John 11:48 "....shall come the Romans and take away of us, place and nation"

TribulationSigns · Apr 30, 2019

parousia70 said:
I wonder where they get that idea....?
Hebrews 9:8
the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing.

Excuse, justification, pretext, rationalization, the bottom line is it's all just subterfuge. Anything to evade having to accept what is clearly written concerning the positioning of "all" the stones. Handling the word of God deceitfully is changing or corrupting the word by mixing it with humanism or worldly inventions, maybe even the babblings of Josephus, anything in order to make it acceptable to those who will not receive a divine interpretation directly from the Spirit in authority of the Scriptures. For example, stones, not as the world defines them, but as God all through His own word has defined them. 70 A.D. is an excuse not to believe the Spirit, not a fulfillment of the Word. An evil and unfaithful generation seek excuses not to believe all the stones of the Old Testament City and Temple WERE thrown down, that the City and Temple could be rebuilt in the New Testament dispensation. These worldly things like Temples, Cities and Holy rooms were "types" signifying things far more important than stones, lampstands and physical tabernacles. And again, I suggest you check the context of the verse the next time you quote. Observe:

Hebrews 9:8-10

"The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation."

Stone, temples, tabernacles, animal sacrifices, cities, Kingdoms, candlesticks, etc., these were all types, figures, tokens of something far more important than animal blood, a Temple or a King like David. These were all types, a type wherein the Old Testament economy is represented by the Old Testament Holy Temple, and the New by the New Testament Holy Temple. The first had to fall FIRST in order for the second to start building. This is the Spiritual nature of the whole Bible, that unfortunately, many Christians blind themselves to. Christ came as the building Stone for Israel but was rejected and destroyed (John 2:19) by the Jews (stones) where "that" Holy Temple representation was thrown down and not one stone left, and Christ became the foundation stone of the New Testament church, and the New Testament Jews are the stones built upon Him. Part of the mystery is that this was always as intended.

Sorry to disappoint you but the destruction of your precious physical temple in 70AD is hardly qualified on what Hebrews 9:8-10 teaches!

LittleLambofJesus · Apr 30, 2019

TribulationSigns said:
Wow. How little you know about NKJV, a deadly translation which you need to check this out. People who thought NKJV just "modernized" the words of the King James Bible. The fact is the New King James is NOT a King James Bible that they claimed it to be. It has CHANGES (not corrections) thousands of words, ruined valuable verses, and when not agreeing with the KJV, it actually has instead copied the perverted NIV, NASV, or RSV! And this you must know: Those who translated the NKJV did NOT believe God perfectly preserved His words.

Hey, if you like it...
It is always best to check different versions and see if they line up with the Greek [that especially goes for Revelation!].

"ages" is plural in Hebrews 9 , so the KJV should have used "worlds"

By using "world" you are misleading others..........

4930. sunteleia soon-tel'-i-ah from 4931;
entire completion, i.e. consummation (of a dispensation):--end.

165. aion ahee-ohn' from the same as 104;
properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):--age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end). Compare 5550.

Hebrews 9:26 Biblehub

New International Version
Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

New American Standard Bible
Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

King James Bible
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

New Kings James Version
He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For then he ought to have suffered often from the beginning of the world: but now once at the end of ages, he hath appeared for the destruction of sin, by the sacrifice of himself.

Darby Bible Translation
since he had [then] been obliged often to suffer from the foundation of the world. But now once in the consummation of the ages he has been manifested for [the] putting away of sin by his sacrifice.

Young's Literal Translation
since it had behoved him many times to suffer from the foundation of the world, but now once, at the full end of the ages, for putting away of sin through his sacrifice, he hath been manifested;
-------------------------
Greek New Testament - Parallel Greek New Testament by John Hurt

Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus
epei edei auton pollakiV paqein apo katabolhV kosmou nun de apax epi sunteleia twn aiwnwn eiV aqethsin amartiaV dia thV qusiaV autou pefanerwtai
Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus
epei edei auton pollakiV paqein apo katabolhV kosmou nun de apax epi sunteleia twn aiwnwn eiV aqethsin amartiaV dia thV qusiaV autou pefanerwtai
Byzantine Majority
epei edei auton pollakiV paqein apo katabolhV kosmou nun de apax epi sunteleia twn aiwnwn eiV aqethsin amartiaV dia thV qusiaV autou pefanerwtai
Alexandrian
epei edei auton pollakiV paqein apo katabolhV kosmou nuni de apax epi sunteleia twn aiwnwn eiV aqethsin [ths] amartiaV dia thV qusiaV autou pefanerwtai
Hort and Westcott
epei edei auton pollakiV paqein apo katabolhV kosmou nuni de apax epi sunteleia twn aiwnwn eiV aqethsin thV amartiaV dia thV qusiaV autou pefanerwtai

Ronald · Apr 30, 2019

mkgal1 said:
Were the levitical priests still serving in the Temple and falsely representing God even after His resurrection?

