Halbhh

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A proud man trusts in his own resources and considers them enough to establish his credentials without God. A humble man lives in the recognition that all that we have comes from the Divine and that all that we can be must be realised with and in Him. But if you focus on the pride of a man it is as if you blame him for the freewill choice to consider himself independently from God rather than embracing the proper perspective of oneself and others that comes with knowing God

Not quite sure I have the right thing you meant, but my thought is we have innately (were created to have) freedom of choice so that we can choose to be more or less prideful, in our thinking, even before we are saved. One can point out that the conscience that helps a person be humble comes from above, and that's surely true at least in that everything comes from above. I think what fits scripture most broadly is that somehow God has given us true agency, true autonomy, a real ability to make real choices, and it seems that at least some of our conscience, or our conscience before being transformed into new life in Christ, still had originally some degree of ability to relate with others in love, and since pride is a rejecting of the other, seeing oneself as better, an anti-love act, it seems volitional. But, then enters also the world and the deceiver, and the battle is wide.
 
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mindlight

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The Bible reveals God's full control over the world. He "predestined" people "to be conformed to the image of His Son" (Rom. 8:29, 30), to be adopted as His children, and to obtain an inheritance (Eph. 1:4, 5, 11)

The Bible clearly states that God "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:4). He is "not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9).

There is no evidence that God has decreed that some persons should be lost; such a decree would deny Calvary, where Jesus died for everyone. The whoever in the text, "'For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life'" (John 3:16), means that anyone can be saved.

The bible does not teach universalism.
 
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eleos1954

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The bible does not teach universalism.

No, it does not ... didn't say it does.

Salvation is available through Jesus (He made it possible) for everyone ... that is not saying (nor did I say) that everyone will be saved ... of course not. People who accept Jesus as their savior ... He begins changing them ... conforming them to His image.

2 Peter 3:9

9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

2 Corinthians 5:17

Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

Ezekiel 36:26

"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

He provided the way one might be saved.

John 14

6Jesus answered, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
 
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HatGuy

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Preparing a sermon on John 10:22-30 I was struck by Jesus phrase - "you do not believe because are not my sheep..my sheep hear my voice"

If the only people who can see what Jesus does and understand how it affirms him as the Messiah are those predestined for an eternity with God then why bother speaking to the unsaved at all.

Is the message here that only Christians will interpret attempts to live like Jesus correctly and so words are wasted on those not chosen to believe, those who are not and never will be his sheep

In which case does Jesus say this only for those who love Him so that they understand the gulf between those eternally saved and those who are dammed. Or do his words fix that gulf for the unsaved who hear them and are thus condemned to darkness

This passage seems to affirm double predestination to me.
Vs 16 is key as it shows that Jesus's point is that those that thought they were "in" with God were actually out (the Pharisees). They don't know His voice. And in vs 16 he says there are other sheep too, alluding to the Gentiles. In other words, this verse affirms universal atonement if anything - that any can become his sheep. His sheep are not limited to bloodline. And only His sheep know His voice.

I don't see any reason to read predestination and even less, double predestination in these verses.
 
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mindlight

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No, it does not ... didn't say it does.

Salvation is available through Jesus (He made it possible) for everyone ... that is not saying (nor did I say) that everyone will be saved ... of course not. People who accept Jesus as their savior ... He begins changing them ... conforming them to His image.

2 Peter 3:9

9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

2 Corinthians 5:17

Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

Ezekiel 36:26

"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

He provided the way one might be saved.

John 14

6Jesus answered, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

OK sorry then I misunderstood you. I agree salvation is potentially available to anyone. But it seems to me that God already knows who will accept the gift and who not. And yes you are correct salvation is only through Christ.
 
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mindlight

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Vs 16 is key as it shows that Jesus's point is that those that thought they were "in" with God were actually out (the Pharisees). They don't know His voice. And in vs 16 he says there are other sheep too, alluding to the Gentiles. In other words, this verse affirms universal atonement if anything - that any can become his sheep. His sheep are not limited to bloodline. And only His sheep know His voice.

I don't see any reason to read predestination and even less, double predestination in these verses.

The rejection by large segments of the Jews of what Jesus had to say is very clear from this chapter as a whole. They even considered what he was saying blasphemous since the implication of his words was that not only was He the Messiah but equal to God Himself. So what has been freely offered to all will not be accepted by all even if the rejection of the Jewish party guests as unworthy of the invitations they received has opened up a way for gentiles to be saved.

