Is Baptismal Regeneration False?

Saint Steven · Apr 28, 2019

nolidad said:
Water baptism is not necessary for salvation. If it was then works are essential. We are commanded to be baptized as believers, but not for salvation, but for discipleship! Some people do not get bsaptized for lengthy periods after their profession of faith. Are you saying they do not have the Spirit and are unsaved!

That goes against Romans 10 and Acts 4, and all of Galatians.

I agree with you.
And just to be clear, this is not a list of REQUIREMENTS for salvation.
This is a list of the order (or lack thereof) of the elements we are discussing from the book of Acts. I'll add (optional) designations to the list.

Those who believe receive the indwelling Spirit and are therefore saved.
The baptisms follow, but are not salvation requirements. Some may disagree.

1) Believe
2) Be water baptized (optional)
3) Receive the indwelling Spirit
4) Receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit for power (manifestations) (optional)
5) Not necessarily in that order, step #4 is optional

nolidad · Apr 28, 2019

Hillsage said:
Ouch, sorry for the hands...I have more of an arthritic brain I think...or not...or maybe...I'm not sure...I guess.

Let's look at that verse closer. First off, I don't See Holy Spirit anywhere in this verse...only Spirit.

1CO 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

So does this mean the Spirit did the baptizing? I'd say no. I do believe it is BY one Spirit we become partakers of what? The body of Christ so it's the Spirit of Christ? Or are you saying it's the body of God so it's the Holy Spirit???? That doesn't work for me. IOW I see nothing in this verse to prove your position of the Holy Spirit. BTW there are those here who think I have arthritis of the head too, but I suspect it's just hardheadedness. Either way, you'll have to prove your POV with a different verse.

If John's baptism forgave sins then why did Jesus still have to die. Why not just continue with water baptism?

.
I'm going to lean on scripture for my POV.

MAT 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Now you say you're a Baptist, so I'm pretty sure you don't believe you're in the wrong kingdom because you aren't Roman Catholic, right? As for me, I was....born, baptized, raised, wed and then divorced as an RC. But then in 'the church' as a divorcee I was told; "Cant take communion again unless she dies." "Can't get married again, unless she dies" "Be sure to bring your money....til the day you die." Well, at 19 I figured I must have committed some pretty unforgiveable sin, so I decided I'd just tell God to screw himself and I'd go to hell with my friends....and I'd make damn sure I was worthy of being there. But....SURPRISE...4 years later the hound of heaven hunted me down and I got radically born again/SAVED...for the first time. So now I do have a different take on this verse than I was taught before. And the verse 18 which I quoted above...precedes your "Keys" verse 19. So I'd like to hear your take on my verse first....being a Baptist and not a KEY carrying Peter kind of believer....I assume.

I disagree, I believe it was God who gave Peter the vision on the roof that made him go. And all he did was preach the gospel. I've seen lots of people hear 'the gospel' and none of them got saved. So we're still stuck brother.

This is getting more complicated, now we have more disagreements. But we had to go to the movie and I see Steve will take on your 'upper room' POV. Since that's still fresh from another thread.

Saint Steven · Apr 28, 2019

nolidad said:
I am not worried if it THE upper room or just simply a room. It matters not a whit to me, what matters to me is that in that room- The church was born and people received something brand new from God- the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit and being made a new creature!

Two problems with this, if not three.
1) Nothing in Acts chapter two about ANY room.
2) You are inferring that the 120 did not have the indwelling Spirit before Pentecost.
3) Inferring that the 120 was not ALREADY the church.

nolidad · Apr 28, 2019

Hillsage said:
Ouch, sorry for the hands...I have more of an arthritic brain I think...or not...or maybe...I'm not sure...I guess.

Let's look at that verse closer. First off, I don't See Holy Spirit anywhere in this verse...only Spirit.

1CO 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

So does this mean the Spirit did the baptizing? I'd say no. I do believe it is BY one Spirit we become partakers of what? The body of Christ so it's the Spirit of Christ? Or are you saying it's the body of God so it's the Holy Spirit???? That doesn't work for me. IOW I see nothing in this verse to prove your position of the Holy Spirit. BTW there are those here who think I have arthritis of the head too, but I suspect it's just hardheadedness. Either way, you'll have to prove your POV with a different verse.

