Grace vs Legalism

St_Worm2 · Apr 30, 2019

PROPHECYKID said:
I dont believe that God automatically forgives you of future sins once you accept him. I dont see anywhere in scripture to prove it. What I see a lot of is references to seeking forgiveness and confessing sins and coming to the throne of grace.

Hi again PROPHECYKID, that's what I've been doing for nearly 33 years now (since I became a Christian), so it would be pretty difficult for me to disagree with you

That said, our salvation and the forgiveness of/satisfaction for our sins .. past, present and future .. is by grace alone, on the basis of the works which were done for us by Jesus alone. We continue to seek forgiveness as Christians whenever we sin ~because~ we are saved, because we want to please and obey the One who saved us and has loved us from everlasting, yes?

Thanks!

--David

Dropout_Theologian · Apr 30, 2019

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." 2 Corinthians 5:10

I'm not saying that negates the power of Christ's forgiveness.

Bible Highlighter · May 1, 2019

DeepWater said:
The reality is........The Blood of Christ has already cleansed our Sin.....all of it.....>Tomorrow's included.
"Where SIN abounds...Grace moreso Abounds".... = means....when you sin, after you are saved, the Blood Atonement has already paid for that one ALSO.... It means that when you sin a year from now, on a Monday morning, just before you come here to argue about OSAS, and you sin....THE CROSS has already taken care of that one also.
Realize the revelation that something that happened 2000 years ago on a CROSS, is still your Salvation 20 yrs from NOW !

If a Legalist could actually comprehend that you can't out-sin the BLOOD of CHRIST, that this blood, has actively and permanently SOLVED your "sin" issue, then what a happy Christian they would be, as then they could actually Trust Christ, totally., and not just partly, and then they have to work the rest of their way into heaven.
This is why Jesus died for you. Its what He's doing on the Cross. He is Paying for (cleansing) our sin, from us, by dying FOR IT ALL.
Amazing how many people who claim to be Christians can't even begin to comprehend SALVATION.
Legalists don't understand that the CROSS is a completed work (Blood Atonement), so, they reach into the bible with eyes closed, and never care to learn or realize that not every verse is aimed at a born again believer.

Now, for those of you who have not been taught anything about your NT, or your bible in general..... Scriptures in the NT, and OT< are sometimes literal, sometimes symbolic, and sometimes allegorical....in meaning.
For example, "all who call on the name of Jesus, shall be SAVED"...is literal.
But, "take this cup, as its the blood of the New Covenant"...... this can't be LITERAL, as Jesus's blood is still in HIS BODY, when He's drinking the cup.

See it? ?

A legalist does not understand that "where there is no law, there is no transgression".....as "Christ has ABOLISHED THE LAW"..... is in the NT, reader. Ephesians 2:15
A legalist, reads Romans 4:8, where they are told that God does not hold them accountable, for sin...(impute)....... and they just ignore this and run back to Hebrews, a book-letter not written to the CHURCH, but to UNSAVED JEWS...... and then they get lost in it.

And why LEGALIST,..... does God not hold you accountable, in Eternity, for your sin that you do tomorrow and next week?
A.) Because God already held Jesus accountable on the CROSS for them ALL.
Understand? as this is so so important for you to understand.

A Legalist will take a verse out of Matthew, given before Jesus was on the Cross, that is not NT doctrine for the Blood Bought Redeemed Church, and use this verse out of context to prove to themselves they can "lose it".(Their Salvation)
A Legalist thinks they are in Christ, then fall out of Christ when they sin, and if they confess = do penance or whatever other deeds they can come up with, they get back INTO Christ.
However, Christ has contradicted you, as He said "I will never leave you or forsake you"...so, "Christ in you, the hope of Glory", is a fact, that you need to start believing.

A Legalist actually believes they are saved untill they sin, then confess, and are saved again, ... as if Salvation is a type of Yo-Yo, of sinning confessing, sinning confessing, sinning confessing.....up down, up down.,... kinda crazy, isn't it?
And all of this confusion and chaos is not only the misunderstanding the Blood Atonement, its also not giving FULL Credit DUE to the finished work of Jesus on the Cross.... and that is the REAL issue, for the Legalist.

Not true. No actual verse or passage says future sin is forgiven you. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses you of all sin. So the condition is walking in the light (Which is to love your brother - See 1 John 2:9-10). For Hebrews 5:9 says that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him. Not to those who disobey Him. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. So no. Future sin is not forgiven you, otherwise you would never have any need to confess sins to the Lord so as to be forgiven of them.

Bible Highlighter · May 1, 2019

DeepWater said:
The reality is........The Blood of Christ has already cleansed our Sin.....all of it.....>Tomorrow's included.
"Where SIN abounds...Grace moreso Abounds".... = means....when you sin, after you are saved, the Blood Atonement has already paid for that one ALSO.... It means that when you sin a year from now, on a Monday morning, just before you come here to argue about OSAS, and you sin....THE CROSS has already taken care of that one also.
Realize the revelation that something that happened 2000 years ago on a CROSS, is still your Salvation 20 yrs from NOW !