I do not actually believe in double predestination because God in allowing a freewill response to his grace and mercy is not determining the response in the way that the label predestination seems to demand. He is fully aware however of what will happen and who will be saved and who not. He knows who are His and who are not His. The words Jesus speaks defining on the one hand his sheep and the not-sheep are in part a response to the unbelief and scepticism and even anger he hears in their hearts and partly the Divine affirmation of their choice - in this case the wrong one. It reminds me of the passage where God hardened the heart of Pharoah so Gods glory could be demonstrated despite his opposition. Jesus encounters the saved and the unsaved alike but he does not force them to choose damnation that is something they do in response to who He is and what He does and says.
 
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eleos1954

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OK sorry then I misunderstood you. I agree salvation is potentially available to anyone. But it seems to me that God already knows who will accept the gift and who not. And yes you are correct salvation is only through Christ.

Yes, He has foreknowledge ... he knows who will accept the free gift of salvation but does not make (predetermine) their choices for them.

God Bless.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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Preparing a sermon on John 10:22-30 I was struck by Jesus phrase - "you do not believe because are not my sheep..my sheep hear my voice"

If the only people who can see what Jesus does and understand how it affirms him as the Messiah are those predestined for an eternity with God then why bother speaking to the unsaved at all.

Is the message here that only Christians will interpret attempts to live like Jesus correctly and so words are wasted on those not chosen to believe, those who are not and never will be his sheep

In which case does Jesus say this only for those who love Him so that they understand the gulf between those eternally saved and those who are dammed. Or do his words fix that gulf for the unsaved who hear them and are thus condemned to darkness

This passage seems to affirm double predestination to me.
I believe you overlook the powerful passage in Romans...
Romans 10:17:
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

According to the above passage we must speak to the unsaved...speaking the Gospel message...in hopes that the Word will save them; that is we presuppose that God can save them as His elect.
As for those who hear and reject God's saving message they will indeed be damned.
Preparing a sermon? Are you missing the basics in your faith or is this a set up?
 
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dqhall

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Preparing a sermon on John 10:22-30 I was struck by Jesus phrase - "you do not believe because are not my sheep..my sheep hear my voice"

If the only people who can see what Jesus does and understand how it affirms him as the Messiah are those predestined for an eternity with God then why bother speaking to the unsaved at all.

Is the message here that only Christians will interpret attempts to live like Jesus correctly and so words are wasted on those not chosen to believe, those who are not and never will be his sheep

In which case does Jesus say this only for those who love Him so that they understand the gulf between those eternally saved and those who are dammed. Or do his words fix that gulf for the unsaved who hear them and are thus condemned to darkness

This passage seems to affirm double predestination to me.
I recall testimony I read. Two shepherds used the same sheep pen to keep their sheep protected overnight. In the morning one shepherd would call to his sheep for them to follow. The sheep of his flock left the sheep pen and followed him while the other flock stayed behind. While traveling in Israel I saw flocks in the wilderness. Sometimes the sheep were grazing, sometimes moving to new pasture. Once I saw a shepherd on a donkey with his sheep following him.

Some of Jesus' neighbors did not believe him and followed the chief priests who declared Jesus' teachings blasphemy, for he did not deny he was the son of God. These priests and their followers were not of Jesus' flock. There were some in Capernaum, Bethsaida and Chorazin who had seen evidence of Jesus' miracles who wanted to please the chief priests and Herodians instead of proclaim Jesus' teachings.

Ezekiel 34
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Preparing a sermon on John 10:22-30 I was struck by Jesus phrase - "you do not believe because are not my sheep..my sheep hear my voice"

If the only people who can see what Jesus does and understand how it affirms him as the Messiah are those predestined for an eternity with God then why bother speaking to the unsaved at all.

Is the message here that only Christians will interpret attempts to live like Jesus correctly and so words are wasted on those not chosen to believe, those who are not and never will be his sheep

In which case does Jesus say this only for those who love Him so that they understand the gulf between those eternally saved and those who are dammed. Or do his words fix that gulf for the unsaved who hear them and are thus condemned to darkness

This passage seems to affirm double predestination to me.
Don't worry about any kind of predestination - that's man's terms, usually, not God's.

