removed from the Doctrine & Covenants in 1921. These lectures were attributed to Sidney Rigdon and not Joseph Smith.

Sorry my mistake

Christian Apologist said:

Sounds like Modalism in the Book of Mormon​

Luke 10:

23 All things are delivered to me of my Father; and no man knoweth that the Son is the Father, and the Father is the Son, but him to whom the Son will reveal it. JST


Mosiah 15

3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—

4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.


Mosiah 16:

15 Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, who is the very Eternal Father. Amen.

Alma 11:38 Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father?

Helaman 14:12 And also that ye might know of the coming of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and of earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and that ye might know of the signs of his coming, to the intent that ye might believe on his name.


Ether 3:14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

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The Trinity doctrine was created to eliminate modalism. The Christians could not stand the idea that the Jews had the superior position when it came to the 1 God doctrine. The Jews literally believed in 1 God. The Christians now had to consider 3 Gods, God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. How do we get 3 Gods into 1 God, so we can compete for the 1 God doctrine?

The modalism was the first attempt to compete with Israel for the 1 God doctrine.
Sabellius, who was a theologian and priest from the 3rd century.
He theorized that God is said to be only one person who reveals himself in different ways called modes, faces, aspects, roles or masks.
So in modalism, you have 1 God with 3 modes or faces.

Of course, this was considered heretical and Sabellius was excommunicated and after a couple of centuries, modalism lost favor.

Modalism was replaced by the 1 God with 3 Persons doctrine called the Trinity. The only difference between modalism and Trinity was the '3 modes' were replaced by '3 distinct Persons'.

Here is the catch. Sabellius used the word 'consubstantial' to describe his 1 God. When the Nicean council was trying to tie down some details of their 1 God doctrine, the only word they could come up with was 'consubstantial', and this made a lot of bishops nervous. Nervous because Sabellius had used it in the heretical modalism doctrine, and also nervous because the word was unbiblical. But they went ahead anyway and it became a centerpiece of their Trinity doctrine.

So if you want to accuse any doctrine of sounding like modalism, you can look straight at the Trinity doctrine.

Certainly not JS and the doctrine of the biblical Godhead with 3 separate and distinct Persons, this is not close to modalism as is the Trinity, which is almost an identical cousin.

Peter1000 said:

The Trinity doctrine was created to eliminate modalism. The Christians could not stand the idea that the Jews had the superior position when it came to the 1 God doctrine. The Jews literally believed in 1 God. The Christians now had to consider 3 Gods, God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. How do we get 3 Gods into 1 God, so we can compete for the 1 God doctrine?

The modalism was the first attempt to compete with Israel for the 1 God doctrine.
Sabellius, who was a theologian and priest from the 3rd century.
He theorized that God is said to be only one person who reveals himself in different ways called modes, faces, aspects, roles or masks.
So in modalism, you have 1 God with 3 modes or faces.

Of course, this was considered heretical and Sabellius was excommunicated and after a couple of centuries, modalism lost favor.

Modalism was replaced by the 1 God with 3 Persons doctrine called the Trinity. The only difference between modalism and Trinity was the '3 modes' were replaced by '3 distinct Persons'.

Here is the catch. Sabellius used the word 'consubstantial' to describe his 1 God. When the Nicean council was trying to tie down some details of their 1 God doctrine, the only word they could come up with was 'consubstantial', and this made a lot of bishops nervous. Nervous because Sabellius had used it in the heretical modalism doctrine, and also nervous because the word was unbiblical. But they went ahead anyway and it became a centerpiece of their Trinity doctrine.

So if you want to accuse any doctrine of sounding like modalism, you can look straight at the Trinity doctrine.

Certainly not JS and the doctrine of the biblical Godhead with 3 separate and distinct Persons, this is not close to modalism as is the Trinity, which is almost an identical cousin.