I suppose so, and know that you mention it, it was a good reason to destroy the Temple.

mkgal1 said:
Revelation 5:9–10. Humans are rescued from their sin so that they can be “a kingdom and priests serving our God, and they will reign on earth.” That began at Easter and, in the power of the Spirit, has continued ever since.

"Shall" or "will" reign on earth does not mean we are yet. I haven't been doing any reigning lately. But let's look at the context. Notice in verse 4, in John's vision, he wept because there was no one in heaven or on earth that could open the scroll. This is a vision of John's past, prior to Jesus death and resurrection. In verse 5, the angel says no more, the sacrificial Lamb, Jesus appears, worthy to open it. This is post ascension. Then in Revelation 6, He opens the first seal of the scroll. The angel said, "come" as in come and see, I'll show you what this represents in another time. Remember, this is outside our time domain. With each seal, the angel says, come ... to a different time, location, vantage point, etc.
Okay, so when he gets to the 4th seal, the rider on this pale horse's name was Death. I guess you may call him the Grim Reaper, but you must understand that this Angel of Death kills 1/4 of the people on earth with war, famine, pestilence, and wild beasts.
Did that happen? At any time in history, has 1/4 of the population been killed even over a few years? No. This is future. Actually nothing become Rev. 6 has happened other than Jesus opening the Scroll. He opened it then but it is like a written play, orders of things that will take place. They didn't happen yet, just like any prophecy we read about future events.

Ronald · Apr 30, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR
Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66
Stage 4: End of Collaborative Government, Priesthood ; General Flight: November 66 - March 67
Part 6: Vespasian Subdues Northern and Western Palestine: December 66 - December 68
Part 7: Three-way Power Struggle within Jerusalem After Roman Retreat: January 68 - May 70
Part 8: Romans Breach City Walls and Leave Jerusalem Desolate: May 10 - September 10, 70

Thank you for the details, since they weren't important enough to put into the Bible.

LittleLambofJesus said:
Revelation 14:8
And another Messenger, second-one follows saying "She falls, She falls, Babylon the Great,
the out of the wine of the fury of the fornication of her she has given to drink all the nations".
Revelation 18:19
and they cast dust upon their heads, and cried<2896>, lamenting<2799>, weeping and mourning<3996>, saying,
"Woe! woe! the great City! in which are rich all those having ships<4143> in the sea, out of Her preciousness<5094>,
for to one hour was She was desolated<2049>.

The great city? Jerusalem 70AD?
A quote from an article by John Oates:
[Let me give you a sampling of the kinds of numbers you will find for the first century AD, both from ancient sources and from modern estimates.

From the Biblical Archaeology Review: 80,000 “Estimating the Population of Ancient Jerusalem”, Magen Broshi, BAR 4:02, Jun 1978
Roman historian Tacitus estimated the population of Jerusalem at the time of the Jewish wars to be 600,000 .
Jewish historian Josephus, who would know because he had lived there during the 60s AD, estimated the number of Pharisees alone to be 6,000 (Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, 17.42)
Josephus estimated that 1.1 million were killed in the Jewish War, that 115,880 dead were carried out one of the gates during the month of Nisan in AD 70, and that 97,000 were taken as slaves. Josephus (The Wars Of The Jews Book VI Ch 9 Sec 3)
The estimate your professor is relying on is probably that of Hillel Geva who estimated 20,000 in AD 70 Hillel Geva (2013). “Jerusalem’s Population in Antiquity: A Minimalist View”. Tel Aviv 41 (2): 131–160.

We can be confident that Josephus exaggerated. It is likely that Tacitus relied, at least to some extent on Josephus, but surely he knew people who actually had lived in Jerusalem, so he was not relying only on Josephus. In any case, it is very likely that Tacitus’ number is too high as well.

Let me give my unprofessional response to the criticism you found in this book.

20,000 is almost certainly a gross underestimate as it is coming from an archaeologist who has an ax to grind and who is trying to make a name for himself by giving the lowest possible estimate of the population.

