Has the modern church lost its balance on grace?

Danthemailman said:

I never said that those who receive salvation do not abide in Christ. To "abide" means to remain, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present. Believers abide in Christ because they are saved and not to become saved. 1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. Faith in Christ that saves continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away.

Ephesians 5:6 (AMPC) - Let no one delude and deceive you with empty excuses and groundless arguments [for these sins], for through these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of rebellion and disobedience. (descriptive of unbelievers) 7 So do not associate or be sharers with them. 8 For once you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord; walk as children of Light [lead the lives of those native-born to the Light].

In Ephesians 2:1, we read - And you He made alive, who were (past tense) dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked (past tense) according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, (unbelievers) 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

1 John 3:7 - Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, (descriptive of children of God) just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin (descriptive of children of the devil) is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

To ultimately reject God as a believer/child of God is unfathomable to me! I never once seriously considered withdrawing my faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. It's too engrained in me and I'm too convinced. Praise the Lord!

Proverbs 24:16 - For a righteous man may fall seven times And rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity. Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off. *God's grace does not negate His preservation.

Philippians 1:6 - being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ. Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

If you wish to remain on that roller coaster ride of fear and bondage to IN-security (the same roller coaster ride that I got off of upon my conversion several years ago after leaving the Roman Catholic church) then be my guest, but you will NEVER convince me to join you.

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You actually did say we don’t need to abide in Christ because your saying we don’t have to do any good works to receive salvation.

“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭15:5‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Jesus said if we abide in Him we WILL bear MUCH fruit. He didn’t say we might bear fruit or we might bear a little fruit He said we WILL bear MUCH fruit. It’s cause & effect. If we abide in Him we bear much fruit if we don’t bear much fruit we are not abiding in Him and face the consequences He mentions in verses 2 and 6 which results in loss of salvation.

“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away (cuts off or removes from the vine which is Christ) and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭15:2‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭15:6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Branches can’t be tossed away to wither and tossed into the fire unless they are first cut off from the vine. I believe I’ve already shown you the definition of the Greek word used for cut off or removed used in verse 2.

The context of this 1 John 4 is about testing spirits to see if it is of God.

“Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.”
‭‭1 JOHN‬ ‭4:1-3‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. By this (if we love one another) we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.”
‭‭1 JOHN‬ ‭4:12-13‬ ‭NASB‬‬

You keep on doing the same thing over and over. Are you just searching for particular verses and cultivating them to fit your agenda or are you actually reading the entire message to get the full understanding of what is being said? Your next quote is another prime example of this. You completely skipped the warning Paul gave the Ephesians in chapter 5. I can only think that this is intentional because I clearly pointed it out and you began your quote omitting the warning he gave in the previous verse. You conveniently only quoted verse 6.

“Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭EPHESIANS‬ ‭5:6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

What do you think Paul meant when he said “these things”? Do you think he was referring to empty words or was he referring to the sinful actions that he had just mentioned in verses 4 & 5?

“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things (the sins listed in verses 4 & 5) the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them; for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light”
‭‭EPHESIANS‬ ‭5:1-8‬ ‭NASB‬‬

So what your saying in your quote of Ephesians 2 is that they were saved while they were dead in their trespasses and now they don’t have to refrain from these actions anymore? If that were the case then Paul would not have told them in Ephesians 5 that they must not commit the sins he mentions in Ephesians 5:4-5. He specifically says in verse 5 if they do these things they will have no inheritance in the kingdom of God and because of these things the wrath of God falls on the Sons of disobedience. Paul is still speaking to these very same people in chapter 2 who are saved. It’s the same letter written to the same people. You say that “the spirit who works in the sons of disobedience” is referring to unbelievers. That’s an assumption. Paul doesn’t say this is the actions of unbelievers it’s the actions of the ungodly. Believers can be ungodly if they choose to. No one has lost their free will when they received grace or the Holy Spirit. That’s the very reason for all the warnings written to believers about living an ungodly way of life. Yes we are justified (made right with God) by grace thru faith while we were dead in our sins but that doesn’t mean we received a license to live an ungodly life and expect to receive salvation. It means God has enabled us and given us the ability thru the Holy Spirit to overcome temptation and determine what is and isn’t godly. Without the Holy Spirit’s guidance we would not have the ability to live a godly life. The Holy Spirit is like a compass always pointing the way to God. He does not steer the boat. If we don’t follow the compass we will find ourselves way off course.

