Has the modern church lost its balance on grace?

BNR32FAN

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Those who endure (genuine believers) give evidence to and confirm the genuineness of their faith. Those who deny Him (unbelievers/nominal Christians) which speaks of a final, permanent denial and not a temporary weak moment, as with Peter who denied Christ three times.

We also see this similar contrast between those who confess Christ and those who deny Him in Matthew 10:32-33. In context, this passage relates to the fact that the Pharisees continuously denied Jesus while the disciples continued to speak about Him everywhere they went. "Whoever confesses me before men (such as you disciples), I will confess him before my Father in heaven. But whoever denies me before men (like the Pharisees), I will deny him before my Father in heaven.

Those who confess Jesus are those who recognize Him as being the true Messiah and trust in Him as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. Those who deny Jesus (and those who give mere lip service confession) but refuse to trust in Him alone for salvation place themselves beyond any possibility of salvation, since salvation is found only in Him (John 3:15,16,18; 10:9; 14:6; Acts 4:12).

The word for "deny" is an aorist tense. This points to the fact that Jesus is not talking about a single instance of denial, as was the case with Peter, who denied Jesus three times (Luke 22:56-62) but is referring to a final, permanent denial. Hence, the person who throughout his life denies Christ (as was typically the case with the Pharisess and includes unbelievers who may even give mere "lip service confession" - Matthew 7:21-23, but lack saving faith in Christ) will be denied by Christ before the Father.

But Paul clearly said if WE deny Him He will deny US indicating that if Paul himself denied Christ then Christ would deny him. Paul was undoubtedly a true believer and yet he indicates that he himself is capable of denying Christ and losing his salvation. I’m not talking about a one time denial I’m talking about denial without repentance which is what Paul is referring to.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Is there grace in the law? I think hidden within, there is grace in God's breath and anointing in the law. For David found grace and Elijah and many others. The concepts alone, the letter kills. It is up to the Spirit to convict us of sins, not law makers.
 
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Aldebaran

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But Paul clearly said if WE deny Him He will deny US indicating that if Paul himself denied Christ then Christ would deny him. Paul was undoubtedly a true believer and yet he indicates that he himself is capable of denying Christ and losing his salvation. I’m not talking about a one time denial I’m talking about denial without repentance which is what Paul is referring to.

Couldn't He have been referring to unbelievers who never had any interest in Christ from the beginning? They certainly deny Him.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Couldn't He have been referring to unbelievers who never had any interest in Christ from the beginning? They certainly deny Him.

I think in that case he would’ve said if they deny Him He will deny them instead of if we deny Him He will deny us. Keep in mind eternal security was never taught in the early church until the mid 16th century and none of the early church writings reflect eternal security.
 
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Aldebaran

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I think in that case he would’ve said if they deny Him He will deny them instead of if we deny Him He will deny us. Keep in mind eternal security was never taught in the early church until the mid 16th century and none of the early church writings reflect eternal security.

Actually, He seemed to be referring to anyone at all. Matt 10:33:
"But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."
 
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BNR32FAN

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Actually, He seemed to be referring to anyone at all. Matt 10:33:
"But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."

I agree everyone including himself.
 
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I agree everyone including himself.

But if we're saved and do it, like Peter did in his moments of panic, does it still count? Peter didn't get denied. Now, what if Saddam Hussein showed up at your front door with a few of his men and a wood chipper that they threaten to throw you into feet first if you don't deny Christ right then and there, and you say, "Ok, fine! I don't know Him". What then?

BTW, I only mention the Saddam Hussein example because it was something that I heard actually happened to someone in Iraq back in the day. Of course, SH himself wasn't there at the person's door. ;)
 
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BNR32FAN

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But if we're saved and do it, like Peter did in his moments of panic, does it still count? Peter didn't get denied. Now, what if Saddam Hussein showed up at your front door with a few of his men and a wood chipper that they threaten to throw you into feet first if you don't deny Christ right then and there, and you say, "Ok, fine! I don't know Him". What then?

BTW, I only mention the Saddam Hussein example because it was something that I heard actually happened to someone in Iraq back in the day. Of course, SH himself wasn't there at the person's door. ;)

Personally I don’t believe Jesus was referring to a life threatening situation I believe He was speaking about those who deny Him of their free will.
 
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BNR32FAN

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But if we're saved and do it, like Peter did in his moments of panic, does it still count? Peter didn't get denied. Now, what if Saddam Hussein showed up at your front door with a few of his men and a wood chipper that they threaten to throw you into feet first if you don't deny Christ right then and there, and you say, "Ok, fine! I don't know Him". What then?

