LDS The LDS/Mormon Godhead? Are LDS Teachings Debatable?

Rescued One · Apr 27, 2019

"So we are very comfortable, frankly, in letting it be known that we do not hold a fourth- or fifth-century, pagan-influenced view of the Godhead, and neither did those first Christian Saints who were eyewitnesses of the living Christ. We are New Testament—not Nicene—Christians."
Knowing the Godhead

GOD WAS ONCE A MORTAL MAN
(1-2) He Lived on an Earth like Our Own
“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power was to make himself visible,–I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form–like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another.” (Smith, Teachings, p. 345.)

(1-3) He Experienced Conditions Similar to Our Own and Advanced Step by Step
“Remember that God, our heavenly Father, was perhaps once a child, and mortal like we ourselves, and rose step by step in the scale of progress, in the school of advancement; has moved forward and overcome, until He has arrived at the point where He now is. “Is this really possible?” Why, my dear friends, how would you like to be governed by a ruler who has not been through all the vicissitudes of life that are common to us mortals? If he had not suffered, how could he sympathize with the distress of others? If he himself had not endured the same, how could he sympathize and be touched with the feelings of our infirmities? He could not, unless he himself had passed through the same ordeal, overcome, and overcome step by step.” (Orson Hyde in JD, 1:123.)
Achieving a Celestial Marriage Student Manual, copyright 1976, Corporation of the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, p. 129

Mark Quayle · Apr 27, 2019

Phoebe Ann said:
"So we are very comfortable, frankly, in letting it be known that we do not hold a fourth- or fifth-century, pagan-influenced view of the Godhead, and neither did those first Christian Saints who were eyewitnesses of the living Christ. We are New Testament—not Nicene—Christians."
Knowing the Godhead

GOD WAS ONCE A MORTAL MAN
(1-2) He Lived on an Earth like Our Own
“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power was to make himself visible,–I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form–like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another.” (Smith, Teachings, p. 345.)

(1-3) He Experienced Conditions Similar to Our Own and Advanced Step by Step
“Remember that God, our heavenly Father, was perhaps once a child, and mortal like we ourselves, and rose step by step in the scale of progress, in the school of advancement; has moved forward and overcome, until He has arrived at the point where He now is. “Is this really possible?” Why, my dear friends, how would you like to be governed by a ruler who has not been through all the vicissitudes of life that are common to us mortals? If he had not suffered, how could he sympathize with the distress of others? If he himself had not endured the same, how could he sympathize and be touched with the feelings of our infirmities? He could not, unless he himself had passed through the same ordeal, overcome, and overcome step by step.” (Orson Hyde in JD, 1:123.)
Achieving a Celestial Marriage Student Manual, copyright 1976, Corporation of the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, p. 129

Wow. Why, my dear friends, would you want to trust and give your complete heart and soul to less than the absolute maker and owner of all that is? The "once was man and became god" is not God, but utter foolishness.

crossnote · Apr 27, 2019

Phoebe Ann said:
GOD WAS ONCE A MORTAL MAN
(

Then who was the god that made God who was once man? and ad infinitum ad absurdum.!

Mark Quayle · Apr 27, 2019

crossnote said:
Then who was the god that made God who was once man? and ad infinitum ad absurdum.!

She was quoting what LDS says, I think. She does not think God is only one of many, nor a mere man become god.

He is the way · Apr 28, 2019

Perhaps people look at themselves and others and have a hard time believing that man can achieve perfection.There are a few scriptures that indicate that it is indeed possible for man to become perfect like God the Father:
(Old Testament | Genesis 6:9)

9 ¶ These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
(Old Testament | Genesis 17:1)

1 AND when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 32:4)

4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
(Old Testament | 2 Samuel 22:33)

33 God is my strength and power: and he maketh my way perfect.
(Old Testament | 1 Kings 8:61)

61 Let your heart therefore be perfect with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at this day.
(Old Testament | 1 Chronicles 28:9)

9 ¶ And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
(Old Testament | Job 1:1)

1 THERE was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.
(Old Testament | Job 8:20)

20 Behold, God will not cast away a perfect man, neither will he help the evil doers:
(Old Testament | Proverbs 4:18)

18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.
(New Testament | Matthew 5:48)

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
(New Testament | Matthew 19:21)

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
(New Testament | Luke 6:40)

40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
(New Testament | Luke 8:14)

14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
(New Testament | Luke 13:32)

32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.
(New Testament | John 17:22 - 23)
(New Testament | Philippians 2:5 - 6)

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 1:10)

10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 13:10)

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
(New Testament | 2 Corinthians 7:1)

1 HAVING therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
(New Testament | 2 Corinthians 13:11)

11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.
(New Testament | Ephesians 4:11 - 13)

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
(New Testament | Philippians 3:12 - 15)

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
(New Testament | Colossians 1:28)

28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
(New Testament | Colossians 3:14)

14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

I declare that we can become perfected unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.