Again you quoted 1 John 3 without reading the entire message. As I pointed out in Ephesians 5 children of God can become ungodly and receive God’s wrath on the sons of disobedience and have no inheritance in the kingdom of God. John 15:2 branches that are “in Christ” can be cut off from the vine and thrown into the fire. Romans 11:17-23 branches that are grafted in can be cut off and grafted in again if they repent. Look at the rest of the message in 1 John 3.

“We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death. Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. But whoever has the world's goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him? Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. We will know by this that we are of the truth, and will assure our heart before Him in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things. Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight. This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.”
‭‭1 JOHN‬ ‭3:14-24‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Abiding in Christ is not simply believing and doing nothing. You keep trying to quote bits and pieces of scripture but ignoring that parts that don’t fit your beliefs. Your beliefs MUST be in line with ALL scripture otherwise it is a false belief.

Danthemailman said:

1 John 1:6 - If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Walking in darkness is descriptive of children of the devil. Walking in the light is descriptive of children of God. *Only those who are saved/believers are in the light.

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

Ephesians 5:8 - for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light. Children of the devil walk in darkness, not in the light. Children of God walk in the light, not in darkness. *IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.

In 1 John 2:9, we read - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. In vs. 11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

*Compare with 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, (compare with 1 John 1:6 - does not practice the truth) nor is he who does not love his brother. *Notice that "walks in darkness, hates his brother" is connected to "children of the devil."

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1 John 1:6 Notice the word “we”. John is including himself in this message.

“If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.”
‭‭1 JOHN‬ ‭1:6-7‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Was John a believer? Was he a child of God? Paul also includes himself as being capable of losing salvation in 2 Timothy 2:12.

“If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;”
‭‭2 TIMOTHY‬ ‭2:12‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Was Paul a believer and a child of God? Both Paul and John admitted that even they were capable of losing their salvation.

BNR32FAN said:

You actually did say we don’t need to abide in Christ because your saying we don’t have to do any good works to receive salvation.

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Good works are the fruit of salvation and not the cause. Don't put the cart before the horse.

“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭15:5‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Jesus said if we abide in Him we WILL bear MUCH fruit. He didn’t say we might bear fruit or we might bear a little fruit He said we WILL bear MUCH fruit. It’s cause & effect. If we abide in Him we bear much fruit if we don’t bear much fruit we are not abiding in Him and face the consequences He mentions in verses 2 and 6 which results in loss of salvation.

“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away (cuts off or removes from the vine which is Christ) and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭15:2‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭15:6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Branches can’t be tossed away to wither and tossed into the fire unless they are first cut off from the vine. I believe I’ve already shown you the definition of the Greek word used for cut off or removed used in verse 2.

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In regards to John 15:2 (no loss of salvation here) I like how Greek scholar AT Robertson points out that there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). The fruitless (not bearing fruit, mh peron karpon) the vine-dresser "takes away" (airei) or prunes away. Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas. - John 15:2 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

The branches that bear fruit and remain are believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches (cosmic connection) that bear no fruit and do not remain are unbelievers "nominal Christians" (like Judas Iscariot) and those who were offended by the words of Jesus and walked with Him no more - John 6:60-64. So what is the heart of the reason why people (like Judas Iscariot) did not abide in Jesus? Because Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11).

In John 15, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. *So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established. Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no productivity of fruit. Those who "profess" to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is "self-attached," Christ neither saved them, nor keeps them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches (like Judas Iscariot) are cut off. *Nowhere do we find the specific words, "loss of salvation" in John 15.

Abiding in Christ is not simply believing and doing nothing. You keep trying to quote bits and pieces of scripture but ignoring that parts that don’t fit your beliefs. Your beliefs MUST be in line with ALL scripture otherwise it is a false belief.