The BAR number, 80,000, is also conservative, as it comes from relatively conservative archaeologists. BAR goes out of its way to be careful and tends always to make conservative claims, but at least not from ones who had a professional reason to underestimate. It is likely to be within a factor of two, one way or the other, of correct.]

At any rate, Jerusalem was sometimes referred to as Babylon, but so was Rome. I submit to you that Babylon in Revelation 14 refers to the ENTIRE WORLD SYSTEM. Babylon was an ancient where all the false religions, astrology, mysticism, black magic, etc., all the junk came from and spread throughout the world when God confused their language. It had one language and they became prideful, trying to be like God and building a tower to the heavens. The entire evil world system will be judged and so this is a reference to "her", the harlot, whom the world committed fornication with, or so to speak. > A Future Judgment is coming!

LittleLambofJesus · Apr 30, 2019

mkgal1 said: ↑
Revelation 5:9–10. Humans are rescued from their sin so that they can be “a kingdom and priests serving our God, and they will reign on earth.” That began at Easter and, in the power of the Spirit, has continued ever since.

Ronald said:
"Shall" or "will" reign on earth does not mean we are yet. I haven't been doing any reigning lately.

I was translating the 7 seals and when I was comparing Bible versions and Greek Texts, I saw some saying "a kingdom and priests" and some saying "kings and priest" in Reve 5:10

Best to look at various Bible versions, and commentaries that expound on that more and also the Greek texts. [Same with Revelation 1:6]

The SEVEN SEALS of Revelation study

Revelation 5:
9 and they are singing a new Song saying "Worthy art Thou to be taking the Scroll and to open up the Seals of It,
that Thou wast slaughtered and did purchase/redeem us to the GOD in Thy blood, out of every Tribe and Tongue and People and Nation.
10 and Thou make them to the GOD of us *Kings[a Kingdom] and Priests and they shall be reigning upon the land."
===================
Revelation 5:10 BIBLEHUB

New American Standard Bible
"You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."

King James Bible
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
================================
Greek New Testament - Parallel Greek New Testament by John Hurt

Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus
kai epoihsaV hmas tw qew hmwn basileis kai iereiV kai basileusomen epi thV ghV

Alexandrian
kai epoihsaV autous tw qew hmwn basileian kai iereiV kai basileusousin epi thV ghV

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
10. unto our God kings and priests] See on the last verse for the true reading: on Revelation 1:6 for the origin of the phrase.

we shall reign] Authorities are nearly evenly divided between the readings “they reign” and “they shall reign.” Perhaps the present is to be preferred, as the more difficult in sense; the future could be easily understood of the millennial reign (Revelation 20:4), whatever that means. If we accept the present, it can hardly be used for a future, every one must feel that Revelation 2:22, &c. are not really parallel: rather, we may say that the faithful on earth are, even in their exile, kings de jure, as David was “when he was in the wilderness of Judah” (Psalms 63 ult. cf. title).
===========================
Bengel's Gnomen
Revelation 5:10. Αὐτοὺς—καὶ βασιλεύσουσιν) See App. Crit., Ed. ii., on this passage. Comp. Matthew 23:37, and Judges 1:24. So also ἐν αὐτῇ, for ἐν σοὶ, ch. Revelation 18:24; ἡ λέγουσα ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτῆς, for σοῦ, Isaiah 47:8; Isaiah 47:10.
In this passage the Hebrew construction of the third person for the first has a graphic relation to the redeemed, and at the same time has a more modest sound, than us, priests,[67] etc.—βασιλείαν) Thus the Alex. Lat. Cypria[68] read, as ch. Revelation 1:6. The more recent copies here also have βασιλεῖς.[69] But they who cast their crowns before the throne do not call themselves kings, in the sight of the great King, although their priestly access has such dignity, that the power of reigning on earth cannot certainly exceed it.
In like manner, in ch. Revelation 20:6, they who have part in the first resurrection are called priests, and are said to be about to reign; and yet the name of kings is not given to them.—ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, upon the earth) Ἐπὶ here denotes locality, as ch.
Pulpit Commentary
Verse 10. - And hast made us unto our God kings and priests; and didst make them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests. Of those whom thou didst redeem from every nation, thou didst make a kingdom and priests. Wordsworth remarks that these honours conferred upon the redeemed imply duties as well as privileges.
They receive the princely honours conferred upon them only on condition that they also become priests, presenting themselves, their souls and bodies, a living sacrifice to God (Romans 12:1, 2), and, being a holy priesthood, offering up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Jesus Christ (1 Peter 2:5). (On the person of "us," see on previous verse.)

