Natural Family Planning & Number of Children

Markie Boy

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So I came to understand why contraception is wrong, and my wife and left that long behind. But I have heard mixed teaching on using NFP - some saying it's OK, some that it should not be used to limit the number of children except for extreme cases.

Where is the East on this one?
 

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The Orthodox Church isn't even quite there on contraception being "wrong". There are some people who hold that, others don't, and the official statements (or as close as we have) aren't there.
 
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HTacianas

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So I came to understand why contraception is wrong, and my wife and left that long behind. But I have heard mixed teaching on using NFP - some saying it's OK, some that it should not be used to limit the number of children except for extreme cases.

Where is the East on this one?

This article will help. But if it should conflict with what your priest or bishop have to say, follow their guidance.

The Orthodox Faith - Volume IV - Spirituality - Sexuality, Marriage, and Family - Family
 
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Andrei D

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The Orthodox Church isn't even quite there on contraception being "wrong". There are some people who hold that, others don't, and the official statements (or as close as we have) aren't there.

I don't really know about other Churches, but the Romanian Patriarchate and OCA both have clear, written positions.

Bottom line is that my Romanians conflate abortion with (medical) contraception as "serious sins" and there is no position on natural planning. They muddle a bit the water by adding medical reasons for which contraception is bad (i.e. cancer and cardiovascular risks!) to spiritual ones. However, the main point seems to be the risk to women's dignity who, with contraception available, are reduced to "objects of pleasure". (see here)

OCA on the other hand, separates abortion from contraception and adopts a different point of view. It is the decision to not have children, rather than the method used, that is problematic. On a case by case basis, there can be a justified reason for which one can decide to not have children and, at that time, any method that does not harm an already conceived fetus is equally acceptable, albeit "sad". (see here)

I must say, I find OCA's stance far more nuanced and well supported, even if I might be biased by the fact that I am OCA nowadays.
 
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NFP did not work for my wife and I, and we utilized it with extreme caution to the TEE! We had 3 kids in 3 years, blessings all, and I wouldn't trade those wonderful children for all the money on earth. That being said, if we had continued NFP, we'd be on kid #9 already at least. We often joke that we were so fertile, I could look at my wife across the room and get her pregnant. Sympto-thermal, all of it, I don't buy it at all.

But despite all this, TALK TO YOUR PRIEST as all have suggested! Crucial.
 
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abacabb3

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Every saint ever commenting on it is against *any* method of contraception, though NFP rarely came up, Augustine and Athenagoras explicitly said that sex should only be for procreation. However, very few people could do this so it has to be worked out with a priest who determines your spiritual regiment.
 
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rusmeister

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Contraception IS wrong, generally speaking. But many modern Orthodox don’t realize that. All of Christendom understood it until about 1930.

We all want to justify what we want. It doesn’t matter whether it is abortion, divorce, contraception. I want what I want, and I will find fancy words, modern psychology, and appeals to sentiment and pity in complete ignorance, and even open rejection, of what the Church taught throughout history. And they will say, “the Church hasn’t pronounced on it”. It is true there are some things the Church never formally pronounced on; the Church has only pronounced what became controversial and doubtful over time, the trend being that a thing was unthinkable, then it became thinkable, then people began promoting it, then a century or two of scandal before the Church pulled together and made a pronouncement.

I have met such opposition in the Church to the clear Church teaching that two practicing Orthodox Christians ought to live in continual repentance, learn to love each other when it becomes hard, and remain married for life. It has almost been enough to make me want to leave the Church, the fact that people are willing and eager to dump the traditional and ancient understandings in favor of what they want and call that “Orthodox”. And yes, I think it related to contraception; the resistance comes from the same place. Modern justifications, based on the real or perceived difficulties of life, which encourage us to change Christian teaching and make sin “not-sin”, and brokenness, not a thing to be corrected and fixed, but made perfectly acceptable.

No, I don’t even think “Ask your priest” good enough, when the priests go modern and off the rails left and right, and nobody knows what we are called to, how we are called to live any more, and everyone seeks to make that call a call to...what they happen to want, anyway. No one asks how we OUGHT to live, and everyone is looking for an exception card, a “Get Out of Jail Free” card to our personal martyrdom.
 
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ArmyMatt

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your first three paragraphs are absolutely correct, but your last one is absolutely wrong, rus. this is a pastoral consideration, which means it is something to ask your priest. that's canon 102 of Quinesext.
 