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This is Polytheism and not the Godhead of The Book of Mormon

He is the way said:

The lectures were not revelations from God, that is why they were removed from the Doctrine & Covenants in 1921. These lectures were attributed to Sidney Rigdon and not Joseph Smith.

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Joseph Fielding Smith admitted that Joseph Smith helped prepare these lectures: "Now the Prophet did know something about these Lectures on Faith, because he helped to prepare them, and he helped also to revise these lectures before they were published " (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p. 195).


These Lectures on Faith were printed in all of the early editions of the Doctrine and Covenants, but in 1921 they were completely removed and have not appeared in subsequent editions. John William Fitzgerald, who wrote his thesis at BYU, asked Joseph Fielding Smith why they were removed from the Doctrine and Covenants. One of the reasons given was that they were not complete as to their teachings regarding the Godhead. Actually, these lectures were considered complete with regard to their teachings concerning the Godhead at the time they were given. On page 58 of the 1835 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants the following question and answer appear: "Q. Does the foregoing account of the Godhead lay a sure foundation for the exercise of faith in him unto life and salvation? A. It does."


The Lectures were published in 1835 as the Doctrine portion of The Doctrine and Covenants of the Church of the Latter Day Saints. The Lectures were suggested to be added to this version of the D&C by a committee appointed on September 24, 1834 by a general assembly of the church to arrange the doctrines and revelations of the church into a single volume. That committee consisted of Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Sidney Rigdon, and Frederick G. Williams. The general body of the church accepted the committee's compilation on August 17, 1835 as "the doctrine and covenants of their faith, by a unanimous vote."

Christian Apologist said:

This is Polytheism and not the Godhead of The Book of Mormon

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I'm sorry you completely ignored the comparison of modalism to the Trinity vs the Godhead of the Church of Jesus Christ. Will you respond to that?

Peter1000 said:

I'm sorry you completely ignored the comparison of modalism to the Trinity vs the Godhead of the Church of Jesus Christ. Will you respond to that?

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Christian Apologist said:

No modalism in the Trinity ​

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OK, respond to this: modalism is '3 distinct modes in 1 God', Trinity is '3 distinct Persons in 1 God', they both use consubstantial to describe their nature. How are they different?

Christian Apologist said:

Joseph Fielding Smith admitted that Joseph Smith helped prepare these lectures: "Now the Prophet did know something about these Lectures on Faith, because he helped to prepare them, and he helped also to revise these lectures before they were published " (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p. 195).


These Lectures on Faith were printed in all of the early editions of the Doctrine and Covenants, but in 1921 they were completely removed and have not appeared in subsequent editions. John William Fitzgerald, who wrote his thesis at BYU, asked Joseph Fielding Smith why they were removed from the Doctrine and Covenants. One of the reasons given was that they were not complete as to their teachings regarding the Godhead. Actually, these lectures were considered complete with regard to their teachings concerning the Godhead at the time they were given. On page 58 of the 1835 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants the following question and answer appear: "Q. Does the foregoing account of the Godhead lay a sure foundation for the exercise of faith in him unto life and salvation? A. It does."


The Lectures were published in 1835 as the Doctrine portion of The Doctrine and Covenants of the Church of the Latter Day Saints. The Lectures were suggested to be added to this version of the D&C by a committee appointed on September 24, 1834 by a general assembly of the church to arrange the doctrines and revelations of the church into a single volume. That committee consisted of Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Sidney Rigdon, and Frederick G. Williams. The general body of the church accepted the committee's compilation on August 17, 1835 as "the doctrine and covenants of their faith, by a unanimous vote."

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What portion of the lectures were attributed to Joseph Smith and what portion was attributed to Sidney Rigdon? If I am not mistaken most of the lectures were later attributed to Sidney Rigdon and are not prophesy from God. Having been removed, we no longer give much credence to the lectures.

Peter1000 said:

OK, respond to this: modalism is '3 distinct modes in 1 God', Trinity is '3 distinct Persons in 1 God', they both use consubstantial to describe their nature. How are they different?