Peter1000 · Apr 28, 2019

Mark Quayle said:
Wow. Why, my dear friends, would you want to trust and give your complete heart and soul to less than the absolute maker and owner of all that is? The "once was man and became god" is not God, but utter foolishness.

Why do you think the creator of all things came to earth to be a man. Giving up his glorious position and becoming a man similar to you? It is because if he did not know what you are going through, what your temptations were like, what your experience was, he could not judge you. He had to come to earth and have your same experience and be like you, in order to judge you fairly.

And Jesus is only doing what he saw his Father (God the Father) do. He could do nothing of himself. IOW he had to witness what his Father had done before him, so he could know what to do in his earthly ministry. It is not foolishness, it is truth.

Peter1000 · Apr 28, 2019

crossnote said:
Then who was the god that made God who was once man? and ad infinitum ad absurdum.!

We have not been told that answer. But it is of no consequence to us. We worship one God, though there be gods many, and lords many, but to us, there is but one God and he we worship, as Paul says.
1 Corinthians 8:5-6 King James Version (KJV)
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Peter1000 · Apr 28, 2019

1 Peter 1:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Matthew 5:48 King James Version (KJV)
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

2 Peter 1:4 King James Version (KJV)
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Revelation 3:21 King James Version (KJV)
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Romans 8:17 King James Version (KJV)
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

These 5 scriptures can help us understand that godliness is something real and is a true doctrine.
If we can be as holy as God
If we can be as perfect as God
If we can partake of His divine nature
If we can sit in his throne with him
If we can inherit all that God has

What are we? Think about it?

Peter1000 · Apr 28, 2019

The teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ are debatable just like the teachings of any Christian church.

But the teaching of the Church of Jesus Christ come from the bible and if they sound strange to you it is because you have grown up in a different tradition, a Nicean tradition. The Nicean tradition is a little different from a pure bible tradition.

In many doctrinal discussions, the bible tradition of the Church of Jesus Christ is the only way to reconcile all scriptures in the bible that relate to the doctrinal subject being debated. Some churches debate a subject by using just a few scriptures, and when presented with other scriptures that seem to take an opposite view, fight against those scriptures like they would rip them from the bible because they seem to contradict what they believe. We are willing to look at scripture from all sides, with all scriptures involved in the subject being discussed. Most churches are not willing to do that.

crossnote · Apr 28, 2019

Peter1000 said:
We have not been told that answer. But it is of no consequence to us. We worship one God, though there be gods many, and lords many, but to us, there is but one God and he we worship, as Paul says.
1 Corinthians 8:5-6 King James Version (KJV)
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

You mean 'one God at a time'?

Peter1000 · Apr 28, 2019

crossnote said:
You mean 'one God at a time'?

No, I mean just what I said, 1 God only and forever.

crossnote · Apr 28, 2019

Peter1000 said:
No, I mean just what I said, 1 God only and forever.

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! . . . I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute this idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. . . It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible . . . Here, then, is eternal life-to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power.4 The Father has a body of flesh and bone as tangible as man's". . . . (Doctrine and Covenants, 130:22.)

crossnote · Apr 28, 2019

He is the way said:
Perhaps people look at themselves and others and have a hard time believing that man can achieve perfection.There are a few scriptures that indicate that it is indeed possible for man to become perfect like God the Father:
(Old Testament | Genesis 6:9)

9 ¶ These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
(Old Testament | Genesis 17:1)

1 AND when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 32:4)

4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
(Old Testament | 2 Samuel 22:33)

33 God is my strength and power: and he maketh my way perfect.
(Old Testament | 1 Kings 8:61)

61 Let your heart therefore be perfect with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at this day.
(Old Testament | 1 Chronicles 28:9)