Rather, as written in Scripture, to everyone who reads and hears:

Hebrews 3:14-19 Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)
14 For we a]">[a]have become fellows with Christ (the Messiah) and share in all He has for us,

if only
we hold our first newborn confidence and original assured expectation [in virtue of which we are believers] firm and unshaken to the end.

15 Then while it is [still] called Today, if you would hear His voice and when you hear it, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion [in the desert, when the people provoked and irritated and embittered God against them].

16 For who were they who heard and yet were rebellious and provoked [Him]? Was it not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses?

17 And with whom was He irritated and provoked and grieved for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose b]">[b]dismembered bodies were strewn and left in the desert?

18 And to whom did He swear that they should not enter His rest, but to those who disobeyed [who had not listened to His word and who refused to be compliant or be persuaded]?

19 So we see that they were not able to enter [into His rest], because of their unwillingness to adhere to and trust in and rely on God [unbelief had shut them out].

Chapter 5: (see who )
11 Concerning this we have much to say which is hard to explain, since you have become dull in your [spiritual] hearing and sluggish [even f]">[f]slothful in achieving spiritual insight].

12 For even though by this time you ought to be teaching others, you actually need someone to teach you over again the very first principles of God’s Word. You have come to need milk, not solid food.

13 For everyone who continues to feed on milk is obviously inexperienced and unskilled in the doctrine of righteousness (of conformity to the divine will in purpose, thought, and action), for he is a mere infant [not able to talk yet]!


CHapter 6:
3 If indeed God permits, we will [now] proceed [to advanced teaching].

4 For it is impossible [to restore and bring again to repentance] those who have been once for all enlightened, who have consciously tasted the heavenly gift and have become sharers of the Holy Spirit,

(so many stern warnings)

6 If they then deviate from the faith and turn away from their allegiance—[it is impossible] to bring them back to repentance, for (because, while, as long as) they nail upon the cross the Son of God afresh [as far as they are concerned] and are holding [Him] up to contempt and shame and public disgrace.

7 For the soil which has drunk the rain that repeatedly falls upon it and produces vegetation useful to those for whose benefit it is cultivated partakes of a blessing from God.

8 But if [that same soil] persistently bears thorns and thistles, it is considered worthless and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
 
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OK sorry then I misunderstood you. I agree salvation is potentially available to anyone. But it seems to me that God already knows who will accept the gift and who not. And yes you are correct salvation is only through Christ.
1 Peter 1:1-2 convinced me that God knows in advance who is going to choose for Christ. That is the only way an elect person's name can be written into the Book of Life from the foundation of the world.
 
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redleghunter

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Paul should be read to fit together with Peter, John, James, and Christ -- truth fitting together with truth. Paul also said no one should try to follow himself instead of Christ. Perhaps you already agree on that, in which case it's unclear what you are saying.
Yes when considering the text there must be harmonization between different authors/writers. That is why the James 2:17 quote does not negate the entire book of Romans as some try to attempt to do.
 
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mindlight

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I recall testimony I read. Two shepherds used the same sheep pen to keep their sheep protected overnight. In the morning one shepherd would call to his sheep for them to follow. The sheep of his flock left the sheep pen and followed him while the other flock stayed behind. While traveling in Israel I saw flocks in the wilderness. Sometimes the sheep were grazing, sometimes moving to new pasture. Once I saw a shepherd on a donkey with his sheep following him.

Some of Jesus' neighbors did not believe him and followed the chief priests who declared Jesus' teachings blasphemy, for he did not deny he was the son of God. These priests and their followers were not of Jesus' flock. There were some in Capernaum, Bethsaida and Chorazin who had seen evidence of Jesus' miracles who wanted to please the chief priests and Herodians instead of proclaim Jesus' teachings.

Ezekiel 34

Yes and that is the essence of faith. We hear our masters voice, we trust its sound cause we know how he looks after us and we follow where he leads us.

Then there are those who do not hear his voice like we hear it. To them it is an irritating sound, leading them where they do not want to go from a person they neither love or trust.

The so called shepherds of the people the Herodians, Saducees and Pharisees rejected Jesus for different reasons. They told him that he had not told them who he was even though he performed miracles and taught in public for all to see. They sniped at him from the sidelines for not doing things the way they would do it because their allegiance was to another. They were not his sheep.