If a Legalist could actually comprehend that you can't out-sin the BLOOD of CHRIST, that this blood, has actively and permanently SOLVED your "sin" issue, then what a happy Christian they would be, as then they could actually Trust Christ, totally., and not just partly, and then they have to work the rest of their way into heaven.
This is why Jesus died for you. Its what He's doing on the Cross. He is Paying for (cleansing) our sin, from us, by dying FOR IT ALL.
Amazing how many people who claim to be Christians can't even begin to comprehend SALVATION.
Legalists don't understand that the CROSS is a completed work (Blood Atonement), so, they reach into the bible with eyes closed, and never care to learn or realize that not every verse is aimed at a born again believer.

Now, for those of you who have not been taught anything about your NT, or your bible in general..... Scriptures in the NT, and OT< are sometimes literal, sometimes symbolic, and sometimes allegorical....in meaning.
For example, "all who call on the name of Jesus, shall be SAVED"...is literal.
But, "take this cup, as its the blood of the New Covenant"...... this can't be LITERAL, as Jesus's blood is still in HIS BODY, when He's drinking the cup.

See it? ?

A legalist does not understand that "where there is no law, there is no transgression".....as "Christ has ABOLISHED THE LAW"..... is in the NT, reader. Ephesians 2:15
A legalist, reads Romans 4:8, where they are told that God does not hold them accountable, for sin...(impute)....... and they just ignore this and run back to Hebrews, a book-letter not written to the CHURCH, but to UNSAVED JEWS...... and then they get lost in it.

And why LEGALIST,..... does God not hold you accountable, in Eternity, for your sin that you do tomorrow and next week?
A.) Because God already held Jesus accountable on the CROSS for them ALL.
Understand? as this is so so important for you to understand.

A Legalist will take a verse out of Matthew, given before Jesus was on the Cross, that is not NT doctrine for the Blood Bought Redeemed Church, and use this verse out of context to prove to themselves they can "lose it".(Their Salvation)
A Legalist thinks they are in Christ, then fall out of Christ when they sin, and if they confess = do penance or whatever other deeds they can come up with, they get back INTO Christ.
However, Christ has contradicted you, as He said "I will never leave you or forsake you"...so, "Christ in you, the hope of Glory", is a fact, that you need to start believing.

A Legalist actually believes they are saved untill they sin, then confess, and are saved again, ... as if Salvation is a type of Yo-Yo, of sinning confessing, sinning confessing, sinning confessing.....up down, up down.,... kinda crazy, isn't it?
And all of this confusion and chaos is not only the misunderstanding the Blood Atonement, its also not giving FULL Credit DUE to the finished work of Jesus on the Cross.... and that is the REAL issue, for the Legalist.

Also, have you ever read Titus 2:11-12? It says that the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. So are you saying that grace teaches legalism? I sure hope not because God's Word says that God's grace teaches that we should live righteously in this present world (Which is based upon God's laws). For 1 John 3:7 says he that does righteousness is righteous.

Even believing in Jesus is a commandment (law) (See 1 John 3:23),
and believing in Jesus is considered a work (See John 6:28-29).
Is that legalism?

Bible Highlighter · May 1, 2019

St_Worm2 said:
Hi again PROPHECYKID, that's what I've been doing for nearly 33 years now (since I became a Christian), so it would be pretty difficult for me to disagree with you

That said, our salvation and the forgiveness of/satisfaction for our sins .. past, present and future .. is by grace alone, on the basis of the works which were done for us by Jesus alone. We continue to seek forgiveness as Christians whenever we sin ~because~ we are saved, because we want to please and obey the One who saved us and has loved us from everlasting, yes?

Thanks!

--David

Yeah, that's just not taught in Scripture.
If it was then the following verses would not make any sense.

"But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." (James 1:12).

"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
(Matthew 24:13).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."
(Revelation 2:10).

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." (Revelation 2:7).

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." (Revelation 2:11).

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." (Revelation 3:5).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

St_Worm2 · May 1, 2019

Jason0047 said:
Yeah, that's just not taught in Scripture.

Of course salvation by grace, through faith, apart from anything that we do, is taught in the Scriptures Jason :preach:

(and I know you know that). The verses you just quoted above are hardly a denial of that fact, unless you mean to isolate them from the rest of the Bible to give them a different meaning?

Here's a very small sampling of some of the things that the Bible tells us about our gracious salvation.

Romans 4
5 To the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Romans 11
6 If it is by grace, then it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Ephesians 2
8 By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus ~for~ good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Titus 3
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy.