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Modalism is One person while the Trinity is three separate and distinct persons

Phoebe Ann said:

For God to be playing only one role at a time is modalism.

The Trinity is three person who relate to one another and speak of one another.

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And all the same substance (flesh and bones) like Jesus according to the Nicene Creed.

He is the way said:

And all the same substance (flesh and bones) like Jesus according to the Nicene Creed.

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You never get anything right since substance in the Nicene Creed means God like D&C 20:28 states

Christian Apologist said:

You never get anything right since substance in the Nicene Creed means God like D&C 20:28 states

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D&C 20:28 does not state that that they are of the same substance. We believe they are one in purpose, not one in substance.
sub·stance
/ˈsəbstəns/
noun

1. 1.
   a particular kind of matter with uniform properties.
   "a steel tube coated with a waxy substance"
   synonyms: material, matter, stuff, medium, fabric
   "an organic substance"
2. 2.
   the real physical matter of which a person or thing consists and which has a tangible, solid presence.
   "proteins compose much of the actual substance of the body"
   synonyms: solidity, body, corporeality, reality, actuality, materiality, concreteness, tangibility;

Why would the Nicene Creed us the word substance if they didn't mean substance? I believe it must have been a mistake. I noticed that it was later changed to essence, but even that isn't like purpose.

Phoebe Ann said:

It wouldn't matter if someone spent 12 hours talking to you about the Trinity, you would still want God to have begun as a man.

1 God Was Once a Man As We Are Now
When he was a young man, Lorenzo Snow was promised by the Lord through the Patriarch to the Church that through obedience to the gospel he could become as great as God, “and you cannot wish to be greater”(Eliza R. Snow, Biography and Family Record of Lorenzo Snow, pp. 9-10).

President Lorenzo Snow recorded this experience that occurred when he was still a young elder: “The Spirit of the Lord rested mightily upon me—the eyes of my understanding were opened, and I saw as clear as the sun shone at noon-day, with wonder and astonishment, the pathway of God and man.” Elder Snow expressed this new found understanding in these words: “As man now is, God once was: As God now is, man may be.” Later the Prophet Joseph Smith assured him: “Brother Snow, that is true gospel doctrine, and it is a revelation from God to you” (quoted by LeRoi C. Snow, in “Devotion to Divine Inspiration,” Improvement Era, June 1919, pp. 651-56).

The Prophet Joseph Smith said:
“...It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth” (Teachings, pp. 345-46; italics in original).

President Brigham Young elaborated on this concept: “It must be that God knows something about temporal things, and has a body and been on an earth; were it not so He would not know how to judge men righteously, according to the temptations and sins they have had to contend with” (as cited by Harold B. Lee, in Conference Report, Apr. 1969, p. 130; or Improvement Era, June 1969, p. 104).
Search These Commandments, Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, Copyright 1984, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, p. 151

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It is important to know that Christ was born and grew up learned from His experience here on the earth. How did God learn? In order for God to become God, He had to know good and evil as stated in the Bible:
(Old Testament | Genesis 3:22)

22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

So how did the Gods know good and evil? Did they also have to eat of that tree? What else did they need to do? When did Jesus become perfected?

(New Testament | Hebrews 5:8 - 9)

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

(New Testament | Luke 13:32)

32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

(New Testament | Philippians 2:5 - 6)

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

He is the way said:

D&C 20:28 does not state that that they are of the same substance. We believe they are one in purpose, not one in substance.
sub·stance
/ˈsəbstəns/
noun

1. 1.
   a particular kind of matter with uniform properties.
   "a steel tube coated with a waxy substance"
   synonyms: material, matter, stuff, medium, fabric
   "an organic substance"
2. 2.
   the real physical matter of which a person or thing consists and which has a tangible, solid presence.
   "proteins compose much of the actual substance of the body"
   synonyms: solidity, body, corporeality, reality, actuality, materiality, concreteness, tangibility;

Why would the Nicene Creed us the word substance if they didn't mean substance? I believe it must have been a mistake. I noticed that it was later changed to essence, but even that isn't like purpose.