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rusmeister

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your first three paragraphs are absolutely correct, but your last one is absolutely wrong, rus. this is a pastoral consideration, which means it is something to ask your priest. that's canon 102 of Quinesext.
I think a great many pastors are going wrong. In large numbers. And that is what I really think, tautology seems necessary. So yeah, ask your priest, but some priests put more faith in (insert name of prominent modern psychologist here) than in the consensus of the Church on sexuality and marriage up to the twentieth century. I won’t find a single teaching anywhere OKing birth control anywhere in Tradition, and more than enough to condemn it, and yes, it has existed from ancient times, even if the Pill didn’t.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I think a great many pastors are going wrong. In large numbers. And that is what I really think, tautology seems necessary. So yeah, ask your priest, but some priests put more faith in (insert name of prominent modern psychologist here) than in the consensus of the Church on sexuality and marriage up to the twentieth century. I won’t find a single teaching anywhere OKing birth control anywhere in Tradition, and more than enough to condemn it, and yes, it has existed from ancient times, even if the Pill didn’t.

that's another issue. just because people abuse the rule, doesn't mean we should leave the rule. as strict as he is, even Fr Josiah Trenhem allows non-abortive birth control, often with penance depending on the circumstance.

the Church is also only pro-life. but what should happen if the baby starts developing in the fallopian tube? do we let the baby develop which will kill the baby and mother? do we abort? just because modernists would try to use this as a green light for Orthodoxy accepting abortion, should we not allow it in this specific case?
 
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rusmeister

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that's another issue. just because people abuse the rule, doesn't mean we should leave the rule. as strict as he is, even Fr Josiah Trenhem allows non-abortive birth control, often with penance depending on the circumstance.

the Church is also only pro-life. but what should happen if the baby starts developing in the fallopian tube? do we let the baby develop which will kill the baby and mother? do we abort? just because modernists would try to use this as a green light for Orthodoxy accepting abortion, should we not allow it in this specific case?
I understand all of this. I've been round this block a hundred times. They're not difficult questions.
Technology allows amazing things, both good and evil. If a baby anywhere in the womb can be saved, we have to do our best to save it. If it can't, we watch it die while doing our best to prevent that. That is totally different from deliberately killing it.

I agree on the rule of asking your priest. I'm only saying that too many priests have come to see modern, and anti-Church and anti-father ideas as normative. I too was caught up in the net. We wind up being of the world as well as in the world. That's why AFR can host a podcast promoting "Game of Thrones", say that their spiritual advisor OK'd it, and then deny responsibility for the content of podcasts. That's why phenomenal numbers of couple already in the Church get divorced, and now expect everybody to be totally OK with and approve of their decisions. I see it as all part of a piece: "Please approve my unwillingness to even try to strive to be holy". And I'm right there on that edge, too. I only think that I should admit that my sins are sins, and that I should at least try to repent of them. What I'm complaining about is a brokenness that people want to pretend is not even broken, but want others to approve of.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I understand all of this. I've been round this block a hundred times. They're not difficult questions.
Technology allows amazing things, both good and evil. If a baby anywhere in the womb can be saved, we have to do our best to save it. If it can't, we watch it die while doing our best to prevent that. That is totally different from deliberately killing it.

I agree on the rule of asking your priest. I'm only saying that too many priests have come to see modern, and anti-Church and anti-father ideas as normative. I too was caught up in the net. We wind up being of the world as well as in the world. That's why AFR can host a podcast promoting "Game of Thrones", say that their spiritual advisor OK'd it, and then deny responsibility for the content of podcasts. That's why phenomenal numbers of couple already in the Church get divorced, and now expect everybody to be totally OK with and approve of their decisions. I see it as all part of a piece: "Please approve my unwillingness to even try to strive to be holy". And I'm right there on that edge, too. I only think that I should admit that my sins are sins, and that I should at least try to repent of them. What I'm complaining about is a brokenness that people want to pretend is not even broken, but want others to approve of.

except that's not the issue. no one denies that folks take advantage of what the Church has always said to defend all sorts of erroneous positions.

but when you say that saying "ask your priest isn't enough" when something like this is a pastoral concern between the pastor and the married couple entrusted to his pastoral care according to the canons, you are becoming the very thing you are rightly concerned about.

just like how we don't have the right to ignore what the Church teaches is wrong, we also don't have the right to remove individual pastoral discernment in the application of Church teaching just because other people take advantage of it for their own ends.

so for anyone other than the bishop, ask your priest is enough and the only answer. especially coming from another layman.

and you didn't get my point about the baby. a baby that develops in the mother's tubes won't just die naturally. it can continue to develop which will kill both mother and child. in such a case, the only way to save the mother is to abort, and there is no way to save the baby.
 