--David

Grip Docility · May 1, 2019

PROPHECYKID said:
Where is the scripture in the bible which says that God has forgiven all sins including FUTURE SINS?

Hebrews 8 for starters.

Zechariah 3:9 is a great place, too. That name Joshua sure looks familiar... I wonder why it’s so similar to Yeshua? That stone with 7 eyes pops up somewhere else, too? Hmmmm

Titus 2:13-14 says “Every Deed” or “all iniquity”. Which isn’t to be confused with most deeds/iniquity or some deeds/iniquity or past deeds/iniquity.

But, Hebrews 4 really drives it home with a “Sabbath Rest” analogy.

IMO

Loyce KG · May 1, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:
Brother, YOU may be the one needing to read Galatians 1:8

Do you realize that in your long post above you've stated that if we obey God and follow His ways we are heretics?

Someone with no knowledge at all of Christianity would know that this statement is incredibly wrong.

Those that follow Christ will follow all that He taught and will be a disciple that wishes to obey God and do God's will.

Could you please post some verses that show that we are to do NOTHING because Jesus already did it all on the cross?

You have an incorrect view of what It Is Finished means. It would be good for you to study up on this and bring no pre.conceived notions to the table.
Your very soul depends on it since you have a false sense of security.

Jesus indeed did say that those who persevere till the end will be saved.
Mathew 24:13

The other N.T. writers confirm this in all the writings.

Is perseverance about keeping the faith or about works?

Bible Highlighter · May 1, 2019

St_Worm2 said:
Of course salvation by grace, through faith, apart from anything that we do, is taught in the Scriptures Jason (and I know you know that). The verses you just quoted above are hardly a denial of that fact, unless you mean to isolate them from the rest of the Bible to give them a different meaning?

Here's a very small sampling of some of the things that the Bible tells us about our gracious salvation.

Romans 4
5 To the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Romans 11
6 If it is by grace, then it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Ephesians 2
8 By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus ~for~ good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Titus 3
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy.

--David

The problem is that you are not giving a rational explanation for the verses I provided.

As for the verses you provided: They are talking about "Initial Salvation" and or "Ultimate Salvation." (i.e. by God's grace through faith). They are referring to the heresy of Works Alone Salvationism that did not include God's grace because Paul was fighting against certain Jews trying to deceive Christians into thinking they had to FIRST be circumcised in order to be initially or ultimately saved. This would mean that if these Christians fell for this deception by the Jews (to be circumcised), they would be making a "work" as the entrance gate to salvation and as the foundation of their faith (See Acts of the Apostles 15, and Galatians 5:1-4).

As for Ephesians 2:8-10:

This is talking about Initial Salvation (See Ephesians 2:1, and Ephesians 3:17). Also, if you were to notice verse 9, it says that this the kind of work that a man would boast in. So this is a man directed work (and not a work of God). For the Bible teaches that God does the good work in the believer (Philippians 2:13). So when a Christian cooperates with the Lord in the good work He wants to do through them, they give praise to the Lord and they would not boast in themselves like a man who seeks to be justified by his own works (that God never commanded). So verse 9 is talking about Man Directed Works because they are the kind of works a man would boast in.

Verse 10 then switches to talking about God directed works because these are the kind of works that we are created unto Christ Jesus to do. We are even told that we SHOULD walk in them.

As for Titus 3:5:

Again, this is talking about Initial Salvation; But if you were to skip back to Titus 2:11-12, it says that the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. Most folks today teach that the grace of God teaches them that they can commit grievous sin and still be saved on some level (Which is ungodliness).

As for Romans 4:

Romans 4 is talking about Trading Dollars for Hours like at a Job (Works Alone Salvationism without God's grace). Romans 4 is not talking about Works of Responsibility in owning a Free Gift. Gifts are received. So again, this is talking about how we are initially or ultimately saved, and it is not talking about the next step or stage in the salvation process (i.e. Sanctification). For 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we are saved by having a (a) Belief in the truth and by (b) Sanctification of the Spirit.

As for Romans 11:

It also says, "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:22).

DamianWarS · May 1, 2019

DeepWater said:
This is why Jesus died for you. Its what He's doing on the Cross. He is Paying for (cleansing) our sin, from us, by dying FOR IT ALL.

relationship with God is the goal, forgiveness through grace is the means to reach that goal. if our spiritual walk was a mountain, forgiveness through grace would be the base camp of that mountain but too often it is thought of as the summit.

GodsGrace101 · May 1, 2019

Loyce KG said:
Is perseverance about keeping the faith or about works?

Good question.
But what's the difference?
If I have faith, works will be present,
Works are necessary if we wish to follow Jesus' commands.
John 14:15
"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments".

The only question that remains is:
What are those commandments?