9 ¶ And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
(Old Testament | Job 1:1)

1 THERE was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.
(Old Testament | Job 8:20)

20 Behold, God will not cast away a perfect man, neither will he help the evil doers:
(Old Testament | Proverbs 4:18)

18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.
(New Testament | Matthew 5:48)

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
(New Testament | Matthew 19:21)

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
(New Testament | Luke 6:40)

40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
(New Testament | Luke 8:14)

14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
(New Testament | Luke 13:32)

32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.
(New Testament | John 17:22 - 23)
(New Testament | Philippians 2:5 - 6)

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 1:10)

10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 13:10)

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
(New Testament | 2 Corinthians 7:1)

1 HAVING therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
(New Testament | 2 Corinthians 13:11)

11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.
(New Testament | Ephesians 4:11 - 13)

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
(New Testament | Philippians 3:12 - 15)

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
(New Testament | Colossians 1:28)

28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
(New Testament | Colossians 3:14)

14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

I declare that we can become perfected unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.

I guess the serpent was the first to espouse Mormon teaching?...

For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
(Gen 3:5)

Peter1000 · Apr 28, 2019

crossnote said:
"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! . . . I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute this idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. . . It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible . . . Here, then, is eternal life-to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power.4 The Father has a body of flesh and bone as tangible as man's". . . . (Doctrine and Covenants, 130:22.)

Yes, like Paul said, there are gods many and lords many, but to us there is 1 God, whom we worship.

What that means is that we know there are many gods, but we also know that there is only 1 God that we worship. The same God that Jesus worshiped. God the Father.

Peter1000 · Apr 28, 2019

crossnote said:
I guess the serpent was the first to espouse Mormon teaching?...

For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
(Gen 3:5)

Is that a true statement from satan?

Mark Quayle · Apr 28, 2019

Peter1000 said:
Why do you think the creator of all things came to earth to be a man. Giving up his glorious position and becoming a man similar to you? It is because if he did not know what you are going through, what your temptations were like, what your experience was, he could not judge you. He had to come to earth and have your same experience and be like you, in order to judge you fairly.

And Jesus is only doing what he saw his Father (God the Father) do. He could do nothing of himself. IOW he had to witness what his Father had done before him, so he could know what to do in his earthly ministry. It is not foolishness, it is truth.

Did not know? We are not in a position to explain such things, but we have proof now that he experienced it (just in case someone should come along to tell us that he did not thoroughly know what he had created.

But the reason he came is to redeem us.

Rescued One · Apr 28, 2019

Peter1000 said:
We have not been told that answer. But it is of no consequence to us. We worship one God, though there be gods many, and lords many, but to us, there is but one God and he we worship, as Paul says.
1 Corinthians 8:5-6 King James Version (KJV)
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Why don't you worship the One Who saves?

Isaiah 43:10-11
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Your leaders told us that is Jesus speaking as a Spirit Man.

Rescued One · Apr 28, 2019

crossnote said:
"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! . . . I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute this idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. . . It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible . . . Here, then, is eternal life-to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one;
from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power.4

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1938, pp. 346–47.

I'm just adding the reference for you. Feel free to save it.

Rescued One · Apr 28, 2019

Peter1000 said:
No, I mean just what I said, 1 God only and forever.

[Jesus]He is the central focus of our worship. He is the Son of the living God, the Firstborn of the Father, the Only Begotten in the flesh, who left the royal courts on high to be born as a mortal in the most humble of circumstances. Of the loneliness of His living He said, “The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head” (Matt. 8:20). He “went about doing good” (Acts 10:38).
Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley, We Look to Christ, General Conderence, April 2002
We Look to Christ - President Gordon B. Hinckley

Peter1000 · Apr 28, 2019

Phoebe Ann said:
Why don't you worship the One Who saves?

Isaiah 43:10-11
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Your leaders told us that is Jesus speaking as a Spirit Man.

You mean Jesus? The name of our church is the Church of Jesus Christ. So we worship that God that Jesus worships. If Jesus came down and appeared to us we would be sure to worship him also.

LDS The LDS/Mormon Godhead? Are LDS Teachings Debatable?

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Berean

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Berean

Well-Known Member

Berean

Berean

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

Well-Known Member

Similar threads