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Believers who abide in Christ do not merely sit back and do nothing. That is a straw man argument. Abiding in Christ is not a special level of Christian experience that is only available only to a few, elite Christians, but is the position of all true believers. Don't confuse the fruit of abiding with abiding itself. My beliefs are in line with ALL scripture. We must properly harmonize scripture with scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine, as I demonstrated with John 15.

BNR32FAN said:

1 John 1:6 Notice the word “we”. John is including himself in this message.

“If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.”
‭‭1 JOHN‬ ‭1:6-7‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Was John a believer? Was he a child of God? Paul also includes himself as being capable of losing salvation in 2 Timothy 2:12.

“If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;”
‭‭2 TIMOTHY‬ ‭2:12‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Was Paul a believer and a child of God? Both Paul and John admitted that even they were capable of losing their salvation.

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"We" includes all who "say" they have fellowship with Him and yet walk in darkness. Of course John was a believer and not a hypocrite who walked in darkness. NOWHERE do we find the words "lose salvation" in the Bible. Those who endure demonstrate they are genuine believers/Christians. Those who deny Him demonstrate they are unbelievers "nominal" Christians. *IF confirms these positions.

You seem gullible to the fact that it's not hard to find "nominal" Christians mixed in with genuine Christians, hence the SAY and IF.

Danthemailman said:

Good works are the fruit of salvation and not the cause. Don't put the cart before the horse.

In regards to John 15:2 (no loss of salvation here) I like how Greek scholar AT Robertson points out that there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). The fruitless (not bearing fruit, mh peron karpon) the vine-dresser "takes away" (airei) or prunes away. Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas. - John 15:2 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

The branches that bear fruit and remain are believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches (cosmic connection) that bear no fruit and do not remain are unbelievers "nominal Christians" (like Judas Iscariot) and those who were offended by the words of Jesus and walked with Him no more - John 6:60-64. So what is the heart of the reason why people (like Judas Iscariot) did not abide in Jesus? Because Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11).

In John 15, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. *So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established. Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no productivity of fruit. Those who "profess" to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is "self-attached," Christ neither saved them, nor keeps them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches (like Judas Iscariot) are cut off. *Nowhere do we find the specific words, "loss of salvation" in John 15.

Believers who abide in Christ do not merely sit back and do nothing. That is a straw man argument. Abiding in Christ is not a special level of Christian experience that is only available only to a few, elite Christians, but is the position of all true believers. Don't confuse the fruit of abiding with abiding itself. My beliefs are in line with ALL scripture. We must properly harmonize scripture with scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine, as I demonstrated with John 15.

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Yes Judas never believed in Christ. The problem here is your basically saying that the branches that are cut off were never true believers which means they were never in Christ to begin with which is contrary to what verse 2 says. Another indication is that Jesus told His 11 faithful apostles to “remain (abide) in Him”. His 11 faithful apostles were undoubtedly true believers. So if they are incapable of failing to remain in Him this message is useless. Why would Jesus command them to do something that they are incapable of failing to do? Why does He say you cannot bear fruit unless you abide in Me? The word unless suggests that there is a possibility that they can fail to abide otherwise this message is useless.

Danthemailman said:

1 John 1:6 - If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Walking in darkness is descriptive of children of the devil. Walking in the light is descriptive of children of God. *Only those who are saved/believers are in the light.

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

Ephesians 5:8 - for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light. Children of the devil walk in darkness, not in the light. Children of God walk in the light, not in darkness. *IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.

In 1 John 2:9, we read - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. In vs. 11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

*Compare with 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, (compare with 1 John 1:6 - does not practice the truth) nor is he who does not love his brother. *Notice that "walks in darkness, hates his brother" is connected to "children of the devil."

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I agree. You're preaching to the choir! LOL

Danthemailman said:

I've been a member of multiple Christian forums for a number of years and have seen it time and time again.

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I think this is the problem. Internet forms are not a good measuring stick of... well... anything really. They tend to attract a disproportionate and vocal amount of the fringes. It's no different here. Not that forums don't have value, but they shouldn't be our measuring stick.

i have bee reading through your post and in attempt to try to understand your point further i would like to ask you a few questions and make a few points.