We do not have Jesus insight as to who will respond and who not. So we share a gospel by which anyone can be saved through Christ. But Jesus KNOWs who are his and who not. I have often been surprised by who is moved by a sermon and who is indifferent to it. Maybe it would not be that helpful a gift for a preacher to stare out at the congregation and see directly who has a black heart and who a shiny one as he might be tempted to silence if there was too much darkness, rather we share Christ and pray for the darkness to be banished by the hearing of Gods word and believing that Gods word will not return to Him empty but rather will accomplish the purpose for which he sends it.
 
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If a person believes because they are one of the sheep then that comes before faith. John 3:16 says that "whomsoever believes in me".. it does not describe the conditions by which people come to believe.

In a sense claims about predestination versus freewill take a step back from the moment when a person realises they believe. To earlier moments when they choose to do what is right , choose to associate with the good over the bad , choose to move closer to God without a declaration of all out faith that might get them saved. The balance between the Divine initiative and our freewills is the crucial conundrum here.
What is a conundrum?:
conundrum
/kəˈnʌndrəm/

noun
  1. a confusing and difficult problem or question.
There is no confusing and/or difficult question when it comes to God.

All we have to know is if God made us without the intention of loving us. If He DID, what kind of a god is he anyway? Not a very loving one, I'd say.

If you believe God made us to love us and so we could love, honor and obey HIM,,,then we have to accept that He will, in His mercy, give each one of us an opportunity to be saved, IF we WANT to be.

God draws ALL MEN to Himself...

Romans 1:19-20
John 12:32

It's up to each one of us to respond or not...

Acts 16:30-31
 
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Maria Billingsley

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my sheep hear my voice
This means those who have the Holy Spirit hear His voice. All Christians who walk in faith hear His voice. This is not audible, it is Spiritual.
 
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Halbhh

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Preparing a sermon on John 10:22-30 I was struck by Jesus phrase - "you do not believe because are not my sheep..my sheep hear my voice"

If the only people who can see what Jesus does and understand how it affirms him as the Messiah are those predestined for an eternity with God then why bother speaking to the unsaved at all.

Is the message here that only Christians will interpret attempts to live like Jesus correctly and so words are wasted on those not chosen to believe, those who are not and never will be his sheep

In which case does Jesus say this only for those who love Him so that they understand the gulf between those eternally saved and those who are dammed. Or do his words fix that gulf for the unsaved who hear them and are thus condemned to darkness

This passage seems to affirm double predestination to me.
The next few words: "...and I know them, and they follow me."

His sheep listen, and follow Him.

Then no one can take them from His hand. It's just like Matthew 7:24-27.
 
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setst777

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Preparing a sermon on John 10:22-30 I was struck by Jesus phrase - "you do not believe because are not my sheep..my sheep hear my voice"

If the only people who can see what Jesus does and understand how it affirms him as the Messiah are those predestined for an eternity with God then why bother speaking to the unsaved at all.

Is the message here that only Christians will interpret attempts to live like Jesus correctly and so words are wasted on those not chosen to believe, those who are not and never will be his sheep

In which case does Jesus say this only for those who love Him so that they understand the gulf between those eternally saved and those who are dammed. Or do his words fix that gulf for the unsaved who hear them and are thus condemned to darkness

This passage seems to affirm double predestination to me.

Hi. Thoughtful questions that require a thoughtful response...

When we view the OT, did not God promise to guide, teach and save the humble and to bring them justice? Yes.

The humble are the sheep God favors and calls His own.

And remember, that the Spirit was not sent to regenerate believers in the OT - that is only for the NT. And note that the regeneration of the indwelling Spirit is only received by faith. See vs 38 below...

John 7:37-39
37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified..

God looked upon the humble with favor and made sure promises to them which God destined to fulfill in Christ Jesus...

The Sheep are the humble. Christ Jesus was specifically sent by the Father to preach to the Humble to fulfill His promises to them and because they will listen and believe.

Isaiah 61:1-2 (Jesus applied this prophecy to himself)
1 The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me, because the Lord has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners, 2 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor

Psalms 25:9 (WEB)
9 He will guide the humble in justice.
He will teach the humble his way.

Lord Jesus taught about the sheep as well as the goats. For instance, read Matthew 25:31-46

What does the word "sheep" refer to?
Answer: Those who are meek and humble.

What do the "goats" refer to?
Answer: Those who are stubborn and arrogant.