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Substantia

There were two major Latin words involved. The first is substantia, Although the word was idiomatically to mean “goods” or “property” and in a legal sense to denote “ that to which two or more parties could share legal claim,” there never was never much doubt as to what the Church Fathers intended when using substantia was simply the being of God. Thus to say , with the Latin orthodox theologians, that Father,Son, and Spirit were consubstantialis was to say that they shared the same basic “thing” or “what” that they were: namely, they were God.

Godhead, God, substance Essence and Being all synonyms

E. Calvin Beisner

God in Three Persons

The Christian Church throughout history has found in order to remain faithful to the teachings of the New Testament regarding the person and work of Christ, it had to affirm at least the following doctrines:

The doctrine of the Trinity----that in the nature of the One True God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, each fully God, Coequal and Coeternal

When we have said these three things, then—that there is but one God, that the Father and the Son and the Spirit is each a distinct person—we have enunciated the doctrine of the Trinity in its completeness.

We may condense this into a somewhat shorter statement, one which is more precise: In the nature of the God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit ( or substance ) of the one true God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit p 24


“The Nicene Creed, then, with centuries of theological discussion and controversy behind it, still teaches of the Trinity as the New Testament does: that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, while distinct from each other personally, are the same God” p 153

Trinity

first used by Theophilus (A.D. 168 A.D. - 183 A.D.), or from the Lat. trinitas, first used by Tertullian (A.D. 220 A.D.), to express this doctrine. The propositions involved in the doctrine are these: 1. That God is one, and that there is but one God (Deut 6:4; 1 Kings 8:60; Isa 44:6; Mark 12:29,32; John 10:30). 2. That the Father is a distinct divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia, persona, suppositum intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit. 3. That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit. 4. That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct divine Person.

(from Easton's Bible Dictionary, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)



Homoousios -God- Godhead- Substance- Essence- Being –Nature [ all Synonyms ]


Homoiousios = similar substance (Arius' position)


Homo = same


Homoi = similar


Ousios = substance S



One being. Three persons. In other words, one "what" and three "who"s. There is one being, God. There are three persons: God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The distinction is between being and person. One being, three persons. One what, three who's.



All the Persons of the Holy Trinity are IDENTICAL IN ESSENCE but DISTINCT IN PERSONS

John Ankerberg [Everything You Ever Wanted to know about Mormonism]

Page 104-105

1. There is Only One God

2. The Father is God;

3. Jesus Christ, the Son, is God

4. The Holy Spirit is a Person, is eternal and is therefore God

5. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinct persons.


Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary

(n.) The union of three persons (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three persons as to individuality.



“Within the one Being that is God, there exists eternally three coequal and co-eternal persons, namely, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.”

(White, James R. “The Forgotten Trinity” (p. 26). Baker Publishing Group. Kindle Edition)


Tim tebow's father is a Christian Evangelist and here is his statement on the Trinity


We believe God is Trinity, which means that He is one God who has eternally existed in three persons, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Each one is fully God. God is completely unified in His diversity. All persons of the Trinity are equal , nature, and substance, but they are different in persons. All things are from the Father, through the Son, and by the Holy Spirit. Each person of the Godhead shares all the attributes of God, including eternality, freedom, holiness, righteousness, immutability, omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence, happiness, wisdom, sovereignty, perfection, goodness, and justice, grace, and mercy. God is holy, which means that he is transcendent over creation. He is the source of life. Nothing exists apart from His sustaining power. Matthew 28:18–19; Mark 12:29; John 1:14; Acts 5:3–4; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Hebrews 1:1–3; Revelation 1:4–6.