Maria Billingsley · May 1, 2019

DeepWater said:
The reality is........The Blood of Christ has already cleansed our Sin.....all of it.....>Tomorrow's included.
"Where SIN abounds...Grace moreso Abounds".... = means....when you sin, after you are saved, the Blood Atonement has already paid for that one ALSO.... It means that when you sin a year from now, on a Monday morning, just before you come here to argue about OSAS, and you sin....THE CROSS has already taken care of that one also.
Realize the revelation that something that happened 2000 years ago on a CROSS, is still your Salvation 20 yrs from NOW !

If a Legalist could actually comprehend that you can't out-sin the BLOOD of CHRIST, that this blood, has actively and permanently SOLVED your "sin" issue, then what a happy Christian they would be, as then they could actually Trust Christ, totally., and not just partly, and then they have to work the rest of their way into heaven.
This is why Jesus died for you. Its what He's doing on the Cross. He is Paying for (cleansing) our sin, from us, by dying FOR IT ALL.
Amazing how many people who claim to be Christians can't even begin to comprehend SALVATION.
Legalists don't understand that the CROSS is a completed work (Blood Atonement), so, they reach into the bible with eyes closed, and never care to learn or realize that not every verse is aimed at a born again believer.

Now, for those of you who have not been taught anything about your NT, or your bible in general..... Scriptures in the NT, and OT< are sometimes literal, sometimes symbolic, and sometimes allegorical....in meaning.
For example, "all who call on the name of Jesus, shall be SAVED"...is literal.
But, "take this cup, as its the blood of the New Covenant"...... this can't be LITERAL, as Jesus's blood is still in HIS BODY, when He's drinking the cup.

See it? ?

A legalist does not understand that "where there is no law, there is no transgression".....as "Christ has ABOLISHED THE LAW"..... is in the NT, reader. Ephesians 2:15
A legalist, reads Romans 4:8, where they are told that God does not hold them accountable, for sin...(impute)....... and they just ignore this and run back to Hebrews, a book-letter not written to the CHURCH, but to UNSAVED JEWS...... and then they get lost in it.

And why LEGALIST,..... does God not hold you accountable, in Eternity, for your sin that you do tomorrow and next week?
A.) Because God already held Jesus accountable on the CROSS for them ALL.
Understand? as this is so so important for you to understand.

A Legalist will take a verse out of Matthew, given before Jesus was on the Cross, that is not NT doctrine for the Blood Bought Redeemed Church, and use this verse out of context to prove to themselves they can "lose it".(Their Salvation)
A Legalist thinks they are in Christ, then fall out of Christ when they sin, and if they confess = do penance or whatever other deeds they can come up with, they get back INTO Christ.
However, Christ has contradicted you, as He said "I will never leave you or forsake you"...so, "Christ in you, the hope of Glory", is a fact, that you need to start believing.

A Legalist actually believes they are saved untill they sin, then confess, and are saved again, ... as if Salvation is a type of Yo-Yo, of sinning confessing, sinning confessing, sinning confessing.....up down, up down.,... kinda crazy, isn't it?
And all of this confusion and chaos is not only the misunderstanding the Blood Atonement, its also not giving FULL Credit DUE to the finished work of Jesus on the Cross.... and that is the REAL issue, for the Legalist.

So that being said, what does repentance mean to you?

Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lamp stand from its place—unless you repent.

From these verses one must also repent or else.

Ken Rank · May 1, 2019

DeepWater said:
The reality is........The Blood of Christ has already cleansed our Sin.....all of it.....>Tomorrow's included.
"Where SIN abounds...Grace moreso Abounds".... = means....when you sin, after you are saved, the Blood Atonement has already paid for that one ALSO.... It means that when you sin a year from now, on a Monday morning, just before you come here to argue about OSAS, and you sin....THE CROSS has already taken care of that one also.
Realize the revelation that something that happened 2000 years ago on a CROSS, is still your Salvation 20 yrs from NOW !

If a Legalist could actually comprehend that you can't out-sin the BLOOD of CHRIST, that this blood, has actively and permanently SOLVED your "sin" issue, then what a happy Christian they would be, as then they could actually Trust Christ, totally., and not just partly, and then they have to work the rest of their way into heaven.
This is why Jesus died for you. Its what He's doing on the Cross. He is Paying for (cleansing) our sin, from us, by dying FOR IT ALL.
Amazing how many people who claim to be Christians can't even begin to comprehend SALVATION.
Legalists don't understand that the CROSS is a completed work (Blood Atonement), so, they reach into the bible with eyes closed, and never care to learn or realize that not every verse is aimed at a born again believer.

Now, for those of you who have not been taught anything about your NT, or your bible in general..... Scriptures in the NT, and OT< are sometimes literal, sometimes symbolic, and sometimes allegorical....in meaning.
For example, "all who call on the name of Jesus, shall be SAVED"...is literal.
But, "take this cup, as its the blood of the New Covenant"...... this can't be LITERAL, as Jesus's blood is still in HIS BODY, when He's drinking the cup.

See it? ?