BTW, I only mention the Saddam Hussein example because it was something that I heard actually happened to someone in Iraq back in the day. Of course, SH himself wasn't there at the person's door. ;)

I’d like to think my faith is strong enough that I wouldn’t deny Him but who can honestly say for sure unless they’ve been in that situation before?
 
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Gods not mad

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You accuse me of pride, but I boast in the Lord, not in myself, and will continue to preach that His Word is true by examples and testimonies of His greatness. He did it all, just as His Word says He will do. I live in the awe and fear of the Lord. I don't dare sin. He has given me too much to lose the ability to hear His voice now. And His voice is everything.

just as i had no desire to sin you also felt you would not as well but without the test i see it as saying "I WILL" that was my point. if you don't see it as pride that's fine i'm not here to argue over personal experiences it"s just how i saw it.

i still don't buy the i don't sin position. never a though that is not in the mind of Christ? ever go over the speed limit. (romans 13:1-5) (titus 3:1) ? i'm curious have you intentionally had a though or ever sped over the posted limit. i know this is silly but i think is important to at least acknowledge

i don't disagree with anything you are saying except that sin is completely and fully a non issue at all times with in regards to you.

7 But “he who glories, let him glory in the Lord.” 18 For not he who commends himself is approved, but whom the Lord commends."

yes of course

That may be why you were rebuked. You were praising yourself. He has never rebuked me for praising Him, and giving Him all the glory. But I know enough to completely obey Him. I don't even pray my will for my needs, but LISTEN for what He tells me to pray for, THEN I pray His words exactly, and it comes to pass immediately.

yes that is why i was rebuked. and yes if we pray his will in faith through who he is and is through us the words will come to pass. that is what he promised.

1 John 3:21-23 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

yes a point i've been trying to make.

I never mentioned tongues, so don't know what accusation you are throwing out now, but I do know that if the Word of God is not true in ones life, it is not the Word that is not true. To make the Word experientially true in any person's life, they must repent, for He is the Spirit of Truth, and will do it if they let Him. Now that the truth has come out that you are not a seeker as you had deceived me, but actually a mocker of God's people, and seem to revere the teachings of your false teachers more than the Word of God, I will go on to others who need and really want my help.

i never said you did mentioned tongues i included it in my example of the the salvation experience. you did imply though that i am without Christ because i believe that we still have sin that we work through while being under the blood. really? i am not a seeker who has deceived you and a mocker of Gods people who also reveres false teachers more than the word of God. really? these are big statements before the Lord here in your accusations of me. all i have done is probe and ask questions. you can go back and read through our conversations and see i was nothing but curious about your position and gave you my honest opinions that's all. you have been the one on the defense attacking me as a follower of Christ something i have not done with you. you assume i don't repent/metanoia because why? because i said i still can admit that there is a struggle with the flesh.

the only difference between us seems to be i can admit that i still deal with the flesh and you have told me if i understand correctly that you have not sinned since 2001. this sounds once again like pride to me. pride of where you stand with Christ and all who you see as below you as not equals in the Lord. i've agreed with basically all we have discussed except my view on hebrews 10 and the dealing with the flesh but nope as you see it lost and without Christ. do you have some sort of level that one is saved according to you, and it appears that if in your estimation one has not hit your said level that one then is not equal with you so must be lost and without Christ. nonsense. i'm writing all this not because it matters to me but because i'm hoping you can see that this is not the spirit of mercy/grace. if you truly believed this and was as secure as you have said why is me asking you questions about sin so frustrating to you to where you have to attack my standing as a follower of Christ?

never a though that is not in the mind of Christ? ever go over the speed limit. (romans 13:1-5) (titus 3:1) ? i'm curious have you intentionally had a though or ever sped over the posted limit since 2001.

I will go on to others who need and really want my help.

i'm sorry but i never asked for your help. you are a child of God and i see your faith in who he is it was one of the reasons i wanted to talk to you. i believe you when you make references to hearing his voice feeling his presence and him moving mightly through your prayers prayed in his will. hallelujah Jesus what a great God he is. i love him more and more every day. i want you to know i believe you in who he is intimately (your close walk with him) but you are the one who took this conversation of the track by getting into the FLESH.
 