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rusmeister

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except that's not the issue. no one denies that folks take advantage of what the Church has always said to defend all sorts of erroneous positions.

but when you say that saying "ask your priest isn't enough" when something like this is a pastoral concern between the pastor and the married couple entrusted to his pastoral care according to the canons, you are becoming the very thing you are rightly concerned about.

just like how we don't have the right to ignore what the Church teaches is wrong, we also don't have the right to remove individual pastoral discernment in the application of Church teaching just because other people take advantage of it for their own ends.

so for anyone other than the bishop, ask your priest is enough and the only answer. especially coming from another layman.

and you didn't get my point about the baby. a baby that develops in the mother's tubes won't just die naturally. it can continue to develop which will kill both mother and child. in such a case, the only way to save the mother is to abort, and there is no way to save the baby.

Actually, I did get your point about the baby, and was responding to that. “Abort” is used, as a euphemism (and I say that it is an evil euphemism), to mean “kill”. One can remove a fetus and do what one can to help it live - and as our technologies continue to develop, for better and for worse, this becomes increasingly possible.

If a priest gives a wrong answer, a layman is right to speak against it. If I am dead certain the priest has gone wrong, I cannot, and mustn’t, be silent. I do not assert my individual authority (I have none) in doing so. I assert what has always been taught, (as well as the logical inferences of that) against a modern spirit that is coming into the Church through its members (and could do so through me as well, of which I should be mindful, as they say, with fear and trembling). I’d better be sure I am in line with Scripture, the fathers, and Tradition. I find nothing that supports our attempts to control whether we have children and how many, and I find plenty that shows up the wrongness and failure of such attempts.

So yes, there MAY be a case where contraception is actually right and the best thing, and yes, a priest MAY actually determine that. But everyone clamors to be the exception, and priests almost always cave in, and so, what should be exceptional becomes the rule, and nearly everyone in the Church is doing it, as they do in the world. Exhortation to resist that desire to be excepted, to get the “Get Out of Jail Free” card, is close to non-existent, and from where I stand, it has reached a point where lay people think that ONLY a priest may even SUGGEST that they try to live a more holy life. Close to half of the families with multiple children have gotten divorced in my parish, and even my wife thinks that if “the chips were down”, divorce could be an option. And everyone is expected to walk around on eggshells and not talk about those “personal choices”. It’s become perfectly OK to break up families in an Orthodox church, and for everyone to carry on as if nothing has happened. They don’t even admit that it ought to be an exception anymore. It has become, “Well, if it doesn’t work out...”

People lived through the Great Depression and contraception was still generally frowned upon, even after the Lambeth Conference, which the Orthodox Church didn’t even take part in. It is we moderns who have changed our attitudes. It has become OK because it is OK in the world. It is in the world and of the world. I can conceive of an exception that says we should relax a rule which forbids it. Many here can no longer conceive of a rule which forbids it.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Actually, I did get your point about the baby, and was responding to that. “Abort” is used, as a euphemism (and I say that it is an evil euphemism), to mean “kill”. One can remove a fetus and do what one can to help it live - and as our technologies continue to develop, for better and for worse, this becomes increasingly possible.

If a priest gives a wrong answer, a layman is right to speak against it. If I am dead certain the priest has gone wrong, I cannot, and mustn’t, be silent. I do not assert my individual authority (I have none) in doing so. I assert what has always been taught, (as well as the logical inferences of that) against a modern spirit that is coming into the Church through its members (and could do so through me as well, of which I should be mindful, as they say, with fear and trembling). I’d better be sure I am in line with Scripture, the fathers, and Tradition. I find nothing that supports our attempts to control whether we have children and how many, and I find plenty that shows up the wrongness and failure of such attempts.

So yes, there MAY be a case where contraception is actually right and the best thing, and yes, a priest MAY actually determine that. But everyone clamors to be the exception, and priests almost always cave in, and so, what should be exceptional becomes the rule, and nearly everyone in the Church is doing it, as they do in the world. Exhortation to resist that desire to be excepted, to get the “Get Out of Jail Free” card, is close to non-existent, and from where I stand, it has reached a point where lay people think that ONLY a priest may even SUGGEST that they try to live a more holy life. Close to half of the families with multiple children have gotten divorced in my parish, and even my wife thinks that if “the chips were down”, divorce could be an option. And everyone is expected to walk around on eggshells and not talk about those “personal choices”. It’s become perfectly OK to break up families in an Orthodox church, and for everyone to carry on as if nothing has happened. They don’t even admit that it ought to be an exception anymore. It has become, “Well, if it doesn’t work out...”

People lived through the Great Depression and contraception was still generally frowned upon, even after the Lambeth Conference, which the Orthodox Church didn’t even take part in. It is we moderns who have changed our attitudes. It has become OK because it is OK in the world. It is in the world and of the world. I can conceive of an exception that says we should relax a rule which forbids it. Many here can no longer conceive of a rule which forbids it.

for your first point, a baby that starts developing in the tube will be dead along with mom by the time it's developed enough to survive outside.

and we are not talking about a priest giving a bad answer, and that was not what you originally said. you said that asking your priest doesn't go far enough. yeah it does. what happens after the answer is given is another matter. we have not gotten into any specifics of when contraception is permissible or not. that is another issue which was not yet asked.