1stcenturylady said:

For a few centuries now, the lie that grace is a license to sin with no rules has plagued the Church, and is seen in every denomination, whether Calvinism or Arminianism. They have turned the grace of God into licentiousness. But are they really wrong if the true definition of grace is "unmerited favor"? If we are no longer under the law, but under grace, then isn't breaking the law without condemnation okay for those who believe in Jesus? Isn't it the law we are free from?

But unmerited favor is NOT the definition of the apostles for God's grace. To understand the apostle's writings, you must think like a Jew, and understand Semitic writing styles. One style is called parallelism, saying the same thing twice for clarity. Here is an example that specifically concerns God's grace.

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(titus 2:11-15) does this not say God has given us grace upon salvation to instruct us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live godly in this present age. while we are looking for the blessed hope and appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ. then goes on to say he gave himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed and to purify for himself a people of his own. zealous for good works. isn't grace being defined here as the vehicle that carries us and remains with us to his appearing. that grace remains with us as sin is dealt with not at the cross (that is finished and resulted in mercy/grace) but within the individual as faith and wisdom grow. so is there a level that if you drop below you are not counted as righteous. sin should never be acceptable. i hate sin it destroys but as a child of God grows (which will continue until physical death) they will willfully sin so unmerited grace is there to cover one and to strengthen one, because our standing is in his righteousness we can not affect that no matter what we do. again though if one is truly in faith a son/daughter sin will be hated but sometimes we do the things we don't want to do.

Gods grace and nature never changes towards his own even as we fluctuate. our standing as righteous can not be changed because we did not establish that standing Christ did. Christ has place his righteousness within us and his spirit will always be walking us towards that day when we will have our new bodies but a certain level of transformation is not required in order to be considered worthy. you are already worthy by the blood. sin comes due to root causes and the fall of adam and that nature can still trip up Gods children (romans 7:20). when we sin yes intentional sin it is the old man/flesh rising up and if you add in a root cause (lets say rejection) that sin may become a habitual sin. this is where grace shows up and in unmerited favor and love the Lord pursues relentlessly to bring us back to a growth process in that area but ones righteousness and salvation is never in question. (ephesians 2:8) our faith produces good works (james 2) good works can not produce faith we need the savior continually and he's offered a continual walk. Christ is taking us as his children through the process but the grace of God is unmerited for once you belong to him he can not deny himself. (2 timothy 2:12-13).

1stcenturylady said:

Acts 4:33
And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all.

The conclusion: God's grace is God's POWER given to us when we are baptized in the Holy Spirit and born again of the Spirit of Christ. It is NOT the righteous requirements of the law we are free from; it is sin, itself, we are free from. Romans 6:2 "we are dead to sin."

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(acts 4:33) abundant grace was upon them all because they believed the gospel of Christ as they gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord. the power was within them as they were delivering the message because of their faith in Christ and the finished work on the cross. Gods grace caused them to love one another which resulted in good works not for righteousness but because he first loved them. i don't see how power and grace are the same other then by receiving Gods grace and knowing your standing can not be taken from you so then he is able to work in power because it is not diluted with works which cheapens grace. yes we are dead to sin not because we still don't sin but because greater is he who is in you than he who is in the world. once again this is- how do i see my standing in Christ am i righteous not because of me but because oh him or do i need to perform works to help God make me righteous.

1stcenturylady said:

Romans 8:1-9
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. (Modern versions do not include this highlighted condition. Thus the misinterpretation and the lie of unmerited favor is born.) 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

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i'm aware of this controversy did the scholar add it twice on mistake or was it emitted i don't know. i don't think you can be certain either. but lets assume it was meant to be there.
verse 1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." see opinion below.
verse 2 "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death." so if one is in Christ and his unchangeable standing is righteousness by the sacrifice of the sinless lamb of God on the cross and it is finished then they are in the spirit and not the flesh even if they fall and sin. when we are faithless he remains faithful.
verse 3 "For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh. "how did he condemn sin in the flesh by taking the punishment for us by sending his son on account of sin.
verse 4 our repeated verse. walk according to the spirit having your trust fully in him for you are righteous.
one thing that will help in the understanding of romans chapter 8 is (romans 7:14-25) the very words right before the start of chapter 8.