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1stcenturylady

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just as i had no desire to sin you also felt you would not as well but without the test i see it as saying "I WILL" that was my point. if you don't see it as pride that's fine i'm not here to argue over personal experiences it"s just how i saw it.

i still don't buy the i don't sin position. never a though that is not in the mind of Christ? ever go over the speed limit. (romans 13:1-5) (titus 3:1) ? i'm curious have you intentionally had a though or ever sped over the posted limit. i know this is silly but i think is important to at least acknowledge

i don't disagree with anything you are saying except that sin is completely and fully a non issue at all times with in regards to you.



yes of course



yes that is why i was rebuked. and yes if we pray his will in faith through who he is and is through us the words will come to pass. that is what he promised.



yes a point i've been trying to make.



i never said you did mentioned tongues i included it in my example of the the salvation experience. you did imply though that i am without Christ because i believe that we still have sin that we work through while being under the blood. really? i am not a seeker who has deceived you and a mocker of Gods people who also reveres false teachers more than the word of God. really? these are big statements before the Lord here in your accusations of me. all i have done is probe and ask questions. you can go back and read through our conversations and see i was nothing but curious about your position and gave you my honest opinions that's all. you have been the one on the defense attacking me as a follower of Christ something i have not done with you. you assume i don't repent/metanoia because why? because i said i still can admit that there is a struggle with the flesh.

the only difference between us seems to be i can admit that i still deal with the flesh and you have told me if i understand correctly that you have not sinned since 2001. this sounds once again like pride to me. pride of where you stand with Christ and all who you see as below you as not equals in the Lord. i've agreed with basically all we have discussed except my view on hebrews 10 and the dealing with the flesh but nope as you see it lost and without Christ. do you have some sort of level that one is saved according to you, and it appears that if in your estimation one has not hit your said level that one then is not equal with you so must be lost and without Christ. nonsense. i'm writing all this not because it matters to me but because i'm hoping you can see that this is not the spirit of mercy/grace. if you truly believed this and was as secure as you have said why is me asking you questions about sin so frustrating to you to where you have to attack my standing as a follower of Christ?

never a though that is not in the mind of Christ? ever go over the speed limit. (romans 13:1-5) (titus 3:1) ? i'm curious have you intentionally had a though or ever sped over the posted limit since 2001.



i'm sorry but i never asked for your help. you are a child of God and i see your faith in who he is it was one of the reasons i wanted to talk to you. i believe you when you make references to hearing his voice feeling his presence and him moving mightly through your prayers prayed in his will. hallelujah Jesus what a great God he is. i love him more and more every day. i want you to know i believe you in who he is intimately (your close walk with him) but you are the one who took this conversation of the track by getting into the FLESH.

(unread)
 
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Aldebaran

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I’d like to think my faith is strong enough that I wouldn’t deny Him but who can honestly say for sure unless they’ve been in that situation before?

Yes, exactly! Peter was one who said it best: "Peter replied, “Even if all fall away on account of you, I never will.” I don't want to be saying that, and then end up doing so as Peter did. But even if I don't say that, I could still easily do it. But then what?
Some might easily dismiss this idea as something we probably would never face in this day and age, but with ISIS and people who think like them around, we've seen the types of trials Christians have had to face, and what the results were. I picture myself in such a scenario and can't imagine doing what I can to escape it.
EDIT: I meant to say "can't imagine NOT doing what I can to escape it."
 
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hislegacy

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How many churches have you gone and experienced, and them formed your opinion?
It has become a common occurrence in the modern church to expose and condemn legalism, with people trying (and failing) to reign in the flesh by some sort of list made up of "Thou shalts..." and "Thou shalt not's". And that is wonderful, for it is by grace that we are saved, not of works lest any man should boast.

But something has been bothering me for a while now. Is it just me, or do you think it is possible that is our effort to magnify grace, we may be missing something...... the part where we are all called to follow Him, and seek Him and obey Him with all our hearts...... fervently?

For every verse about grace, I suspect there are two that are urging us to a deeper intimacy with Jesus, or warning us to not give place to the devil for he is fixed on stealing from us.

Paul talks about running our race as if there is but one prize. He exhorts CHRISTIANS to make their calling and election sure..... by enduring to the end. He tells us that it is our reasonable service to present ourselves as living sacrifices. Whoa.

James tells us that friendship with the world is enmity against God. He says that a double minded man is unstable in all of His ways and likens it to adultery against God.

Peter tells us to sober and vigilant, for our enemy goes about seeking whom he may devour.

Jesus Himself said that if we lose our lives for His sake, we save them. He says that we are His friends if we do whatsoever He commands us. unfortunately the opposite of both is true as well.

The question is.... do we have ears to hear? Do we want more? Do we believe it is even possible? How can we come to such a place? Listen, We must first hate our carnal lower nature..... what we consider "the normal us". Ouch.

Our understanding of Christianity is out of balance, don't you think? Why would there be warnings and exhortations against willful sin, or worldliness, lukewarmness, or being double minded literally throughout the New Testament? Have they now become of not applicable to us enlightened ones?
Grace trumps all, right?

