Why the 'Church Fathers' Don't Thrill Me.

crossnote said:

I know the Fathers have some good things to say as most Christians do, but this?

Ignatius Bishop of Antioch (98-117A.D.) – Epistle to the Magnesians

For if we are still practicing Judaism, we admit that we have not received God’s favor…it is wrong to talk about Jesus Christ and live like Jews. For Christianity did not believe in Judaism, but Judaism in Christianity.



"Epistle of Barnabas" Chapter 4vs 6-7 (between 130A.D. and 138 A.D.)

Take heed to yourselves and be not like some piling up you sins and saying that the covenant is theirs as well as ours. It is ours, but they (the Jews) lost it completely just after Moses received it.



Justin Martyr - Dialogue with Trypho (Between 138A.D. and 161 A.D.)

We too, would observe your circumcision of the flesh, your Sabbath days, and in a word, all you festivals, if we were not aware of the reason why they were imposed upon you, namely, because of your sins and the hardness of heart.

The custom of circumcising the flesh, handed down from Abraham, was given to you as a distinguishing mark, to set you off from other nations and from us Christians. The purpose of this was that you and only you might suffer the afflictions that are now justly yours; that only your land be desolated, and you cities ruined by fire, that the fruits of you land be eaten by strangers before your very eyes; that not one of you be permitted to enter your city of Jerusalem. Your circumcision of the flesh is the only mark by which you can certainly be distinguished from other men…as I stated before it was by reason of your sins and the sins of your fathers that, among other precepts, God imposed upon you the observence of the sabbath as a mark.



Origen of Alexandria (185-254 A.D.) – A ecclesiastical writer and teacher who contributed to the early formation of Christian doctrines.

We may thus assert in utter confidence that the Jews will not return to their earlier situation, for they have committed the most abominable of crimes, in forming this conspiracy against the Savior of the human race…hence the city where Jesus suffered was necessarily destroyed, the Jewish nation was driven from its country, and another people was called by God to the blessed election.



John Chrysostom (344-407 A.D.) – One of the "greatest" of church fathers; known as "The Golden Mouthed." A missionary preacher famous for his sermons and addresses.

The synagogue is worse than a brothel…it is the den of scoundrels and the repair of wild beasts…the temple of demons devoted to idolatrous cults…the refuge of brigands and dabauchees, and the cavern of devils. It is a criminal assembly of Jews…a place of meeting for the assassins of Christ… a house worse than a drinking shop…a den of thieves, a house of ill fame, a dwelling of iniquity, the refuge of devils, a gulf and a abyss of perdition."…"I would say the same things about their souls… As for me, I hate the synagogue…I hate the Jews for the same reason.

From "The Roots of Christian Anti-Semitism" by Malcolm Hay



St. Augustine (c. 354-430 A.D.), Confessions, 12.14

How hateful to me are the enemies of your Scripture! How I wish that you would slay them (the Jews) with your two-edged sword, so that there should be none to oppose your word! Gladly would I have them die to themselves and live to you!



Peter the Venerable – known as "the meekest of men, a model of Christian charity"

Yes, you Jews. I say, do I address you; you, who till this very day, deny the Son of God. How long, poor wretches, will ye not believe the truth? Truly I doubt whether a Jew can be really human… I lead out from its den a monstrous animal, and show it as a laughing stock in the amphitheater of the world, in the sight of all the people. I bring thee forward, thou Jew, thou brute beast, in the sight of all men.

From "The Roots of Christian Anti-Semitism" by Malcolm Hay



Martin Luther – 1543

On The Jews and Their Lies

What then shall we Christians do with this damned, rejected race of Jews? Since they live among us and we know about their lying and blasphemy and cursing, we can not tolerate them if we do not wish to share in their lies, curses, and blasphemy. In this way we cannot quench the inextinguishable fire of divine rage nor convert the Jews. We must prayerfully and reverentially practice a merciful severity. Perhaps we may save a few from the fire and flames [of hell]. We must not seek vengeance. They are surely being punished a thousand times more than we might wish them. Let me give you my honest advice.

First, their synagogues should be set on fire, and whatever does not burn up should be covered or spread over with dirt so that no one may ever be able to see a cinder or stone of it. And this ought to be done for the honor of God and of Christianity in order that God may see that we are Christians, and that we have not wittingly tolerated or approved of such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of His Son and His Christians.

