Female student files civil rights complaint over boy in girls’ locker room

Jon Osterman

Well-Known Member
Jan 23, 2018
716
473
Glasgow
✟59,048.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
If post-op transexuals look like men in drag then they have been seriously cheated by their medical practitioners.

Again, there are exceptions, but yeah, many of them pretty much look like a man in drag no matter how long they have been taking the hormones. There is not much you can do if they were a 6 foot 4, 220lbs rugby player.
 
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
39,254
20,261
US
✟1,450,928.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Again, there are exceptions, but yeah, many of them pretty much look like a man in drag no matter how long they have been taking the hormones. There is not much you can do if they were a 6 foot 4, 220lbs rugby player.

Most people on earth are not 6 foot 4, 220lbs.

The number of 6 foot 4, 220lbs people who are men is a smaller proportion.

The number of male 6 foot 4, 220lbs who are transsexuals is even smaller.

The number of post-op male 6 foot 4, 220lbs. transsexuals is vanishingly smaller than that.

Those are the exceptions. The great majority of post-op transsexuals are not distinctive--not even undressed.
 
Upvote 0

Aldebaran

NCC-1701-A
Christian Forums Staff
Purple Team - Moderator
Site Supporter
Oct 17, 2009
38,729
12,120
Wisconsin, United States of America
✟650,577.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
I'm not sure what you mean by that. Changing rooms are usually gendered spaces exactly because women feel threatened by men. It is a completely natural fear.

At least in vulnerable situations where they may be alone with them and naked.
 
Upvote 0

Jon Osterman

Well-Known Member
Jan 23, 2018
716
473
Glasgow
✟59,048.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Most people on earth are not 6 foot 4, 220lbs.

It doesn't matter how many there are. If you make a rule, it has to apply to all, so you are allowing people into the changing rooms who stop women feeling safe.

Those are the exceptions. The great majority of post-op transsexuals are not distinctive--not even undressed.

You have obviously not met many transgender people. Or maybe you are just really imperceptive. I know 4 transgendered women at the moment (though admittedly only three of them are post-op) and of them, I would say only one of them was not obviously born male. Even the one, you can tell after talking to for a few minutes.

(It is possible I casually know more and just no-one has told me they are transgendered though, I suppose, but they would have to be a very casual acquaintance.)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
39,254
20,261
US
✟1,450,928.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You have obviously not met many trangendered people. Or maybe you are just really imperceptive. I know 4 transgendered women at the moment (though admitedly only three of them are post-op) and of them I would say only one of them was not obviously born male. Even the one, you can tell after talking to for a few minutes.

If you've only met four, then I've met more than you. I've met a lot as a photographer.

No man has has his penis removed just to look at girls.
 
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,625
81
St Charles, IL
✟347,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
If you've only met four, then I've met more than you. I've met a lot as a photographer.

No man has has his penis removed just to look at girls.
I think that part of the problem is that some people don't really believe in transgender, but that it's a whim, a "lifestyle choice."
 
Upvote 0

Jon Osterman

Well-Known Member
Jan 23, 2018
716
473
Glasgow
✟59,048.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I think that part of the problem is that some people don't really believe in transgender, but that it's a whim, a "lifestyle choice."

Of course it is a lifestyle choice. No-one forces them to act like a woman - they have to choose to do it.

The same is true with being gay. Same-sex attraction may be unavoidable, but acting on it is a choice.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Darkhorse
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,625
81
St Charles, IL
✟347,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Of course it is a lifestyle choice. No-one forces them to act like a woman - they have to choose to do it.

The same is true with being gay. Same-sex attraction may be unavoidable, but acting on it is a choice.
And who are you to make that choice for anyone else but yourself?
 
  • Optimistic
Reactions: Pommer
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Jon Osterman

Well-Known Member
Jan 23, 2018
716
473
Glasgow
✟59,048.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
And who are you to make that choice for anyone else but yourself?

In what sense am I making a choice for them? They are free to do as they wish (as long as they don't infringe on the security or wellbeing of others). They shouldn't expect my approval, but presumably, they don't care about my approval.
 
Upvote 0

Ana the Ist

Aggressively serene!
Feb 21, 2012
37,544
11,387
✟436,574.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
I think that part of the problem is that some people don't really believe in transgender, but that it's a whim, a "lifestyle choice."

I believe that, for example, there are men who believe they feel like a woman.

As far as the subject goes...that's about all I can say for certain.
 
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,625
81
St Charles, IL
✟347,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
In what sense am I making a choice for them? They are free to do as they wish (as long as they don't infringe on the security or wellbeing of others). They shouldn't expect my approval, but presumably, they don't care about my approval.
Good. But don't expect any government money to help you act out that disapproval.
 
Upvote 0

SimplyMe

Senior Veteran
Jul 19, 2003
9,706
9,430
the Great Basin
✟329,220.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
While I am happy to admit that there are some transgender women who look very much like they were born women, the vast majority look like men in drag.

I'd love to see a citation for that claim. From what I've seen (both in papers and personally) most current transsexuals look very much like women. The issue is, they pass through their lives and no one questions them -- and they definitely don't want to "out" themselves as transsexuals -- so the ones that people think of as "transsexuals" is your stereotype.