A legalist does not understand that "where there is no law, there is no transgression".....as "Christ has ABOLISHED THE LAW"..... is in the NT, reader. Ephesians 2:15
A legalist, reads Romans 4:8, where they are told that God does not hold them accountable, for sin...(impute)....... and they just ignore this and run back to Hebrews, a book-letter not written to the CHURCH, but to UNSAVED JEWS...... and then they get lost in it.

And why LEGALIST,..... does God not hold you accountable, in Eternity, for your sin that you do tomorrow and next week?
A.) Because God already held Jesus accountable on the CROSS for them ALL.
Understand? as this is so so important for you to understand.

A Legalist will take a verse out of Matthew, given before Jesus was on the Cross, that is not NT doctrine for the Blood Bought Redeemed Church, and use this verse out of context to prove to themselves they can "lose it".(Their Salvation)
A Legalist thinks they are in Christ, then fall out of Christ when they sin, and if they confess = do penance or whatever other deeds they can come up with, they get back INTO Christ.
However, Christ has contradicted you, as He said "I will never leave you or forsake you"...so, "Christ in you, the hope of Glory", is a fact, that you need to start believing.

A Legalist actually believes they are saved untill they sin, then confess, and are saved again, ... as if Salvation is a type of Yo-Yo, of sinning confessing, sinning confessing, sinning confessing.....up down, up down.,... kinda crazy, isn't it?
And all of this confusion and chaos is not only the misunderstanding the Blood Atonement, its also not giving FULL Credit DUE to the finished work of Jesus on the Cross.... and that is the REAL issue, for the Legalist.

You're missing one minor point.... we need grace because we fall short. What is it we can't do that calls for the need for grace? Got an answer? Now ask yourself, why would we need grace if that thing no longer exists?

And incidentally... as somebody that you would call a legalist (because we believe in obedience to our Lord) I don't believe nor do I know anyone who believes that we lose our salvation if we mess up. If we could have no-messed-up our way into God's grace, there would have been no need for messiah!

PROPHECYKID · May 1, 2019

St_Worm2 said:
Hi again PROPHECYKID, that's what I've been doing for nearly 33 years now (since I became a Christian), so it would be pretty difficult for me to disagree with you

That said, our salvation and the forgiveness of/satisfaction for our sins .. past, present and future .. is by grace alone, on the basis of the works which were done for us by Jesus alone. We continue to seek forgiveness as Christians whenever we sin ~because~ we are saved, because we want to please and obey the One who saved us and has loved us from everlasting, yes?

Thanks!

--David

Yes that is true but why would God ask us to confess our sins if its irrelevant? There is nothing that God tells us to do that is without purpose. John 1:9 says to me that if we confess he is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us. The word cleanse is important. When we sin we need cleansing. When Jesus comes back he is going to be destroying sin completely, if we are tainted by sin and not cleansed we will be destroyed. Remember, what we are saved from is sin and its penalty. So if my bible tells me to confess my sin so that God can cleanse me, and I cannot find any verse in the bible to say that whenever I sin I am automatically cleansed then I will stick to that.

Here is another verse which says to me clearly that God does not automatically forgive all future sins.

Matt 6:14-15 - For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

This would be irrelevant if all future sins are already forgiven. When the disciples asked Jesus to teach them how to pray he included asking for forgiveness in there and that illustrates its importance. Another thing to keep in mind is that Jesus is now our high priest making intercession for us. The bible clearly makes this known. People misunderstand the idea of Christ's finished work. He finished what he came to earth to do but he took on a different role and is now out high priest making intercession for us. Now if all future sins are already forgiven, why is he making any intercession for us. He makes intercession when we approach the throne of grace.

Rom_8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Heb_7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Kaon · May 1, 2019

DeepWater said:
The reality is........The Blood of Christ has already cleansed our Sin.....all of it.....>Tomorrow's included.
"Where SIN abounds...Grace moreso Abounds".... = means....when you sin, after you are saved, the Blood Atonement has already paid for that one ALSO.... It means that when you sin a year from now, on a Monday morning, just before you come here to argue about OSAS, and you sin....THE CROSS has already taken care of that one also.
Realize the revelation that something that happened 2000 years ago on a CROSS, is still your Salvation 20 yrs from NOW !

If a Legalist could actually comprehend that you can't out-sin the BLOOD of CHRIST, that this blood, has actively and permanently SOLVED your "sin" issue, then what a happy Christian they would be, as then they could actually Trust Christ, totally., and not just partly, and then they have to work the rest of their way into heaven.
This is why Jesus died for you. Its what He's doing on the Cross. He is Paying for (cleansing) our sin, from us, by dying FOR IT ALL.
Amazing how many people who claim to be Christians can't even begin to comprehend SALVATION.
Legalists don't understand that the CROSS is a completed work (Blood Atonement), so, they reach into the bible with eyes closed, and never care to learn or realize that not every verse is aimed at a born again believer.