Secondly, their homes should likewise be broken down and destroyed. For they perpetrate the same things there that they do in their synagogues. For this reason they ought to be put under one roof or in a stable, like gypsies, in order that they may realize that they are not masters in our land, as they boast, but miserable captives, as they complain of incessantly before God with bitter wailing.

Thirdly, they should be deprived of their prayer-books and Talmuds in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught.

Fourthly, their rabbis must be forbidden under threat of death to teach any more...

Fifthly, passport and traveling privileges should be absolutely forbidden to the Jews. For they have no business in the rural districts since they are not nobles, nor officials, nor merchants, nor the like. Let them stay at home...If you princes and nobles do not close the road legally to such exploiters, then some troop ought to ride against them, for they will learn from this pamphlet what the Jews are and how to handle them and that they ought not to be protected. You ought not, you cannot protect them, unless in the eyes of God you want to share all their abomination...

To sum up, dear princes and nobles who have Jews in your domains, if this advice of mine does not suit you, then find a better one so that you and we may all be free of this insufferable devilish burden - the Jews...

Let the government deal with them in this respect, as I have suggested. But whether the government acts or not, let everyone at least be guided by his own conscience and form for himself a definition or image of a Jew. When you lay eyes on or think of a Jew you must say to yourself: Alas, that mouth which I there behold has cursed and execrated and maligned every Saturday my dear Lord Jesus Christ, who has redeemed me with his precious blood; in addition, it prayed and pleaded before God that I, my wife and children, and all Christians might be stabbed to death and perish miserably. And he himself would gladly do this if he were able, in order to appropriate our goods...

Such a desperate, thoroughly evil, poisonous, and devilish lot are these Jews, who for these fourteen hundred years have been and still are our plague, our pestilence, and our misfortune.

I have read and heard many stories about the Jews which agree with this judgment of Christ, namely, how they have poisoned wells, made assassinations, kidnapped children, as related before. I have heard that one Jew sent another Jew, and this by means of a Christian, a pot of blood, together with a barrel of wine, in which when drunk empty, a dead Jew was found. There are many other similar stories. For their kidnapping of children they have often been burned at the stake or banished (as we already heard). I am well aware that they deny all of this. However, it all coincides with the judgment of Christ which declares that they are venomous, bitter, vindictive, tricky serpents, assassins, and children of the devil, who sting and work harm stealthily wherever they cannot do it openly. For this reason, I would like to see them where there are no Christians. The Turks and other heathen do not tolerate what we Christians endure from these venomous serpents and young devils...next to the devil, a Christian has no more bitter and galling foe than a Jew. There is no other to whom we accord as many benefactions and from whom we suffer as much as we do from these base children of the devil, this brood of vipers.

Translated by Martin H. Bertram, "On The Jews and Their Lies, Luther's Works, Volume 47"; Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1971.



Martin Luther - 1543

Of The Unknowable Name and The Generations of Christ

But your [God’s] judgment is right, justus es Dominie. Yes, so shall Jews, but no one else be punished, who held your word and miracles in contempt and ridiculed, insulted and damned it for such a long time without interruption, so that they will not fall, like other humans, heathens and all the others, into sin and death, not up in Hell, nor in the middle of Hell but in the pit of Hell, as one cannot fall deeper...

Even if they were punished in the most gruesome manner that the streets ran with their blood, that their dead would be counted, not in the hundred thousands, but in the millions, as happened under Vespasian in Jerusalem and for evil under Hadrian, still they must insist on being right even if after these 1,500 years they were in misery another 1,500 years, still God must be a liar and they must be correct. In sum, they are the devil’s children, damned to Hell...

The Jews too got what they deserved. They had been called and elected to be God’s mouth as Jeremiah says...Open your mouth wide and I will fill it; they however, kept tightly closed their muzzles, eyes, ears, nose, whole heart and all senses, so he polluted and squirted them so full that it oozes from them in all places and devil’s filth comes from them.

Yes, that tastes good to them, into their hearts, they smack their lips like swine. That is how they want it. Call more: ‘Crucify him, crucify him.’ Scream more: ‘His blood come upon us and our children.’ (Matthew 27:25) I mean it came and found you...