If John's baptism forgave sins then why did Jesus still have to die. Why not just continue with water baptism?

.
I'm going to lean on scripture for my POV.

MAT 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Now you say you're a Baptist, so I'm pretty sure you don't believe you're in the wrong kingdom because you aren't Roman Catholic, right? As for me, I was....born, baptized, raised, wed and then divorced as an RC. But then in 'the church' as a divorcee I was told; "Cant take communion again unless she dies." "Can't get married again, unless she dies" "Be sure to bring your money....til the day you die." Well, at 19 I figured I must have committed some pretty unforgiveable sin, so I decided I'd just tell God to screw himself and I'd go to hell with my friends....and I'd make damn sure I was worthy of being there. But....SURPRISE...4 years later the hound of heaven hunted me down and I got radically born again/SAVED...for the first time. So now I do have a different take on this verse than I was taught before. And the verse 18 which I quoted above...precedes your "Keys" verse 19. So I'd like to hear your take on my verse first....being a Baptist and not a KEY carrying Peter kind of believer....I assume.

I disagree, I believe it was God who gave Peter the vision on the roof that made him go. And all he did was preach the gospel. I've seen lots of people hear 'the gospel' and none of them got saved. So we're still stuck brother.

This is getting more complicated, now we have more disagreements. But we had to go to the movie and I see Steve will take on your 'upper room' POV. Since that's still fresh from another thread.

True it does not say Holy Spirit- so what Spirit do you think did the baptizing? Mans spirit? the Spirit of antichrist? I think that might be splitting hairs.

Point 2: We are the body of Christ! we enter into it through the baptism of the holy spirit as told in Corinthians. The spirit of christ is the Holy Spirit! It is also called the Spirit of God, teh Spirit, the Holy Spirit etc.etc.etc..

Point 3: You must remember that John was operating under the Mosaic economy of law. OT forgiveness was not complete cleansing of sin but a covering for sin as declared in Hebrews 9. these people were saved and forgiven, not by baptisms or the blood of bulls and goats but by faith in God!

Point 4: Peter as the rock- you miss the important wordplay in the greek . Peters is pebble or small stone (petros) the rock (petra or large rock like a cliff or boulder etd.) is the statemetnt that Peter made that Jesus is the Christ- the son of the living God! That is the only way to understand that passage grammatically and doctrinally. Peter never led the church.

Point 5: I was born and raised a Roman Catholic. I got saved as a satanist and went back to the catholic church (only thing I knew) I received a bible from the person who shared Christ with me and starting growing. I was asked to leave catholicism or face a tribunal for heresy! I do nto recognize denominations per se: but realize that faith in Christ saves people , not what particular denomination one belongs to. NO denomination has a lock on salvation.

As for what ou are trying to say about the rock and keys I am not sure so I cannot comment effectively.

Point 6: It was God who gave Peter the vision of the unclean foods. This urged Peter to go! I agree just hearing the gospel does not save a soul! It is believing it that causes one to be born again as a new creature in Christ! And I am not talking about mere mental assent but trusitng in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ alone as the only and full payment for all my sins.

nolidad · Apr 28, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Two problems with this, if not three.
1) Nothing in Acts chapter two about ANY room.
2) You are inferring that the 120 did not have the indwelling Spirit before Pentecost.
3) Inferring that the 120 was not ALREADY the church.

Okay they were in one place! Acts one has them in an upper room, but that me be an earlier time.

Well if you can point to the fulfilling of the promise Jesus made in Luke 24:49 I am all ears. But this in Acts 2 is well written and shows a new thing and is the first time we see a fulfillment of the promise.