Now, for those of you who have not been taught anything about your NT, or your bible in general..... Scriptures in the NT, and OT< are sometimes literal, sometimes symbolic, and sometimes allegorical....in meaning.
For example, "all who call on the name of Jesus, shall be SAVED"...is literal.
But, "take this cup, as its the blood of the New Covenant"...... this can't be LITERAL, as Jesus's blood is still in HIS BODY, when He's drinking the cup.

See it? ?

A legalist does not understand that "where there is no law, there is no transgression".....as "Christ has ABOLISHED THE LAW"..... is in the NT, reader. Ephesians 2:15
A legalist, reads Romans 4:8, where they are told that God does not hold them accountable, for sin...(impute)....... and they just ignore this and run back to Hebrews, a book-letter not written to the CHURCH, but to UNSAVED JEWS...... and then they get lost in it.

And why LEGALIST,..... does God not hold you accountable, in Eternity, for your sin that you do tomorrow and next week?
A.) Because God already held Jesus accountable on the CROSS for them ALL.
Understand? as this is so so important for you to understand.

A Legalist will take a verse out of Matthew, given before Jesus was on the Cross, that is not NT doctrine for the Blood Bought Redeemed Church, and use this verse out of context to prove to themselves they can "lose it".(Their Salvation)
A Legalist thinks they are in Christ, then fall out of Christ when they sin, and if they confess = do penance or whatever other deeds they can come up with, they get back INTO Christ.
However, Christ has contradicted you, as He said "I will never leave you or forsake you"...so, "Christ in you, the hope of Glory", is a fact, that you need to start believing.

A Legalist actually believes they are saved untill they sin, then confess, and are saved again, ... as if Salvation is a type of Yo-Yo, of sinning confessing, sinning confessing, sinning confessing.....up down, up down.,... kinda crazy, isn't it?
And all of this confusion and chaos is not only the misunderstanding the Blood Atonement, its also not giving FULL Credit DUE to the finished work of Jesus on the Cross.... and that is the REAL issue, for the Legalist.

Show one place where the Word Of God Himself, or the Most High God ever said the Law was abolished, that those who want to be His people don't have to follow certain laws, and/or that any part of the Law has been changed or removed.

It sounds nice on paper, the OP - AND I agree that those who follow the Law for salvation's sake are missing the point. But, before I run with what men say (no matter how heralded), I would like to compare it to what the Word of God Himself says since He is the authority on the Law (not Moses, John, Elijah, Peter, Paul...)

Everything I have heard from the Most High God, and Word of God Himself is that none of the Law has been made void, and obedience is still an important facet of love and faith.

Kaon · May 1, 2019

Ken Rank said:
You're missing one minor point.... we need grace because we fall short. What is it we can't do that calls for the need for grace? Got an answer? Now ask yourself, why would we need grace if that thing no longer exists?

And incidentally... as somebody that you would call a legalist (because we believe in obedience to our Lord) I don't believe nor do I know anyone who believes that we lose our salvation if we mess up. If we could have no-messed-up our way into God's grace, there would have been no need for messiah!

Right.

The Grace means we can work on refining ourselves with our Father and come to sanctification without worrying about our sin condemning us to hell. He has removed the "performance anxiety" so that we can simply grow in Him without losing confidence in our walk in obedience to Him - which is one of the things that pleases Him.

Ken Rank · May 1, 2019

Kaon said:
without worrying about our sin condemning us to hell

Exactly right. Grace means we are free to worship and serve and even make a mistake without fear of condemnation. It isn't a license to makes mistakes, it just means knowing we will, we don't have to fear them because God expects us to make mistakes and learn from them.

DeepWater · May 1, 2019

Maria Billingsley said:
So that being said, what does repentance mean to you?
From these verses one must also repent or else.

Well the Gospel of the Grace of God, is not a bumper sticker that says...."turn or burn".
Its really not.
But in fact, if a person rejects Grace....rejects the offer of forgiveness through the Blood of Jesus, that God offers "freely to all who would come", then yes, they have chosen to meet God as their Eternal Judge when they die, and they will suffer the consequences of rejecting Christ, for eternity.
They CHOSE this for themselves, and that is why they can't honestly accusing God of "sending them to hell", ...He is simply accepting their choice to NOT stay in Heaven, as they chose this for themselves, when they rejected Christ.
Hell, then the Lake of Fire..........these are a FINAL DESTINATION, just Like Heaven is a FINAL DESTINATION. And everybody who is still breathing, gets to choose which they will have as their eternity.
Hell is a choice.....to choose, ....>Heaven is a choice to choose, and God honors your choice after you DIE. !