And we shall reign on the earth; or, and they reign on the earth (see on ver. 9). The interpretation of this passage will necessarily be influenced to some extent by the view adopted of the millennium (see on Revelation 20.),
------------------------------------
Revelation 1:6
Kingdom, Priests or Kings and Priests?

New American Standard Bible
and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father-- to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

King James Bible
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus
kai epoihsen hmaV basileis kai iereiV tw qew kai patri autou autw h doxa kai to kratoV eiV touV aiwnaV twn aiwnwn amhn

Byzantine Majority
kai epoihsen hmaV basileian iereiV tw qew kai patri autou autw h doxa kai to kratoV eiV touV aiwnaV twn aiwnwn amhn

Ronald · Apr 30, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
I was translating the 7 seals and when I was comparing Bible versions and Greek Texts, I saw some saying "a kingdom and priests" and some saying "kings and priest" in Reve 5:10

Best to look at various Bible versions, and commentaries that expound on that more and also the Greek texts. [Same with Revelation 1:6]

The SEVEN SEALS of Revelation study

Revelation 5:
9 and they are singing a new Song saying "Worthy art Thou to be taking the Scroll and to open up the Seals of It,
that Thou wast slaughtered and did purchase/redeem us to the GOD in Thy blood, out of every Tribe and Tongue and People and Nation.
10 and Thou make them to the GOD of us *Kings[a Kingdom] and Priests and they shall be reigning upon the land."
===================
Revelation 5:10 BIBLEHUB

New American Standard Bible
"You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."

King James Bible
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
================================
Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus
kai epoihsaV hmas tw qew hmwn basileis kai iereiV kai basileusomen epi thV ghV

Byzantine Majority
kai epoihsaV autous tw qew hmwn basileis kai iereiV kai basileusousin epi thV ghV

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
10. unto our God kings and priests] See on the last verse for the true reading: on Revelation 1:6 for the origin of the phrase.

we shall reign] Authorities are nearly evenly divided between the readings “they reign” and “they shall reign.” Perhaps the present is to be preferred, as the more difficult in sense; the future could be easily understood of the millennial reign (Revelation 20:4), whatever that means. If we accept the present, it can hardly be used for a future, every one must feel that Revelation 2:22, &c. are not really parallel: rather, we may say that the faithful on earth are, even in their exile, kings de jure, as David was “when he was in the wilderness of Judah” (Psalms 63 ult. cf. title).
===========================
Bengel's Gnomen
Revelation 5:10. Αὐτοὺς—καὶ βασιλεύσουσιν) See App. Crit., Ed. ii., on this passage. Comp. Matthew 23:37, and Judges 1:24. So also ἐν αὐτῇ, for ἐν σοὶ, ch. Revelation 18:24; ἡ λέγουσα ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτῆς, for σοῦ, Isaiah 47:8; Isaiah 47:10.
In this passage the Hebrew construction of the third person for the first has a graphic relation to the redeemed, and at the same time has a more modest sound, than us, priests,[67] etc.—βασιλείαν) Thus the Alex. Lat. Cypria[68] read, as ch. Revelation 1:6. The more recent copies here also have βασιλεῖς.[69] But they who cast their crowns before the throne do not call themselves kings, in the sight of the great King, although their priestly access has such dignity, that the power of reigning on earth cannot certainly exceed it.
In like manner, in ch. Revelation 20:6, they who have part in the first resurrection are called priests, and are said to be about to reign; and yet the name of kings is not given to them.—ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, upon the earth) Ἐπὶ here denotes locality, as ch.
Pulpit Commentary
Verse 10. - And hast made us unto our God kings and priests; and didst make them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests. Of those whom thou didst redeem from every nation, thou didst make a kingdom and priests. Wordsworth remarks that these honours conferred upon the redeemed imply duties as well as privileges.
They receive the princely honours conferred upon them only on condition that they also become priests, presenting themselves, their souls and bodies, a living sacrifice to God (Romans 12:1, 2), and, being a holy priesthood, offering up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Jesus Christ (1 Peter 2:5). (On the person of "us," see on previous verse.)

And we shall reign on the earth; or, and they reign on the earth (see on ver. 9). The interpretation of this passage will necessarily be influenced to some extent by the view adopted of the millennium (see on Revelation 20.),
------------------------------------
Revelation 1:6
Kingdom of Priests or Kings and Priests?