Perhaps, one of the merciful Saints among us Christians may think I am behaving too crude and disdainfully against the poor, miserable Jews in that I deal with them so sarcastically and insulting. But, good God, I am much too mild in insulting such devils…


John Calvin

A Response To Questions and Objections of a Certain Jew

Their [the Jews] rotten and unbending stiffneckedness deserves that they be oppressed unendingly and without measure or end and that they die in their misery without the pity of anyone.

Anti-Semitism of the "Church Fathers"

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It is really as simple as this. It’s why we have our own Bibles to read ourselves. The Bible possessing, Bible reading reading world is not the same world as the ancient one. Where the general public did not have nor read Bibles.
Notice that the Bible reading world has had a growing affection for the Jewish people and visa versa.

The greatest contribution the church fathers and other intermediary groups had with is is not their doctrines. But their part in preservation and compiling of what is now the New Testament.
Isaiah 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Yeah, I'm not gonna brook such talk. Our fathers, while in no way infallible, established the faith throughout the world, and cannot be undervalued or undercut but by those who have foolishly and pridefully made themselves the judges of those who have brought us the apostolic faith of Christ. I would not want to set myself up as such a person, and won't listen to anyone else who thinks they have found reason to. I respect that the particular quotes you have presented in the OP have given you a bad impression of some of the fathers (as others have pointed out, some of the quoted writers are not fathers at all), but to therefore hurl insults at them and such is absolutely unacceptable.

There are certain things that I don't agree with certain fathers on, either (e.g., St. Justin Martyr's apparent belief in preexistence of matter), but that does not make them any less fathers. If the standard were infallibility, then no one would stand.

Crossnote ... so do you think that Ignatius was upset about Jews in general, or was his anger really directed at the rampant corruption, poisonous thoughts and wicked schemes of the ruling class of Jewish society at the time?

BTW, Ignatius' letters were often rushed. That was probably because he was chained on ships between cages carrying leopards. And he was abused by a bunch of roughshod soldiers who behaved like barbarians. All this happened ... before finally he was murdered for entertainment at the Great Circus in Rome.

The World was such a charming place ... back then.

And BTW you are correct about the Apostle Paul ... the man was incredible with his compassion and love.

TuxAme said:

The theology of the Church Fathers is solid irregardless of their moral failings. (But Luther and Calvin aren't Church Fathers, and neither is their theology solid)

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When do we know the infallible hat is or when it's taken off?

crossnote said:

Perhaps, but those citations all point to Jewish leaders or Roman leaders, neither of which are our examples.

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So does that mean we are talking about some other Jews? Ignatius of Antioch wrote prior to the Bar Kokhba Revolt. You should look into the treatment of Christians by the Jews during that time.

But anyway, I don't see how an angry Jewish mob killing a person implies "Jewish leaders or Roman leaders".

crossnote said:

Actually the topic revolves around the writings of the Church Fathers...who should have known better than Jewish leaders, Roman soldiers or an 'angry mob of Jews'.

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The writings of the Church Fathers on the Jews are products of their times. When Jesus said "go forth into all the world..." the Church Fathers were the men who did that. And for them to literally risk and also give their lives to advance the gospel what impressions would you have them hold of those who outright rejected it, condemned it, and were the cause of the first martyrs for it?

HTacianas said:

The writings of the Church Fathers on the Jews are products of their times. When Jesus said "go forth into all the world..." the Church Fathers were the men who did that. And for them to literally risk and also give their lives to advance the gospel what impressions would you have them hold of those who outright rejected it, condemned it, and were the cause of the first martyrs for it?

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two sides to every story, one-sided biased reports will only enflame & polarize the present situation, think this is not the way to "build bridges of understanding" and bring about healing:

"sticks & stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me"
"actions speak louder than words"

If some ECFs uttered harsh words of vitriol, did the same ECFs ever resort to actual violence ? However much we blame men for their words, so much more for their actual physical deeds ? Would all agree to say, "violence against persons doesn't thrill me, either" ?


The Roman military (70 AD, 135 AD) was the only reason it didn't get worse on nascent Christians.