Christ, The savior, says......Choose for yourself where you end up, in the end. Choose to come with me, and you will.......Reject me, and you don't end up with me.
Final answer.
This is not a myth.
This is not Zeus, and the Easter Bunny, and the Story of Atlantis.
There is a living God who came to this earth and died for US< and He means business.
He is just as serious about all this = as that Cross made Jesus SUFFER.

I wrote yesterday to a Legalist here, that the NT says that Jesus was "marred beyond recognition" even before he started to carry the Cross to Calvary. They didnt just lash the meat off much of His body, they also beat his face to the point that he was not recognizable...
His face was a beaten, swollen, bloody, mask of pain, even before He carried the Cross and was finally staked to the tree.
And God didn't do this for Himself......He did it for all of US....even the worst of us..... the worst, the most ungodly....God shed His blood to SAVE and KEEP, in Eternity.
The truth is, the punishment for Christ rejection, once imparted to a person who has died a Christ rejector, never having been born again...is beyond our comprehension.....Their judgment, will last for as long as God exists.
Never-ending.
The NT is not kidding when it says..>"its a FEARFUL thing to fall into the hands of THE Living GOD".

So, to your question.....
What type repentance are you speaking about, Maria?
There are 2 types.
There is the carnal type, and there is the Godly type.

Let me explain... The carnal type of repentance, is when a person with zero conscience gets caught, and they are sorry they got caught.
That's one type of repentance.

But then there is the Godly type of repentance.
This type of repentance is a contrite heart, a brokenness, that is not because you are sorry you got caught, or sorry that your husband is leaving you, because he found out you are unfaithful.
No.
The Godly type of repentance is when your brokenness is not simply because you are sorry for what you've done, but you are sorry for what you ARE., what you have become.
Its a realization, of just what a human being really is......the knowing, the understanding of the adamic nature, and seeing yourself as God sees you......Lost, unclean, sinner... "filthy rags".... = "self".
So, when this happens inside a person, its because the Holy Spirit is working, is convicting, is drawing, is leading you into this type of Godly repentance, and then you reach out to God for Christ and you believe and God saves you.
SALVATION. <
So, THAT is the real repentance, and not, the phony....self inflicted, "look everyone, are my tears fooling you, as im really trying here"....."see"...."look at me"...

BNR32FAN · May 1, 2019

DeepWater said:
The reality is........The Blood of Christ has already cleansed our Sin.....all of it.....>Tomorrow's included.
"Where SIN abounds...Grace moreso Abounds".... = means....when you sin, after you are saved, the Blood Atonement has already paid for that one ALSO.... It means that when you sin a year from now, on a Monday morning, just before you come here to argue about OSAS, and you sin....THE CROSS has already taken care of that one also.
Realize the revelation that something that happened 2000 years ago on a CROSS, is still your Salvation 20 yrs from NOW !

If a Legalist could actually comprehend that you can't out-sin the BLOOD of CHRIST, that this blood, has actively and permanently SOLVED your "sin" issue, then what a happy Christian they would be, as then they could actually Trust Christ, totally., and not just partly, and then they have to work the rest of their way into heaven.
This is why Jesus died for you. Its what He's doing on the Cross. He is Paying for (cleansing) our sin, from us, by dying FOR IT ALL.
Amazing how many people who claim to be Christians can't even begin to comprehend SALVATION.
Legalists don't understand that the CROSS is a completed work (Blood Atonement), so, they reach into the bible with eyes closed, and never care to learn or realize that not every verse is aimed at a born again believer.

Now, for those of you who have not been taught anything about your NT, or your bible in general..... Scriptures in the NT, and OT< are sometimes literal, sometimes symbolic, and sometimes allegorical....in meaning.
For example, "all who call on the name of Jesus, shall be SAVED"...is literal.
But, "take this cup, as its the blood of the New Covenant"...... this can't be LITERAL, as Jesus's blood is still in HIS BODY, when He's drinking the cup.

See it? ?

A legalist does not understand that "where there is no law, there is no transgression".....as "Christ has ABOLISHED THE LAW"..... is in the NT, reader. Ephesians 2:15
A legalist, reads Romans 4:8, where they are told that God does not hold them accountable, for sin...(impute)....... and they just ignore this and run back to Hebrews, a book-letter not written to the CHURCH, but to UNSAVED JEWS...... and then they get lost in it.

And why LEGALIST,..... does God not hold you accountable, in Eternity, for your sin that you do tomorrow and next week?
A.) Because God already held Jesus accountable on the CROSS for them ALL.
Understand? as this is so so important for you to understand.

A Legalist will take a verse out of Matthew, given before Jesus was on the Cross, that is not NT doctrine for the Blood Bought Redeemed Church, and use this verse out of context to prove to themselves they can "lose it".(Their Salvation)
A Legalist thinks they are in Christ, then fall out of Christ when they sin, and if they confess = do penance or whatever other deeds they can come up with, they get back INTO Christ.
However, Christ has contradicted you, as He said "I will never leave you or forsake you"...so, "Christ in you, the hope of Glory", is a fact, that you need to start believing.