New American Standard Bible
and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father-- to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

King James Bible
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus
kai epoihsen hmaV basileis kai iereiV tw qew kai patri autou autw h doxa kai to kratoV eiV touV aiwnaV twn aiwnwn amhn

Byzantine Majority
kai epoihsen hmaV basileian iereiV tw qew kai patri autou autw h doxa kai to kratoV eiV touV aiwnaV twn aiwnwn amhn

You are right, I remember that as well. I usually check several versions and then go to YLT. NASB AND NKJ are versions I use most but there you have it, "kings". I'm not one yet, nor do I consider myself a priest ... some have said I am a saint, but only in a spiritual sense, my flesh is weak.
No queens though huh?
Hey, I'm in Temple, Texas - neighbor

LittleLambofJesus · Apr 30, 2019

Ronald said:
You are right, I remember that as well. I usually check several versions and then go to YLT. NASB AND NKJ are versions I use most but there you have it, "kings". I'm not one yet, nor do I consider myself a priest ... some have said I am a saint, but only in a spiritual sense, my flesh is weak. No queens though huh?
Hey, I'm in Temple, Texas - neighbor

There are 2 Queens mentioned in Revelation.....Jezebel and 1st century Jerusalem.......IMHO....

Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series
JEZEBEL

Revelation 2:20
“But I am having much<4183> against thee, that thou suffer Jezebel. the woman/wife of thee, the one saying Herself to be a prophetess and she is teaching and deceiving<4105> My bondslaves to prostitute and to be eating idol sacrifices<1494>

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

Revelation 18:7
‘As much as She glorifies Herself and indulges so much, be giving to Her torment<929> and sorrow<3997>. That in Her heart She is saying: 'I am sitting a Queen, and a Widow not I am, and sorrow not no I shall be seeing.'

The 2nd Lament for Jerusalem: 70 AD:

Lam 1:1
How deserted lies the City, once so full of people! How like a widow is she, who once was great among the nations!
She who was queen among the provinces has now become a slave.

https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

In executing the command of Titus, relative to the demolition of Jerusalem, the Roman soldiers not only threw down the buildings, but even dug up their foundations, and so completely levelled the whole circuit of the city, that a stranger would scarcely have known that it had ever been inhabited by human beings. Thus was this great City, which only five months before, had been crowded with nearly two millions of people, who gloried in its impregnable strength, entirely depopulated, and levelled with the ground. And thus, also was our LORD'S prediction, that her enemies should "lay her even with the ground," and "should not leave in her one stone upon another, " (Luke xix. 44.)
=========================================

Ronald said:
I'm not one yet, nor do I consider myself a priest ... some have said I am a saint, but only in a spiritual sense, my flesh is weak. No queens though huh? Hey, I'm in Temple, Texas - neighbor

Hey neighbor....I am in central Texas.....
REMEMBER THE ALAMO!!!!

TribulationSigns · Apr 30, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
New International Version
Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

New American Standard Bible
Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

King James Bible
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

New Kings James Version
He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For then he ought to have suffered often from the beginning of the world: but now once at the end of ages, he hath appeared for the destruction of sin, by the sacrifice of himself.

Darby Bible Translation
since he had [then] been obliged often to suffer from the foundation of the world. But now once in the consummation of the ages he has been manifested for [the] putting away of sin by his sacrifice.

Young's Literal Translation
since it had behoved him many times to suffer from the foundation of the world, but now once, at the full end of the ages, for putting away of sin through his sacrifice, he hath been manifested;

The consummation of the ages and the end of the world are speaking about the same thing, really. According to CONTEXT, It speaks of the consummation and the Second Coming. That does not point to 70AD. It is your Eschatology interpretation that you like to place it at 70AD to fit your preterism which I do not see it as valid biblical proof. Guaranteed.

TribulationSigns · Apr 30, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
There are 2 Queens mentioned in Revelation.....Jezebel and 1st century Jerusalem.......IMHO....

Already debated this before.

"IMHO" is just another word for speculations. An assumption. A private interpretation. Not a Biblical fact. You are forcing God's Word to say it is about a physical city to fit your doctrine based on how you misapplied verses from all over Scripture. Are you sure you are not a full Preterist?

LittleLambofJesus · Apr 30, 2019

mkgal1 said:
If the Son of Man hasn't fulfilled the "coming in His kingdom in glory and salvation" then
we are still waiting for salvation. These passages were written AFTER His death and resurrection - but prior to the destruction of the Temple.

Hebrews 9:27-28 “Just as man is destined to die once, and after that face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away sins of many people and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.”

