The Prophetic Word

6:1-2 The Vision of the Seven Seals

The seven seals repeat the same history as the seven churches, but with a different emphasis. In chapters 8-11 we will see how the seven trumpets cover the same basic timeline but with its own distinctive focus.

The first four seals are widely known as the “Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.” In Revelation the horse is an animal associated with war. See Revelation 19:11, 19. The four horsemen represent the churches as they go forth to battle their enemies. The colors of the horses (white, red, black, and pale) indicate a change from purity to apostasy.
The 1st Seal: A White horse: The Pure Church
The 2nd Seal: A Red Horse: The Persecuting Church.
The 3rd Seal: A Black Horse: The Corrupt Church.
The 4th Seal: A Pale Horse: The Dead Church.

6:9-11 The 5th Seal: The Martyred Church. “Under the altar the souls…slain for the word of God.” Apocalyptic language teaches lessons and truths in pictures or symbols. God does not keep literal souls under a literal alter in heaven. During the middle ages, the Papal system had millions of people put to death because they would not renounce Bible truth. Here is pictured, in symbolic language, the many martyrs of all ages whose blood, like the blood of Abel (Genesis 4:8-10), cries out to God for justice and a vindication of the truths for which they died. The Bible teaches that the dead in Christ rise and put on immortality when He returns. 1 Corinthians 15:51-53.

Revelation 6 Commentary

keras said:

No attempt to post your view of the reality?
I expect that is because it would be too much bother for you.

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You would argue against it anyway! You believe you have the truth. You really do think you know Revelation. You are right. I cant be bothered to go into detail as it would be futile.

As a partial preterist i see Revelation completely differently.

keras said:

Of course I would and I would show scriptures that prove you wrong.

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But, you can show me scripture that you think shows that you are correct but i say its how you interpret said scripture. You try to tie it all together but to me it is the opposite.

Revelation is very much misinterpreted by many end times 'experts'.

keras said:

Of course I would and I would show scriptures that prove you wrong.

The 7 Churchs, the 7 Seals and the 7 Trumpets are all different peoples and events, all occurring at different times.
Saying they have each a distinctive focus, is the same as saying they cannot be conflated.
Proper understanding can never be achieved the way you believe.

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Not trying to derail this thread but I have to respond to your last sentence above which is a cheap shot or a holier than thou statement

One of these days we will see who has the correct understanding of scripture.

Lets start with these

Jesus said
John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Deuteronomy 7:9
Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

Deuteronomy 8:3
And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord doth man live.

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Original Happy Camper said:

6:1-2 The Vision of the Seven Seals

The seven seals repeat the same history as the seven churches, but with a different emphasis. In chapters 8-11 we will see how the seven trumpets cover the same basic timeline but with its own distinctive focus.

The first four seals are widely known as the “Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.” In Revelation the horse is an animal associated with war. See Revelation 19:11, 19. The four horsemen represent the churches as they go forth to battle their enemies. The colors of the horses (white, red, black, and pale) indicate a change from purity to apostasy.
The 1st Seal: A White horse: The Pure Church
The 2nd Seal: A Red Horse: The Persecuting Church.
The 3rd Seal: A Black Horse: The Corrupt Church.
The 4th Seal: A Pale Horse: The Dead Church.

6:9-11 The 5th Seal: The Martyred Church. “Under the altar the souls…slain for the word of God.” Apocalyptic language teaches lessons and truths in pictures or symbols. God does not keep literal souls under a literal alter in heaven. During the middle ages, the Papal system had millions of people put to death because they would not renounce Bible truth. Here is pictured, in symbolic language, the many martyrs of all ages whose blood, like the blood of Abel (Genesis 4:8-10), cries out to God for justice and a vindication of the truths for which they died. The Bible teaches that the dead in Christ rise and put on immortality when He returns. 1 Corinthians 15:51-53.

Revelation 6 Commentary

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Where's Israel if the seals are all about the church?

In the message(s) to the seven church's, it seems to me that Jesus had already stated to the church's how they are supposed to behave until He comes.