Well the church is only comprised of those baptised in the spirit so unless you can show that there was a baptism of the spirit prior to acts 2, I see Acts 2 as the birth of the church. If you are implying the church(the body of Christ) existed prior to acts 2- it had to happen sometime after MAtt. 16! Jesus said He will build His church (that is future not past or present). So if you can show the birth of the Church prior to the disciples recieivng the Spirit in Acts 2 I am all ears!

nolidad · Apr 28, 2019

Saint Steven said:
That must have been a HUGE upper room. Three thousand people were saved and baptized after Peter preached that same day, within a few hours time probably. What were you saying about only 120 being there? And how come Acts chapter two says nothing about an upper room? How does that even work?

I also gave you several examples that fell outside your claims to which you have no specific answers. Then you have the audacity to try to inform me about where "believers err" ???? --- All too obvious.

Furthermore, when the Holy Spirit came on believers (the baptism of the Holy Spirit) in the book of acts there was evidence, typically as either tongues, or prophecy. How does that fit in your view? (it doesn't)

nolidad · Apr 28, 2019

Saint Steven said:
That must have been a HUGE upper room. Three thousand people were saved and baptized after Peter preached that same day, within a few hours time probably. What were you saying about only 120 being there? And how come Acts chapter two says nothing about an upper room? How does that even work?

I also gave you several examples that fell outside your claims to which you have no specific answers. Then you have the audacity to try to inform me about where "believers err" ???? --- All too obvious.

Furthermore, when the Holy Spirit came on believers (the baptism of the Holy Spirit) in the book of acts there was evidence, typically as either tongues, or prophecy. How does that fit in your view? (it doesn't)

No it was not a big room. The preaching and believing of the three thousand came after the spirit indwelt those in one accord.

As for the charisms displayed by the apostles- that was simply a sign. 1 Cor. 12 shows that not all believers receive all gifts. Once again you are conflating things beyind what is being said about a unique time in history!

nolidad · Apr 28, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Two problems with this, if not three.
1) Nothing in Acts chapter two about ANY room.
2) You are inferring that the 120 did not have the indwelling Spirit before Pentecost.
3) Inferring that the 120 was not ALREADY the church.

I don't know if it was you or someone else who asked this (it has been a long time since I was on this site) but I will sayi it here.

I do not think that Peter was the first Pope! Not even an altar boy! Peter just opened the way for for people groups to be saved (Jews, samaritans and gentiles)

JLB777 · Apr 28, 2019

John the Ex-Baptist said:
If you are someone opposed to the doctrine of baptismal regeneration, please give your reasons for being opposed, and preferably back up your argument from the text of Scripture.

Baptismal regeneration is a relevant doctrine.

Water baptismal regeneration is not.

The first thing in understanding this is to separate and identify the three baptisms found in scripture.

JLB

Hillsage · Apr 28, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Two problems with this, if not three.
1) Nothing in Acts chapter two about ANY room.
2) You are inferring that the 120 did not have the indwelling Spirit before Pentecost.
3) Inferring that the 120 was not ALREADY the church.

As believers at the Great Commission weeks earlier I'm going to say that they had the Spirit of Christ in them and not the Holy Spirit. And the Spirit of Christ in them was conceived BY the Holy Spirit just as it was in Jesus

nolidad · Apr 28, 2019

Hillsage said:
As believers at the Great Commission weeks earlier I'm going to say that they had the Spirit of Christ in them and not the Holy Spirit. And the Spirit of Christ in them was conceived BY the Holy Spirit just as it was in Jesus

The Spirit of Christ is the Holy Spirit and it had not yet been given to men!

2 Cor. 3: 17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Jesus is Lord and the Spirit of the Lord is part of the triune Godhead!

JLB777 · Apr 28, 2019

nolidad said:
The Spirit of Christ is the Holy Spirit and it had not yet been given to men!

2 Cor. 3: 17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Jesus is Lord and the Spirit of the Lord is part of the triune Godhead!

And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit. John 21:22

JLB

Saint Steven · Apr 28, 2019

nolidad said:
Well if you can point to the fulfilling of the promise Jesus made in Luke 24:49 I am all ears.

Where was the Temple located?