1stcenturylady said:

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

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the word repent in greek is metanoia which means change your mind. so change your mind your thinking on who Christ is and receive his righteousness. confess or homologeo which is agree with. repentance is coming into agreement with your standing this is why paul had so much power by the way along with his boasting in his infirmities for then God would get all the glory because he had no "works" that he could point to but it was all of the Lord.

1stcenturylady said:

John 8:34-36
Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed. (We are free from SIN! Not free TO sin!)

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he is offering them himself not saying we will never sin. a son will abide FOREVER. there for if you are free you are free. of course not to sin why would we but if we do.......

1stcenturylady said:

1 John 3:5-9

And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

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and he did take away our sins on the cross it is finished. whoever has standing of righteousness does not sin because they are under the blood and what does God look at you or the blood. he sees his son this is Jesus saying truth. if you sin without his blood on you then yes you don't him. matter of fact you never met him.

1stcenturylady said:

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

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your highlighted verse 9 proves my point. God looks at the blood not you and your works.

i have given you my opinions so i would like to ask you a question.

after reading through your post there is a lot of undertones of i don't sin because i am holy kinda thing going on here. now in Christ we as his children are made righteous but (1 john 1:8-9).

since you have been saved and filled with the holy spirit have you
willfully and intentionally sinned?
in any way have you transgressed the law of God?

and if so where does that leave you in your mind. (james 2:10)= if Christ has not done this for us how can we do it for ourselves. we can't. grace is not a license to sin it is an understanding of our position of righteousness in Christ and that we still do sin.

Gods not mad said:

i hate sin it destroys but as a child of God grows (which will continue until physical death) they will willfully sin so unmerited grace is there to cover one and to strengthen one, because our standing is in his righteousness we can not affect that no matter what we do. again though if one is truly in faith a son/daughter sin will be hated but sometimes we do the things we don't want to do.

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I agreed until this point.

There are two types of sin. One a Christian cannot do, and the other we all do. Willful sin is of the devil and of a dark heart, and a Christian has no desire to commit a willful sin of lawlessness, or of the flesh. The other type of sin is trespasses. A trespass is not willful; it is unwittingly committed, and unintentional. We commit these even when walking in the light, because they are based on maturity of fruit. Some fruit is not fully ripe, but we are still abiding in Christ, and His blood is continually cleansing these sins that are not of the heart.

Leviticus 5:15 “If a person commits a trespass, and sins unintentionally

No where in scripture is grace referred to as unmerited favor. Favor, yes, but unmerited was added. The true meaning of God's grace is God's power.

You are quoting Romans 7, which is BEFORE Christ and receiving the Holy Spirit - Romans 8. Romans 7 is still about being under the law in your old sinful nature. That sinful nature is what makes you do what you don't want to do. The Spirit takes us out of the flesh and into the Spirit, where we are instructed to abide and endure to the end. Romans 8:9

Aldebaran said:

What if a Christian automatically gets angry when someone punches him or insults him? Would that be a sign that he doesn't have the Spirit of Christ? The person in question would have to learn to control his anger and not act out in the flesh, but it's not automatic. Since you said that the person who has the Spirit "has the fruit of the Spirit in his life and he automatically conducts himself according to that fruit without any effort at all", I have to ask this.

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Anger, itself, is not a sin. Paul says to "be angry, but sin not." So it is what you do in reaction to that anger that could become a sin.

Aldebaran said:

But it's a natural reaction that comes from feeling personally violated, and one that would naturally result (if unchecked) in a defensive move, such as to insult the other person or punch him back. Jesus didn't do that, and I doubt He had to restrain Himself from doing so. I could be wrong about that, but that's my understanding.

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To live peaceably, sometimes we need to change where we go and who we choose as friends. Even with friends we can become unequally yoked.

Gideons300 said:

GMTA, lol. (God-led minds think alike.)

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LOL