Douggg said:

Where's Israel if the seals are all about the church?

In the message(s) to the seven church's, it seems to me that Jesus had already stated to the church's how they are supposed to behave until He comes.

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Literal Israel as a nation ceased as God's chosen people with the stoning of Steven, and the Gospel went to the Gentiles.

John 15l am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

When the Jewish nation rejected the Messiah, the Gospel was spread to all nations. All who believe in the name of Jesus can now become the spiritual descendants of Abraham (Galatians 3:16, 29; Romans 4:16; 9:3-8).

The apostle Paul calls Christians “the Israel of God” and “the circumcision.” God gave circumcision to Abraham as a symbol of belonging to God's people. When Paul refers to all Christians as “the circumcision,” he reminds us that the Kingdom of God and the covenant promises associated with it were taken from the Jews and passed on to spiritual Israel. This new circumcision is not of the body but of the heart.

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder (Matthew 21:43-44).

Any who permit Christ to transform them and to change their character receive the new name of “Israel,” just as Jacob did thousands of years ago.

New Covenant Israel

Original Happy Camper said:

Literal Israel as a nation ceased as God's chosen people with the stoning of Steven, and the Gospel went to the Gentiles.

John 15l am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

When the Jewish nation rejected the Messiah, the Gospel was spread to all nations. All who believe in the name of Jesus can now become the spiritual descendants of Abraham (Galatians 3:16, 29; Romans 4:16; 9:3-8).

The apostle Paul calls Christians “the Israel of God” and “the circumcision.” God gave circumcision to Abraham as a symbol of belonging to God's people. When Paul refers to all Christians as “the circumcision,” he reminds us that the Kingdom of God and the covenant promises associated with it were taken from the Jews and passed on to spiritual Israel. This new circumcision is not of the body but of the heart.

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder (Matthew 21:43-44).

Any who permit Christ to transform them and to change their character receive the new name of “Israel,” just as Jacob did thousands of years ago.

New Covenant Israel

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How can Israel cease to exist when Gog/Magog is about Israel getting attacked in the end times?

Ezekiel 38:16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

Douggg said:

How can Israel cease to exist when Gog/Magog is about Israel getting attacked in the end times?

Ezekiel 38:16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

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Satan Freed at the Resurrection of the Rejecters of God
Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them (Revelation 20:7-9 NKJV).


Chains of circumstances will bind Satan when the rejecters of God are slain. For a thousand years, Satan and his evil angels will be trapped on the empty earth, with nothing to do but to contemplate the results of their chosen path. The rebellious people will come back to life when the thousand years was over (Revelation 20:5).

The resurrection of the rebellious of all ages will loose Satan's chains of circumstances, and he will spurn on the resurrected millions to take the Holy City (the New Jerusalem), which will come down from heaven, in one final effort to retain power (See Zechariah 14:4-5, Revelation 21:2,10).



God fights the Final Battle

In Ezekiel 38:2 and 39:6, Gog the king of Magog is described as an enemy of God's people. He is the leader of the host that would attack restored Israel (Ezekiel 38:2, 14-19), but he will meet his end “after many days” (Ezekiel 38:8).


“And it will come to pass at the same time, when Gog comes against the land of Israel,” says the Lord GOD, “that My fury will show in My face. For in My jealousy and in the fire of My wrath I have spoken: ‘Surely in that day there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel'” (Ezekiel 38:18-19 NKJV).

God will destroy Gog. God shows in this prophecy that Israel does not battle at all. Gog stands as a symbol of the leader of rebellion—Satan himself.

At the end of time, God will permit the final act of rebellion (the attack on the New Jerusalem) by Satan, his hosts, and the resurrected people who had turned away from God. He will do this to dispel any lingering doubt that the unrighteous—those in opposition to God and His people—are evil. Good and evil will stand opposite each other: God's people within the city, Satan's people without.