If a 6 feet 4 "woman" with a square jaw and stubble walks into the changing room, it is quite reasonable that some women would be intimidated, irrespective of their genitalia (which they are presumably not exhibiting anyway the moment they walk in).

I disagree -- from what I know it should be extremely rare for a post-op woman to have "stubble." I'm guessing more genetic females have facial hair and "stubble" than transsexuals -- I'm sure you've known older women who have gravely voices and "stubble."

As for 6'4", I'm guessing many woman would be "intimidated," and may even make false assumptions, regardless of the genitals of that 6'4 woman at birth.

Beyond that, at least from what I know of the topic, transsexual females that don't "pass" well (look like men in drag) avoid dressing rooms like the plague. They know they don't pass well and don't want to call attention to themselves.

I am also happy to concede that the threat felt may be (and probably is) entirely imaginary. But that doesn't matter. If I went into a woman's changing room, any threat I posed would also be imaginary, but I think it would be entirely reasonable for the women to object.

But beyond that, your entire "straw man" here is pointless. The topic of this thread has nothing to do with "men." These transsexuals who are high school age should be able to pass very well -- if not it is because they haven't received the treatment they should have.

Having said that, I do think some of the transsexuals want to push this too far. I do think, for the school to recognize a student as transsexual, that the student/parents should be required to provide medical certification that they are undergoing treatment. Additionally, I think transsexuals should be excused from any activity, such as gym, that would require them to use changing rooms -- they can tell other students they have a medical condition that prevents them from taking gym class.

I do think, as a general rule, they should be allowed to use the bathroom of the gender they are presenting as. I realize that in cases, such as a school where doors have been removed from bathroom stalls, that there may be some type of accommodation made. Those accommodations; however, need to keep the student from being "outed."
 
  • Like
Reactions: comana
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

SimplyMe

Senior Veteran
Jul 19, 2003
9,706
9,430
the Great Basin
✟329,220.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Of course it is a lifestyle choice. No-one forces them to act like a woman - they have to choose to do it.

The same is true with being gay. Same-sex attraction may be unavoidable, but acting on it is a choice.

I'm sorry, this just isn't correct. It is about like those who talk about people "choosing" to be depressed -- despite the fact that person has a chemical imbalance in their brain which is causing them to feel depressed.

Yes, maybe they do have a "choice" -- but the choice is not what you think it is. Instead, the choice seems to be "act like a woman," as you put it (though also pointing out there are transsexual men), develop some type of mental illness (such as depression), become a drug abuser, or even commit suicide.

I'll admit that more research needs to be done into gender issues like transsexualism but, it is clear, it is not a choice. More interestingly, there are a few post-mortem studies done on the brains of transsexuals, that show their brains are "wired" similar to the gender they claim to be -- not the one they were "born as."
 
  • Informative
Reactions: DaisyDay
Upvote 0

Jon Osterman

Well-Known Member
Jan 23, 2018
716
473
Glasgow
✟59,048.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I'd love to see a citation for that claim.

I did admit in my post that it is possible that there are others I don't know about. But unless I am living in a secret transgendered bubble, I think that is unlikely. As I said, I know a few transgendered women personally, and I am pretty sure they are the only people I know well who are transgendered.

But as I said, saying they "pass" as female is a straw man. It doesn't matter if they "pass" or not - what matters is the person in the event we are discussing didn't "pass", otherwise there would have been no issue.

Beyond that, at least from what I know of the topic, transsexual females that don't "pass" well (look like men in drag) avoid dressing rooms like the plague. They know they don't pass well and don't want to call attention to themselves.

Clearly not in this instance.

Yes, maybe they do have a "choice" -- but the choice is not what you think it is. Instead, the choice seems to be "act like a woman," as you put it (though also pointing out there are transsexual men), develop some type of mental illness (such as depression), become a drug abuser, or even commit suicide.

Or maybe they could try prayer.
 
Upvote 0

Jon Osterman

Well-Known Member
Jan 23, 2018
716
473
Glasgow
✟59,048.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Good. But don't expect any government money to help you act out that disapproval.

I am curious as to how you think I could be given money to "act out that disapproval". Maybe just take a minute to reflect on how stupid a statement that is...
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Darkhorse
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,625
81
St Charles, IL
✟347,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
I am curious as to how you think I could be given money to "act out that disapproval". Maybe just take a minute to reflect on how stupid a statement that is...
That was my mistake--I was on the wrong screen and meant to be responding to a thread discussing the withholding of federal funds from religious adopting agencies which refused to place children in LGBT households.
 
  • Useful
Reactions: Darkhorse
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,625
81
St Charles, IL
✟347,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
But as I said, saying they "pass" as female is a straw man. It doesn't matter if they "pass" or not - what matters is the person in the event we are discussing didn't "pass", otherwise there would have been no issue.
And the issue in that case is not whether transsexuality is "real." The issue was that it came a surprise to the girl and no doubt was a crushing embarrassment to the trans kid as well. You can't become "trans" without serious counselling involving parents and medical practitioners. In a school setting it should also require some general education for the student body about just what trans is and what they should expect. (That's one of the things comprehensive sex ed is for, BTW). Just dumping a non-surgical trans kid into the girls locker room without notice is unadulterated cruelty. I suspect some "acting out of disapproval" on the part of school officials in this case as well.
 
Upvote 0