I agreed that officially contraception is wrong, I agreed with you that far too many take advantage of pastoral care for their own ends. the only place I disagreed is when you said that asking your priest doesn't go far enough. before the priest gives any advice to his people, yeah it does.

and, yes, laymen have been right to challenge erroneous or heretical clergy. but it's always been with the blessing and support of correctly believing bishops. which is also another issue.
 
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rusmeister

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for your first point, a baby that starts developing in the tube will be dead along with mom by the time it's developed enough to survive outside.

and we are not talking about a priest giving a bad answer, and that was not what you originally said. you said that asking your priest doesn't go far enough. yeah it does. what happens after the answer is given is another matter. we have not gotten into any specifics of when contraception is permissible or not. that is another issue which was not yet asked.

I agreed that officially contraception is wrong, I agreed with you that far too many take advantage of pastoral care for their own ends. the only place I disagreed is when you said that asking your priest doesn't go far enough. before the priest gives any advice to his people, yeah it does.

and, yes, laymen have been right to challenge erroneous or heretical clergy. but it's always been with the blessing and support of correctly believing bishops. which is also another issue.

You don't seem to get my meaning on ectopics. I say to save the mother's life, and try NOT to kill the baby. Maybe right now, in 2019, we still can't save a 4-week fetus, but maybe in 2022 we will be able to. But in any event, we could at least TRY to learn to save such babies, and desire to do so. It's not abortion to remove an ectopic pregnancy. It IS abortion to deliberately kill the fetus by direct action intended to cause its death.

I don't think speaking of what is "officially" right or wrong to be on target, but what is ontologically, anthropologically and theologically right or wrong. To speak of "officially" implies officialdom, bureaucracy, and unreasonable laws that one might legitimately desire to get around.

On "Ask your priest", my meaning is NOT to say that one should not, and NOT that it is generally not good enough. Generally, it is. My whole complaint is about priests giving economia to parishioners steeped in an environment that doesn't even RECOGNIZE it as economia, meaning that they honestly don't see that it is generally wrong, and often now, even the priest doesn't see it as wrong, and that is where "Ask your priest" can break down. See 2/3 of the responses on this thread. I appear to be in a minority here on an issue in which we ought to have a clear understanding that it is a general violation of God's plan for marriage. All the excuses for it seek to avoid confronting that basic fact.

I would focus on what I just said: "It has become OK because it is OK in the world. It is in the world and of the world. I can conceive of an exception that says we should relax a rule which forbids it. Many here can no longer conceive of a rule which forbids it." (Let alone why such a rule would BE a rule)

Do you deny that?
 
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ArmyMatt

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You don't seem to get my meaning on ectopics. I say to save the mother's life, and try NOT to kill the baby. Maybe right now, in 2019, we still can't save a 4-week fetus, but maybe in 2022 we will be able to. But in any event, we could at least TRY to learn to save such babies, and desire to do so. It's not abortion to remove an ectopic pregnancy. It IS abortion to deliberately kill the fetus by direct action intended to cause its death.

I don't think speaking of what is "officially" right or wrong to be on target, but what is ontologically, anthropologically and theologically right or wrong. To speak of "officially" implies officialdom, bureaucracy, and unreasonable laws that one might legitimately desire to get around.

On "Ask your priest", my meaning is NOT to say that one should not, and NOT that it is generally not good enough. Generally, it is. My whole complaint is about priests giving economia to parishioners steeped in an environment that doesn't even RECOGNIZE it as economia, meaning that they honestly don't see that it is generally wrong, and often now, even the priest doesn't see it as wrong, and that is where "Ask your priest" can break down. See 2/3 of the responses on this thread. I appear to be in a minority here on an issue in which we ought to have a clear understanding that it is a general violation of God's plan for marriage. All the excuses for it seek to avoid confronting that basic fact.

I would focus on what I just said: "It has become OK because it is OK in the world. It is in the world and of the world. I can conceive of an exception that says we should relax a rule which forbids it. Many here can no longer conceive of a rule which forbids it." (Let alone why such a rule would BE a rule)

Do you deny that?

nowhere was anyone talking about what we can do in 2022 concerning abortion. I brought up how it is NOW.

and your numbers are wrong. it took 10 posts after the OP before you and I got into it. 5 of those posts have been to ask your priest. some have been unrelated. which means less than 1/2 are following the ways of the world. that's not 2/3.

and again, what you are saying now I have agreed with from the start, but that wasn't what I took issue with in your initial post.
 
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