Saint Steven · Apr 28, 2019

nolidad said:
Well the church is only comprised of those baptised in the spirit so unless you can show that there was a baptism of the spirit prior to acts 2, I see Acts 2 as the birth of the church. If you are implying the church(the body of Christ) existed prior to acts 2- it had to happen sometime after MAtt. 16! Jesus said He will build His church (that is future not past or present). So if you can show the birth of the Church prior to the disciples recieivng the Spirit in Acts 2 I am all ears!

I think you answered your own question.
Luke sixteen is before Acts two.

Saint Steven · Apr 28, 2019

nolidad said:
No it was not a big room. The preaching and believing of the three thousand came after the spirit indwelt those in one accord.

After?
How long after? Spell out the logistics. How did it work?

Saint Steven · Apr 28, 2019

nolidad said:
As for the charisms displayed by the apostles- that was simply a sign. 1 Cor. 12 shows that not all believers receive all gifts. Once again you are conflating things beyind what is being said about a unique time in history!

A unique time? (have you been called?)
- for you and your children
- for all who are far off
- for all whom the Lord our God will call

Acts 2:39
The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

Hillsage · Apr 28, 2019

nolidad said:
True it does not say Holy Spirit- so what Spirit do you think did the baptizing? Mans spirit? the Spirit of antichrist? I think that might be splitting hairs.

Splitting hairs indeed. That's why I don't want to get adversarial about any of this 'stuff'. Who cares? On judgment day God isn't going to say nolidad you walked like a saint but you had some bad doctrine "GO TO HELL! and burn until I say "WELL DONE".

No I don't think our spirit does anything but get "born from above" or "born again". And I believe that is accomplished for us just like it was for Jesus. The Holy Spirit conceived the Sspirit of Christ in Jesus and He does the same thing for our spirits. They aren't resurrected because they're dead...they are regenerated/rebirthed and become "the Sspirit of Christ in you (us), the hope of glory." There in lies the trouble with translators who know not when to capitalize Sspirit or not.

Point 2: We are the body of Christ! we enter into it through the baptism of the holy spirit as told in Corinthians. The spirit of christ is the Holy Spirit! It is also called the Spirit of God, teh Spirit, the Holy Spirit etc.etc.etc..

We are the body of Christ because we have the same Sspirit that Christ had IN him from birth. A birth we don't have until we are born again "BRETHREN" with him.

HEB 2:17 Therefore he had to be made like his brethren in every respect,..

Point 3: You must remember that John was operating under the Mosaic economy of law. OT forgiveness was not complete cleansing of sin but a covering for sin as declared in Hebrews 9. these people were saved and forgiven, not by baptisms or the blood of bulls and goats but by faith in God!

It was not an ETERNAL cleansing at all nor was it ETERNAL forgiveness at all. All salvation of the OT was considered TEMPORAL for the consequence of sin HERE AND NOW. That's why we still do have to have temporal repentance for our sins so we don't 'reap and sow' the 'temporal consequence' of sin....even though the 'eternal consequence' price has been paid. Sin committed after getting saved still lead to the temporal death of our mortal bodies.

Point 4: Peter as the rock- you miss the important wordplay in the greek . Peters is pebble or small stone (petros) the rock (petra or large rock like a cliff or boulder etd.) is the statemetnt that Peter made that Jesus is the Christ- the son of the living God! That is the only way to understand that passage grammatically and doctrinally. Peter never led the church.

No, I missed nothing. I've believed that way for decades. :oldthumbsup:

We're on the same page. Personally I think that those were the keys for entrance into the kingdom...God calling AND us accepting...not for rebirth salvation, but for entrance into the kingdom of God being manifested here. Which is what the disciples did, under the authority of Jesus but not because they were born again. Being born again wasn't even available for them until after the cross.

Point 5: I was born and raised a Roman Catholic. I got saved as a satanist and went back to the catholic church (only thing I knew) I received a bible from the person who shared Christ with me and starting growing. I was asked to leave catholicism or face a tribunal for heresy! I do nto recognize denominations per se: but realize that faith in Christ saves people , not what particular denomination one belongs to. NO denomination has a lock on salvation.