Who did Christ come to preach the Gospel to?
Answer: The humble.

So which ones will believe in and follow in Jesus - the sheep or the goats?

John 10:27 (WEB)
27
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

"My sheep" are those sheep God the Father sent the Son to save according to His promises.

Those who are humble will listen to God and so believe. Those who believe receive the Spirit and regeneration:

John 7:38-39
38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive.

The goats (those who are self-righteous) will not listen to God.

God is righteous in that He hardens in judgement those who repeatedly reject His grace. Those that keep hardening their hearts to God's grace are the Goats. God may use this hardening to fulfill another purpose, as God did with Pharaoh, or even with Elect Israel - so the humble among the Gentiles could be grafted in.

The reason some people are goats or sheep is by their own choice, for God continually calls on the willful and stubborn to humble themselves and repent, but their is a limit to God's patience with those who continually reject His grace. So if someone perishes, it is their own fault.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-11 (NIV) 10 They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie.

Romans 1:28 (WEB)
28 Even as they refused to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting

Romans 1:21-25
21 Because, knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, neither gave thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 and traded the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed animals, and creeping things. 24 Therefore God also gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

In like manner, God declares many times how Israel is rebellious toward him and hard-hearted and would not listen. In this respect, most of the Jews were goats by choice. And God gave them over to their stubbornness and hardened them.

Ezekiel 3:7 (WEB)
7 But the house of Israel will not listen to you; for they will not listen to me: for all the house of Israel are obstinate and hard-hearted.

So God hardened the hearts of His Elect people in judgement.

God will show Mercy on whom he shows mercy...

Regarding salvation, God wills to show mercy on all...

Romans 11:32 (WEB)
32 For God has shut up all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on all.

However, only those who humble themselves and repent and believe receive the mercy that God wills to give to the sinner (John 3:16).

Luke 18:13-14
13 But the tax collector, standing far away, wouldn’t even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

So HOW did God say he would save us?

John 10:9 (WEB)
9 I am the door. If anyone enters in by me, he will be saved, and will go in and go out, and will find pasture.

John 3:16-17
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him.

Romans 10:8-12 (WEB)
4 For Christ is the fulfillment of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. ...
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth, and in your heart”; that is, the word of faith, which we preach:
9 that if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart, one believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in him will not be disappointed.”
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich to all who call on him.

In summary:

God designed the Gospel to save only those who humble themselves. These are the sheep God promised to save. The goats will laugh at the Gospel as foolishness.
 
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Preparing a sermon on John 10:22-30 I was struck by Jesus phrase - "you do not believe because are not my sheep..my sheep hear my voice"

If the only people who can see what Jesus does and understand how it affirms him as the Messiah are those predestined for an eternity with God then why bother speaking to the unsaved at all.

Is the message here that only Christians will interpret attempts to live like Jesus correctly and so words are wasted on those not chosen to believe, those who are not and never will be his sheep

In which case does Jesus say this only for those who love Him so that they understand the gulf between those eternally saved and those who are dammed. Or do his words fix that gulf for the unsaved who hear them and are thus condemned to darkness

This passage seems to affirm double predestination to me.

Personally, I picture Jesus speaking in John 6, as I read this. Jesus addresses many, but by John 6:66, many leave Him... specifically because of what Jesus says earlier in John 6 and especially what He says in John 6:63.

Humility and Compassion are at the core of hearing Jesus. Some hate compassion and cling to pride. The result of this is a hardening. It is the very will of pride and callous heart of a persons choosing that deafens a person’s ears to God. Determinism based Predestination places rejection of God on God, while Jesus always said that those in darkness “refused” to hear Him. He spoke to them, but they denied and scorned Him. They refused to hear and believe.

Predestination past... the Lamb prepared before the foundation was laid, is far too contradictory of Jesus overarching teachings to apply as it is proposed by extra biblical, determinist, theological pondering.

We are compelled to Love as Christ Loves and serve as Christ serves. Not in righteousness, as God alone is righteous and Good... but in the Love our neighbor as our self, sense.

There is no room to separate the wheat from the chaff, theologically... if we are to share grace as He shares grace.

Predestination of the Determinists understanding is incompatible with 1 Corinthians 13 Love that is embodied in the 1 John 4:8 of the matter. IMO
 
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mindlight

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Personally, I picture Jesus speaking in John 6, as I read this. Jesus addresses many, but by John 6:66, many leave Him... specifically because of what Jesus says earlier in John 6 and especially what He says in John 6:63.