The Resurrection of those who Reject God | Final Battle

keras said:

God's Israelite people in the holy Land when Gog attacks, will not be the same people as is there now. Zephaniah 1:14-18

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Zephaniah 1 is a warning to Israel at the time of King of Joshiah, to stay away from the idol worship that had been going on for some time. The Day of God's wrath against the idol worship ended up being when the Babylonians captured Jerusalem and ended up with the Jews going into Babylon captivity.

However, it would also apply to the severity of God's judgment on evil in general, to take place during the end times. Which will be during the time of the great tribulation. Which will begin halfway through the 7 years following Gog/Magog.

keras said:

Careful reading of Ezekiel 38 and 39, makes it clear that the People gathered out of the nations, soon after the Land is devastated by the Lord's Day of wrath, are all the faithful Christian peoples; including the Messianic Jewish survivors. Romans 9:27

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No, it is not saying anything about the Gog/Magog being after the Land is devastated by the God's Day of wrath.

In Ezekiel 38, Israel is living in peace, prospering, having returned from being scattered into the nations.

Christians were not scattered into the nations. So it is not talking about Christians in Ezekiel 38/39.

keras said:

Dougggish! Zephaniah 1 was never fulfilled in ancient times. It is paralleled by many prophesies that tell about the end times.

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Read the text again. It is referring to baal worship. And worship of the stars. It is not modern Israel.

4 I will also stretch out mine hand upon Judah, and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and I will cut off the remnant of Baal from this place, and the name of the Chemarims with the priests;

5 And them that worship the host of heaven upon the housetops; and them that worship and that swear by the LORD, and that swear by Malcham;

But Christians are scattered among the nations and it is Christians who God will pour out His Spirit onto. Ezekiel 39:29, Joel 2:19-32 Note that Joel 2:20 refers to the G/M attack.

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Christians were not scattered by God. It is the house of Israel that scattered because it transgressed against Jesus by rejecting Jesus as their King. Their shame is that they rejected Jesus, the rightful King of Israel, who God sent to be be their king

Ezekiel 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.


It is not talking about the church.

keras said:

I have been to Israel. They worship Baal by many names there.
Haifa is the world headquarters of the Bai-hai faith. 20% are Muslim, even Judaism is far removed from true worship of God. Let alone the fact that half of the population are atheists!
Many, many prophesies tell us of the forthcoming Judgment of the Jews. Zephaniah 1:14-18 is just one of them. Only a remnant will survive. Romans 9:27

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I worked with a person who was Bahai. He was an Iranian and his wife was a Jew. He was a nice person, and did not show any evidence regarding baal worship. Bahai is basically universalism, started by a self-proclaimed prophet (false) Bahá'u'lláh (1817–1892).

The Jews are not worshiping Baal, nor the stars, like in the text of Zephaniah 1.

keras said:

A statement made from sheer ignorance of what God did plan for His people.
The Christian peoples are now scattered among the nations. They, we; ARE the House of Israel, literally and Spiritually.

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Read what it says, Keras, why the house of Israel was led into captivity. It is saying because of all their trespasses whereby they trespassed against me (Jesus speaking the text). That's not talking about the Church.

Ezekiel 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

keras said:

Any worship other than of Jesus and Almighty God, is Baal worship.

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What is your bible verse(s) basis for that statement?

You saw some in Israel worshiping molten images of Baal?

Not then, but now it is. Your quote of Ezekiel 39:26-28 remains unfulfilled. The true Israelites of God, his Christian peoples, the descendants of Jacob; literally and spiritually, the sheep of the Lord, will fulfil it. Ezekiel 34:11-16, John 10:1-20

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Of course Ezekiel 39:26-29 has not happened yet. But that is not why it is not referring to the church, Christians.

It is not referring to the church, Christians, because God did cause the church, Christians, to be led into captivity for trespassing against Him.

The church is not in Ezekiel 39:26-28. The church does not fit those passages. Or anywhere in Ezekiel 38-39.

Lost4words said:

Revelation is, as i have said before, the most misinterpreted book in the Bible. There are more experts on it than there are letters in the whole Bible!

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This is truth!