IDK how to diffuse the tensions yet one has to take all things in perspective, considering context, to be "fair & balanced"

LittleLambofJesus said:

What better church father to quote than Saint Paul?
Paul was more familiar with the OT, NT, including Revelation, than than any of the later ECFs

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What???? Revelation, all four Gospels plus a number of epistles were written well after Paul's death.

crossnote said:

Actually the topic revolves around the writings of the Church Fathers...who should have known better than Jewish leaders, Roman soldiers or an 'angry mob of Jews'.

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Why? Any particular reason we need to buy into your moralistic assumptions? We aren't holding up the Church Fathers as the ultimate moral examplars necessarily. Only the Eastern Orthodox equivalents of Fundamentalists do that now days.

crossnote said:

True, but I think in Europe antisemitism has also pretty much been one sided.

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That goes without saying.

You're basically saying "people do bad things and say nasty things", in the end, which to me as a Lutheran is not surprising at all. It's like saying "the grass is green". I'm not sure what the point is. Being a Christian doesn't magically make us people that are above humanity, and that's simply not a realistic expectation to hold in the first place.

What Church? The Catholic or the Orthodox one?

dzheremi said:

Attwater's Eastern Catholic Worship,

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No this was a book put out pretty early like 1926-1928, by the official Vatican Eastern Catholic Church department. I thought the title was something like the "the Rites of the Eastern Catholic Churches" It pretty much is a hands on Liturgical training manual of how to do all the Eastern Catholic rites, all the rubrics etc. Each divine liturgy has its own chapter, documented step by step, in black and white pictures, with notes. The priest and deacons all are in their traditional garb, aka not Latinized, the only thing Latinized in most of the rites was the host.

crossnote said:

I know the Fathers have some good things to say as most Christians do, but this?

Ignatius Bishop of Antioch (98-117A.D.) – Epistle to the Magnesians

For if we are still practicing Judaism, we admit that we have not received God’s favor…it is wrong to talk about Jesus Christ and live like Jews. For Christianity did not believe in Judaism, but Judaism in Christianity.

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This was specifically written against the Sect of the Nazoreans who were completely orthodox believing Jewish Christians but maintained all of their Jewish practices.

Writing circa 300 ad, Eusebius also criticized and condemned them, even though he admitted they believed completely orthodox doctrines, he counted them as heretics for looking and acting like Jews.

THat was US - what we now call Messianic Judaism

dzheremi said:

I've known a few ACOE people (mostly online, only a few in person), but I don't know anything about their churches other than a few strange and random facts about their various divisions, like how the first "Assyrian"/ACOE-descended church set up in the United States was actually Protestant, set up by immigrants from Urmia who had been converted by Presbyterian missionaries working in the area around the turn of the previous century. I don't know when the more 'traditional' Nestorians first started showing up (1950s, maybe? Somewhere in my record collection I have some recordings by HG Toma Bidawid made in 1955 in America, though he was 'Chaldean')...only that once they did, they apparently took over Chicago (and random bits of California, though I haven't seen any around lately).

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My Church was called "The Orthodox Church of the East". It was very, very small. It's orignons came from The Church of England, they became good friends with the ACOE. They started a mission department to try to re-transplant them back in India, because except for Malabar coast, (Trichur, Kerala) it died out from the rest of India. (Usually Tamerlane is responsible for most of that sort of thing, but I'm not sure in this specific case). So you had a few generation of English men trained in the Liturgy of the Holy Apostles Addai and Mari. Those people started consecrating Americans and other folks and pretty soon you have a whole Syriac church line that can't speak it's mother tongue! Boy, did that stump the local Assyrians when we came to visit them this one day!



Yes I have heard of some of the US shenagians and intrigues. While the ACOE is often considered an Oriental Church, its got some weird stuff that is unique to it, I see it as the Duck Billed Platypus of Oriental Churches.

Basically because Patriarchs had a bad habit of being assassinated by the Persian empire, after two centuries of that there was a move to make a more Zoroastorian friendly religion and that meant having things like married bishops and monks etc since the Zoros found celibacy weird and maybe a little unpatriotic. That went on a few centuries, only for them to go back to the main Syriac tradition, but it did set a precedent for future ACOE Protestant converts. Actually one of the big scandals that you may have heard involved a ACOE Patriarch, Mar Shimun who married and got assassinated in San Jose, California in 1975 by his unhappy congregants.