Humility and Compassion are at the core of hearing Jesus. Some hate compassion and cling to pride. The result of this is a hardening. It is the very will of pride and callous heart of a persons choosing that deafens a person’s ears to God. Determinism based Predestination places rejection of God on God, while Jesus always said that those in darkness “refused” to hear Him. He spoke to them, but they denied and scorned Him. They refused to hear and believe.

Predestination past... the Lamb prepared before the foundation was laid, is far too contradictory of Jesus overarching teachings to apply as it is proposed by extra biblical, determinist, theological pondering.

We are compelled to Love as Christ Loves and serve as Christ serves. Not in righteousness, as God alone is righteous and Good... but in the Love our neighbor as our self, sense.

There is no room to separate the wheat from the chaff, theologically... if we are to share grace as He shares grace.

Predestination of the Determinists understanding is incompatible with 1 Corinthians 13 Love that is embodied in the 1 John 4:8 of the matter. IMO

We have freewill, but when God purposes a thing it comes to pass.

In the calling of Jeremiah we have this verse Jer 1:5

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations

Jeremiah was born for his role as prophet. He may have chosen freely to cooperate with Gods calling on his life, as God always knew he would, but it was clear he was "predestined" for his role.

Yes humility, openness to the new and beautiful beyond self defined borders and the presence of Gods regenerative Spirit are preconditions to our free acceptance of Gods grace. But if God creates us with a predisposition that more easily allows for this acceptance or a predisposition that makes that harder some will be more easily saved than others. Ultimately anyone even against all the odds presented by their genetics, history and environment can become a Christian but it is easier to become one in a Christian country, from a Christian family than it is in the Muslim world for instance. That is not puppetry but nor is it a level playing field for all who can choose to accept Christ.

Double predestination may be the wrong way to describe Gods purposeful planning for salvation. Maybe God could have designed a universe in which it was easier for all to choose Him without losing the agency and freedom he values as an attribute of the true believer. But if this is the best possible universe for people to be properly saved with their dignity and freedom intact then it is God who made it easier for some and harder for others to be saved.
 
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Grip Docility

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We have freewill, but when God purposes a thing it comes to pass.

In the calling of Jeremiah we have this verse Jer 1:5

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations

Jeremiah was born for his role as prophet. He may have chosen freely to cooperate with Gods calling on his life, as God always knew he would, but it was clear he was "predestined" for his role.

Yes humility, openness to the new and beautiful beyond self defined borders and the presence of Gods regenerative Spirit are preconditions to our free acceptance of Gods grace. But if God creates us with a predisposition that more easily allows for this acceptance or a predisposition that makes that harder some will be more easily saved than others. Ultimately anyone even against all the odds presented by their genetics, history and environment can become a Christian but it is easier to become one in a Christian country, from a Christian family than it is in the Muslim world for instance. That is not puppetry but nor is it a level playing field for all who can choose to accept Christ.

Double predestination may be the wrong way to describe Gods purposeful planning for salvation. Maybe God could have designed a universe in which it was easier for all to choose Him without losing the agency and freedom he values as an attribute of the true believer. But if this is the best possible universe for people to be properly saved with their dignity and freedom intact then it is God who made it easier for some and harder for others to be saved.

I appreciate your articulation.

For me it’s simple enough as free will and choice. God purposed choice and even when He chooses servants in scripture, He doesn’t seem to be violating choice.

Even Jonah runs out of fear and loathing for Nineveh. God simply moved Jonah past his fear and pointed out how callous Jonah’s heart was to him.

Jonah cries out from Sheol in the belly of the sea entity that swallowed him, so we also see the “Sign of Jonah” in scripture, through this event.

We can be certain that Jonah set himself up to die, by revealing who he was to the crew he stowed away with, so Jonah had attempted to die, then and there. God didn’t drive Jonah’s will, but clearly purposed him after death.

Jonah wasn’t just upchucked onto the shore, but he was reinvigorated with life.

God works with mankind, despite mankind’s stiffneckedness.

I don’t see predestination that forces will, so much as omniscient’s working with all humanity to bring about His will, as much as mankind will allow.

The flood shows that mankind can go far outside of God’s will.

But, that’s simply my opinion.
 
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