How small (and quiet) the crowd that says we still need to pay heed to all of God's words to us, the goodnesss AND the severity? And no wonder. the ones bold enough to question our lack of balance are immediately labeled and shamed as heretics and legalists. They are told this is the new gospel, a grace so deep there is no need for balance, or even obedience. Free means free of all those pesky rules!

Hmmmmmm. Have we come to such a deep revelation of grace that we think that we can (of course, we WON'T) sin any sin, and not even necessarily repent, and STILL our names are already etched into the Lamb's book of life and cannot be removed? We need to think again.

What we are witnessing, and for the majority a part of, satan's finest masterstrokes. Magnify grace. Minimize sin and its consequences. Do you know what God calls it?

Turning the grace of God into lasciviousness.

To all who read these words, I beseech you, get before the Lord and prayerfully seek Him. Examine yourselves whether you are "in the faith" with both sides of the gospel. We are promised that if we will judge ourselves, we will not be judged. Ask yourself if the fellowship you are a part of is balanced, and found encouraging you to go deeper, to learn how to actually abide in Christ, where He promises we will NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Are you lulled into an ever deepening assurance that Heaven is yours or are you told that willful sin is death?

Listen guys. We have been given much. Lest we forget, to whom much is given, much is required. Amen?

*crickets*

blessings, Gids

(Now if you find such a commitment scares the heck out of you and that you fear you will fail or feel it too confining, may I promise you that He will move mountains in these last days to take us, change us, fill us and use us as lights leading others to Him?

The Bible does not call it "the glorious liberty of the children of God" for nothing. We are about to have our feet planted on the highway of holiness, but first we have to see that the road we are on is circular and our lives are passing, but we are getting nowhere, and worst of all, we have been brainwashed into thinking this is perfectly normal. May I humbly tell you.... it may appear normal. But if you stay on that path, it will lead you away from the light of life.

Time to wake up! Live, bones, live.

blessings, Gideon
 
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Phil W

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i agree brother grace without seeing our sin is not grace at all but a licence to remain in sin. This happens a lot in our modern Churches. Indeed we are all guilty one way or another for we are all sinners and being saved by Christ does not make us sinless but He saves us from our sins!

It is a process, the dirt of my heart must be cultivated to receive the good seed. That is what grace is for. To dig up our dirt a bit and for God to sow the good seed in our heart and for good fruits to materialise.

Ultimately grace leads to either repentance or to the lawless one(s). The lawless ones keep sinning without lasting remorse. The lawless ones are the goats with very big I's who enjoy doing it wrong. However those who repent get away from the sin that ensnared them, even if that takes some time, and are sanctified in that manner along the way. These are humble Christians who know what being saved by grace is all about for they enter God's rest and escape their sinful nature ever day again.

It is about relationship. When we see our sin and go to God for grace so that we may stop doing that then we love Him for grace and the love for God will cast dead sin in us - time and again. If however we don't build a relationship with Him but let our sin keep standing in the way then such will be an unfulfilled life and God's good life will not grow and we will bear little or no fruit. Such Christians miss out on the good thing big time.

It is written in the bible that those who sin shall die, so staying in sin can never bring us eternal good life. Rather life in sin will perish. Those who fight their sin rejoice at that prospect, but those who love sin cringe at that prospect.

So yes only God's truth shall set us free and whom the son sets free is free indeed.
I was a sinner before I turned from sin. (Repented of sin)
Now, by the grace of God, I'm an ex-sinner.
Not everybody is in rebellion against God.
 
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Phil W

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It’s few there are who find it because it’s few who trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..).
Can there be salvation with disobedience to God?
I think not.
 
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1stcenturylady

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I was a sinner before I turned from sin. (Repented of sin)
Now, by the grace of God, I'm an ex-sinner.
Not everybody is in rebellion against God.

Exactly. But not just an "ex-sinner," Jesus calls you a son of God. John 8:34-36
 
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Phil W

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But if we're saved and do it, like Peter did in his moments of panic, does it still count? Peter didn't get denied. Now, what if Saddam Hussein showed up at your front door with a few of his men and a wood chipper that they threaten to throw you into feet first if you don't deny Christ right then and there, and you say, "Ok, fine! I don't know Him". What then?

BTW, I only mention the Saddam Hussein example because it was something that I heard actually happened to someone in Iraq back in the day. Of course, SH himself wasn't there at the person's door. ;)
Peter had yet to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost when he denied Christ thrice.
He was still living in the OT till Jesus was raised from the dead.
 
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Phil W

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Personally I don’t believe Jesus was referring to a life threatening situation I believe He was speaking about those who deny Him of their free will.
What's the difference?
Christians have already given up their old lives in order to be Christians.
Remember, "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." (Gal 2:20)
If it is my time to go, it is my time to go...to the glory of God.
 
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