Galatians 5:5 “But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope.”

Romans 13:11-12 “And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from you slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we fist believed. The night is nearly over; the day is almost here.

TribulationSigns said:
Not only how convenient to take things out of context but the bible you used is badly translated. Please read again with KJV:

Hebrews 9:26-28

"For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

The fact is, we are living in the last days now, the end of the world, the New Covenant dispensation. It has nothing whatsoever to do with 70AD. It was not the harvest, it was not Christ's second advent, it was not when Christ appeared the second time without sin unto salvation.

..he who hath an ear, let him hear.

LittleLambofJesus said:
You need to chunk the KJperVersion and let beginners read it........
Even the NKJV fixed a plethora of errors in it. No wonder you [and zionists fururists] hold the views you do.......

Hebrews 9 YLT
YLT)
Hebrews 9:
26since it had behooved him many times to suffer from the foundation of the world, but now once, at the full end of the ages, for putting away of sin through his sacrifice, he hath been manifested;
27 and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this — judgment,
28 so also the Christ, once having been offered to bear the sins of many, a second time, apart from a sin-offering, shall appear, to those waiting for him — to salvation! [Romans 13:11]
==============================================
Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling to us! when shall these be being?
and what the sign of Thy parousia<3952> and full-end<4931-5055> of the Age?

Mark 13:4
Tell us! when? shall these be and what? the sign whenever may be being about<3195> these.

Luke 21
7 Yet they inquire<1905> of Him, saying, “Teacher!
when? then shall these be And what? the sign whenever may be being about<3195> these to becoming<1096>?
======================================
"THE TIME IS NIGH AT HAND" AND "COMING IN SWIFTNESS" REVELATION PROPHECY

Romans 13:
11 And this knowing the time, that hour it-is already out of sleep to be roused,
for now nearer<1452> of us the Salvation than when we believed.
12 The Night progresses, the yet Day is nigh<1448>. We should be putting off then the works of the Darkness, we should be putting on the implements of the Light.

Hebrews 8:13
in the to be saying `New', He hath made old the former.
The yet being aged and being obsolete nigh<1451> of disappearance<854>

1 Peter 4:7
Of all-things yet the End<5056> is nigh<1448>
be sane then, and be sober into the prayers,

James 5:8
be patient! and stand-fast! the hearts of ye,
that the Parousia <3952> of the Lord is nigh<1448>

TribulationSigns said: ↑
Wow. How little you know about NKJV, a deadly translation which you need to check this out. People who thought NKJV just "modernized" the words of the King James Bible. The fact is the New King James is NOT a King James Bible that they claimed it to be. It has CHANGES (not corrections) thousands of words, ruined valuable verses, and when not agreeing with the KJV, it actually has instead copied the perverted NIV, NASV, or RSV! And this you must know: Those who translated the NKJV did NOT believe God perfectly preserved His words.

"DEADLY TRANSLATION"? A children's Bible is probably more accurate than the KJV.....pretty to read tho............

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
New International Version
Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

New American Standard Bible
Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

King James Bible
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

New Kings James Version
He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For then he ought to have suffered often from the beginning of the world: but now once at the end of ages, he hath appeared for the destruction of sin, by the sacrifice of himself.

Darby Bible Translation
since he had [then] been obliged often to suffer from the foundation of the world. But now once in the consummation of the ages he has been manifested for [the] putting away of sin by his sacrifice.

Young's Literal Translation
since it had behoved him many times to suffer from the foundation of the world, but now once, at the full end of the ages, for putting away of sin through his sacrifice, he hath been manifested;

TribulationSigns said:
The consummation of the ages and the end of the world are speaking about the same thing, really. According to CONTEXT, It speaks of the consummation and the Second Coming. That does not point to 70AD. It is your Eschatology interpretation that you like to place it at 70AD to fit your preterism which I do not see it as valid biblical proof. Guaranteed.

No it is not.

These verses don't say "into the worlds of the worlds".

Reve 1:18 and the living One! And I became dead and behold! I am living into the Ages of the Ages. And I am having the Keys of the Hades and of the Death

touV aiwnaV <165> twn <3588> aiwnwn <165>

This verse leaves out the article "the"

Reve 14:11
And the Smoke of the tormenting of them into Ages of Ages is ascending.
And not they are having rest of day and of night, the ones worshiping the Beast

eiV <1519> aiwnaV <165> aiwnwn <165>

Is the GREAT CITY in Revelation symbolizing the LAKE OF FIRE?