A Legalist actually believes they are saved untill they sin, then confess, and are saved again, ... as if Salvation is a type of Yo-Yo, of sinning confessing, sinning confessing, sinning confessing.....up down, up down.,... kinda crazy, isn't it?
And all of this confusion and chaos is not only the misunderstanding the Blood Atonement, its also not giving FULL Credit DUE to the finished work of Jesus on the Cross.... and that is the REAL issue, for the Legalist.

We are no longer under the letter of the law we are now under the purpose for which the laws were written. Paul never said we don’t have to obey God’s commandments he said we cannot be justified (made right with God) by keeping God’s commandments. What we are still and always have been obligated to is the two commandments Jesus gave that encompass the purpose for which all the commandments and the law were written which is love God with all your heart, soul, and mind and love each other as Jesus loves us. If you keep these two simple commandments you will automatically keep the purpose for which the law was written. Paul’s message was never a message of lawlessness. Keep in mind his warning to these very same Ephesians in the same letter in chapter 5 where he warns the very same children of God of living in sin to which the wrath of God intended for the sins of disobedience would also fall upon them and the result would be that they would have no inheritance in the kingdom of God. That doesn’t sound like we can just live however we want just because we believe and expect to be saved. Jesus refers to such “believers” in Matthew 7:21-23.

“"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'”
‭‭MATTHEW‬ ‭7:21-23‬ ‭NASB‬‬

BNR32FAN · May 1, 2019

DeepWater said:
Well the Gospel of the Grace of God, is not a bumper sticker that says...."turn or burn".
Its really not.
But in fact, if a person rejects Grace....rejects the offer of forgiveness through the Blood of Jesus, that God offers "freely to all who would come", then yes, they have chosen to meet God as their Eternal Judge when they die, and they will suffer the consequences of rejecting Christ, for eternity.
They CHOSE this for themselves, and that is why they can't honestly accusing God of "sending them to hell", ...He is simply accepting their choice to NOT stay in Heaven, as they chose this for themselves, when they rejected Christ.
Hell, then the Lake of Fire..........these are a FINAL DESTINATION, just Like Heaven is a FINAL DESTINATION. And everybody who is still breathing, gets to choose which they will have as their eternity.
Hell is a choice.....to choose, ....>Heaven is a choice to choose, and God honors your choice after you DIE. !

Christ, The savior, says......Choose for yourself where you end up, in the end. Choose to come with me, and you will.......Reject me, and you don't end up with me.
Final answer.
This is not a myth.
This is not Zeus, and the Easter Bunny, and the Story of Atlantis.
There is a living God who came to this earth and died for US< and He means business.
He is just as serious about all this = as that Cross made Jesus SUFFER.

I wrote yesterday to a Legalist here, that the NT says that Jesus was "marred beyond recognition" even before he started to carry the Cross to Calvary. They didnt just lash the meat off much of His body, they also beat his face to the point that he was not recognizable...
His face was a beaten, swollen, bloody, mask of pain, even before He carried the Cross and was finally staked to the tree.
And God didn't do this for Himself......He did it for all of US....even the worst of us..... the worst, the most ungodly....God shed His blood to SAVE and KEEP, in Eternity.
The truth is, the punishment for Christ rejection, once imparted to a person who has died a Christ rejector, never having been born again...is beyond our comprehension.....Their judgment, will last for as long as God exists.
Never-ending.
The NT is not kidding when it says..>"its a FEARFUL thing to fall into the hands of THE Living GOD".

So, to your question.....
What type repentance are you speaking about, Maria?
There are 2 types.
There is the carnal type, and there is the Godly type.

Let me explain... The carnal type of repentance, is when a person with zero conscience gets caught, and they are sorry they got caught.
That's one type of repentance.

But then there is the Godly type of repentance.
This type of repentance is a contrite heart, a brokenness, that is not because you are sorry you got caught, or sorry that your husband is leaving you, because he found out you are unfaithful.
No.
The Godly type of repentance is when your brokenness is not simply because you are sorry for what you've done, but you are sorry for what you ARE., what you have become.
Its a realization, of just what a human being really is......the knowing, the understanding of the adamic nature, and seeing yourself as God sees you......Lost, unclean, sinner... "filthy rags".... = "self".
So, when this happens inside a person, its because the Holy Spirit is working, is convicting, is drawing, is leading you into this type of Godly repentance, and then you reach out to God for Christ and you believe and God saves you.
SALVATION. <
So, THAT is the real repentance, and not, the phony....self inflicted, "look everyone, are my tears fooling you, as im really trying here"....."see"...."look at me"...

Repentance or metanoia is actually not remorse at all. It’s a change of mind or way of life. It’s a 180 degree change in direction turning away from sin and towards God.

Grace vs Legalism

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