Nor do I recognize denominations. My mother got saved as a RC. She did so not at water baptism, but at confirmation (supposed baptism of Holy Spirit ritual). She told the nun she really didn't know what confirmation was for. What the nun told her fits the definition for getting born again IMO. But I always say that when JESUS looks down at 'the Church' which He said HE WOULD BUILD....He only sees ONE CHURCH. And it is scattered through out all the divisions that the religious spirit of Satan has divided us in to.

As for what ou are trying to say about the rock and keys I am not sure so I cannot comment effectively.

Basically what we just said. The Rock was the 'stone/pebble' differentiation between 'the Revelation' from the father that Jesus was "the Christ" which leads to us accepting Him and receiving His Spirit of Christ in us making us "living stones" which make up the TEMPLE that the Holy Spirit dwells in. Our individual bodies are not 'the temple'. We as "living stones" and Jesus as the "cornerstone" make up the singular corporate body/temple.

EPH 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into A holy temple in the Lord; 22 in whom you also are built into it for A dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

Saint Steven · Apr 28, 2019

Hillsage said:
As believers at the Great Commission weeks earlier I'm going to say that they had the Spirit of Christ in them and not the Holy Spirit. And the Spirit of Christ in them was conceived BY the Holy Spirit just as it was in Jesus

What do you make of this?

John 20:22
And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

Saint Steven · Apr 28, 2019

Hillsage said:
"GO TO HELL! and burn until I say "WELL DONE".

That is so funny. I didn't want to add a "Funny" vote to the whole post.

Reminds me of the guy who arrived for his first day in heaven and was assigned to the barbeque grill to cook lunch. Jesus walked up to the grill with his plate and the newbie asked, "How do you like your hamburger cooked, Lord?" To which Jesus replied, "Well done, my good and faithful servant!"

Hillsage · Apr 28, 2019

nolidad said:
The Spirit of Christ is the Holy Spirit and it had not yet been given to men!

2 Cor. 3: 17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Jesus is Lord and the Spirit of the Lord is part of the triune Godhead!

Read your quote again and tell me that you believe YOU are the third part of the triune Godhead because the Holy Spirit is in you. Consistency is a jewel to be sought for nolidad, and what you say above doesn't sit consistent with me.

Already covered this bro. Nothing in this verse says 'THE Holy Spirit'. You assume it means that because Sspirit is capitalized by men. This is not a matter of correctlytranslating Greek because there was no help for capitalization in the original Greek manuscripts. I'll post here the reason why I say that. Below is the Introduction from one of my libraries INTERLINEAR GREEK ENGLISH text books. Read this well, because these are guys who do textual criticism at a higher level than those spitting out over a 1000 different translations of the NT today.

INTERLINEAR GREEK ENGLISH NEW TESTAMENT
ZONDERVAN PUBLISHED 1972. Based on STEVENS GREEK TEXT

Introduction page iii

5. Capitals.- The only remark needed here is in reference to the names of God, of Christ, and of the Holy Spirit. The greatest difficulty is touching
the word 'Spirit.' In some places it is very difficult to say whether the Holy Spirit as a person or the spirit of the Christian is referred to (see Rom.8:9) ; and if sometimes a small letter and sometimes a capital had been placed to the word (pneuma in the Greek) and if sometimes a small letter and sometimes a capital had been placed to the word (pneuma), in the Greek, persons would naturally have concluded that the question was thus indisputably settled. It was therefore judged best to put a small s in the Greek everywhere. In the English we have been obliged to put a capital S when the Holy Spirit was referred to and so have retained it wherever we thought this was the case; but in some places it is really doubtful, and becomes a question for the spiritual judgment of the reader.

The Greek will not help in the difficulty, because in the earliest copies every letter was a capital. In the other names we have followed the usage of modern editors; putting in the Greek a capital to Jesus but a small letter for Christ, and a small letter for Lord and for God.

As you can note above, these GREEK SCHOLARS are telling the READERS...US...that true understanding here, on this subject of correct capitalization, is up to the "spiritual judgment of the reader". So I guess the decision lies in His hands as to who here has chosen wisely in formulating their doctrinal box POV. And of course I think I'm right. :bow:

Is Baptismal Regeneration False?

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