Reve 19:3 and a second time They have declared "Hallelujah and the Smoke of Her is ascending into the Ages of the Ages"

eiV touV aiwnaV twn <3588> aiwnwn <165>

Reve 20:10 And the Devil, the one deceiving them, was cast into the Lake of the fire and of sulfur, the where also the Beast and the False-prophet. And they shall be being tormented day and night into the Ages of the Ages.

eiV <1519> touV <3588> aiwnaV <165> twn <3588> aiwnwn <165>

Reve 22:5 And night not is being there and need not they are having of a lamp and light of sun.
That Lord the God shall be lighting them, and they shall be reigning into the Ages of the Ages.

eiV <1519> touV <3588> aiwnaV <165> twn <3588> aiwnwn <165>

LittleLambofJesus · Apr 30, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
There are 2 Queens mentioned in Revelation.....Jezebel and 1st century Jerusalem.......IMHO....

TribulationSigns said:
Already debated this before.

Ok.......

mkgal1 · May 1, 2019

Tribulation Signs said:
I think the problem with some Preterists is that they believe that a physical temple must be destroyed in order a spiritual temple could be built. That was not what Jesus had in mind.

parousia70 said:
I wonder where they get that idea....?
Hebrews 9:8
the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing.

TribulationSigns said:
Stone, temples, tabernacles, animal sacrifices, cities, Kingdoms, candlesticks, etc., these were all types, figures, tokens of something far more important than animal blood, a Temple or a King like David. These were all types, a type wherein the Old Testament economy is represented by the Old Testament Holy Temple, and the New by the New Testament Holy Temple. The first had to fall FIRST in order for the second to start building. This is the Spiritual nature of the whole Bible, mkthat unfortunately, many Christians blind themselves to.

You seem to be arguing with yourself, TS. :scratch:

parousia70 · May 1, 2019

mkgal1 said:
You seem to be arguing with yourself, TS.

I submit this Blue Sky as Exhibit "A"

Look very closely at this Blue Sky.

Even though you say the Blue Sky is actually Blue, I'm here to tell you the Blue Sky I have submitted as Exhibit "A" is actually Yellow, in spite of its inherent blueness that you can and do observe.

You should know this but because you don't, it's clear you don't understand the facts and have not been blessed with the correct understanding that I have.

TribulationSigns · May 1, 2019

mkgal1 said:
You seem to be arguing with yourself, TS.

Yes, keep

your head because you misrepresented what I said by cutting off the rest of my post you quoted as stated in blue:

"Hebrews 9:8-10

"The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation."

Stone, temples, tabernacles, animal sacrifices, cities, Kingdoms, candlesticks, etc., these were all types, figures, tokens of something far more important than animal blood, a Temple or a King like David. These were all types, a type wherein the Old Testament economy is represented by the Old Testament Holy Temple, and the New by the New Testament Holy Temple. The first had to fall FIRST in order for the second to start building. This is the Spiritual nature of the whole Bible, that unfortunately, many Christians blind themselves to. Christ came as the building Stone for Israel but was rejected and destroyed (John 2:19) by the Jews (stones) where "that" Holy Temple representation was thrown down and not one stone left, and Christ became the foundation stone of the New Testament church, and the New Testament Jews are the stones built upon Him. Part of the mystery is that this was always as intended.

Sorry to disappoint you but the destruction of your precious physical temple in 70AD is hardly qualified on what Hebrews 9:8-10 teaches!"

Jesus Christ has defined the stones as people. It is the people of His Old Testament Congregation which ALREADY fell into desolate when He was cut off. They already lost their kingdom representative.

Daniel 9:26 KJV
[26] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

This fulfilled what Christ gave the Jews a SIGN in John 2:19 that THEY (the Jews) will come and destroy this temple and in three days He will raise it up. See, this has nothing to do with 70AD physical temple. And the prince in context is still Messiah the Prince! Not some evil prince you can think of! The people of this prince is the Jews which is Christ's people of the congregation which is what "his body of the temple" represents! Selah! The desolate already determined upon THIS people (Jews as the builders) when he was cut off. Now notice that the prince also confirmed a new covenant the very next verse? Confirmed a covenant with who? The one that Christ came and rebuilt the temple? Whose temple is this? Humm? And in three days, he resurrected, didn't he? Who were His people after three days? Was it not the New Testament Congregation which begun her commission at Pentecost? Therefore, there is NO reason to wait for the physical destruction of the Jewish temple or even "second coming" in 70AD!

Go ahead and mock at me when you fail to understand when I wrote: "Stone, temples, tabernacles, animal sacrifices, cities, Kingdoms, candlesticks, etc., these were all types, figures, tokens of something far more important than animal blood, a Temple or a King like David. These were all types, a type wherein the Old Testament economy is represented by the Old Testament Holy Temple."

The Jews, as the people of the congregation, fell or in desoalte when their kingdom representative was taken from them... the moment they cut off the Messsiah the Prince! Notice that at the time of Christ's death, the physical Jewish temple was no longer holy in God's eyes the moment the veil was torn in half. That means the physical temple was not even holy when Titus sacked the city.

Matthew 24:15 KJV
[15] When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

The New Testament congregation, the church, already hold the title since the Resurrection of Christ adn Pentecost! Like I said, you got wrong temple and Jersualem.

So yeah, keep :scratch:

on your head because Jesus said only those whoso readeth, let him understand! It's not a physical holy place in 70AD you thought it was! It is spiritual discerned.

TribulationSigns · May 1, 2019

parousia70 said:
You should know this but because you don't, it's clear you don't understand the facts and have not been blessed with the correct understanding that I have.

As I said, The Lord Judges and I am comfortable with that. All I can say is that you will be in for a big disappointment when the last trump sounds.

mkgal1 · May 1, 2019

TribulationSigns said:
you misrepresented what I said by cutting off the rest of my post you quoted as stated in blue:

Those were your own words. I was attempting to cut through all the pages and pages of words posted by you in order to get to the crux of the argument. That's what it seemed to be summed up as. It's not my fault that you seem to be struggling to make your argument in a clear and succinct (and consistent) manner.

TribulationSigns · May 1, 2019

mkgal1 said:
Those were your own words. I was attempting to cut through all the pages and pages of words posted by you in order to get to the crux of the argument. That's what it seemed to be summed up as. It's not my fault that you seem to be struggling to make your argument in a clear and succinct (and consistent) manner.

I am not struggling at all. I said exactly what I mean based on Scripture. You just don't understand what "a type wherein the Old Testament economy is represented by the Old Testament Holy Temple" means. As God is my witnesses, the Lord Judges and I am comfortable with it!

mkgal1 · May 1, 2019

Okay.....let's discuss this (because, TS, you seem to be saying this is the critical part of your argument that I neglected to include):

TribulationSigns said:
Christ came as the building Stone for Israel but was rejected and destroyed (John 2:19) by the Jews (stones) where "that" Holy Temple representation was thrown down and not one stone left, and Christ became the foundation stone of the New Testament church, and the New Testament Jews are the stones built upon Him. Part of the mystery is that this was always as intended.

Sorry to disappoint you but the destruction of your precious physical temple in 70AD is hardly qualified on what Hebrews 9:8-10 teaches!"

I don't disagree that Jesus came as the cornerstone of His new Temple. What I DO take issue with is your negligence in recognizing the physical temple that was standing (and the one before it - Solomon's temple - and that whole associated system) - and some of the meaning behind it. You seem to want to push it all aside and ignore it.

Let's begin with the PHYSICAL temple and the system associated (the shadows) - then we'll get to the PEOPLE.....agreed?

mkgal1 · May 1, 2019

TribulationSigns said:
I am not struggling at all. I said exactly what I mean based on Scripture. You just don't understand what "a type wherein the Old Testament economy is represented by the Old Testament Holy Temple" means. As God is my witnesses, the Lord Judges and I am comfortable with it!

Basic communication - of course YOU understand what YOU are trying to express.....but those of us that aren't you are dependent upon the way you express yourself in order to grasp what your point is. As far as I can tell, all of us that aren't YOU are not understanding what point you're even trying to make. So....yes....that means you are, indeed, struggling (you're just not accepting that as fact). That's typically called "denial".

Others disagreeing with YOUR interpretation (or not even understanding WHAT your interpretation is) isn't a lack of understanding Scripture - it's a lack of understanding YOUR interpretation of Scripture.

mkgal1 · May 1, 2019

TribulationSigns said:
As I said, The Lord Judges and I am comfortable with that. All I can say is that you will be in for a big disappointment when the last trump sounds.

Why do you have such a double standard for quoting? This misrepresents what Parousia70 posted by cutting off the first part of that post (and that wasn't even a lengthy post). Methinks there're games being played here.

John 11:48 "....shall come the Romans and take away of us, place and nation"

Well-Known Member

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Exhortations

Exhortations

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Exhortations

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Well-Known Member

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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