Jesus isn't Catholic

dzheremi

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If i might add to your comment about "original greek".
There is no such thing, as the "original greek".

Yes there is. There is the original Greek phrase from which we get the English term. That's what I mean by "original Greek".

T
his is "scholarshipeze - speak" and has nothing to do with truth or reality.

What on earth are you talking about? Etymology isn't "schoarshipeze-speak", whatever that even means. If you want to conflate being against learning things with being pious, that's on you, but this is a bunch of gibberish.

What we have, as greek texts, are about 30 completed ones, which are all copies of copies of copies, with the occasional very early parchment preserved, usually as a piece or a part.

I'm not talking about Biblical manuscripts. I'm talking about the etymology of particular words.

We have the Dead Sea Scrolls that are accepted by some manuscript evidence experts, but not by all.
So, if you are going to try to sound like an authority on "original extant" texts, on a public forum, you first need to learn that there is no original greek text....

See above.

Also, for the sake of being valid and authentic, its best to write what you have learned, instead of cutting and pasting other's work.

Citing sources is pretty standard practice, because "what you have learned" doesn't really mean anything in itself if it's not based on anything. Anyone can claim to have learned anything. The only thing anyone should care about when you make statements about things that are factually (dis)provable is what you can actually prove by citing relevant sources, as you yourself have already done elsewhere in your reply by talking about extant Biblical manuscripts, even though that's not what I was talking about in the first place.

Anyway, you're clearly intending to have a different conversation here than I am, and I"m going to bow out of yours now, because I care about my time and brain cells. Take care.
 
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timothyu

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No, doctrines according to Paul, who was given them by Jesus, personally, are the revealed inner workings of the body of Christ, (The Church), that order its organization as well as its understanding of the word of God as rightly divided.
Then perhaps the church as an instituition should not dwell upon itself and it's inner workings but upon the Kingdom and it's ideals/inner workings as Jesus suggested. Jesus din't come to form a religion but I understand Paul's need to keep man's self determining nature under control. He did however teach Jesus' Gospel of the Kingdom as noted in at least 3 scriptures but that is often overlooked in favour of another gospel more convenient to the inner workings of the institutional church..
 
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DeepWater

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You're right- He handed down the Jewish religion.

God is in Heaven, and the Jews are in the middle east, at the time of the Old Testament.
So, "handed down the jewish religion".......means what?
Are you saying that God gave them Prophets and Judges and Moses and the 10 commandments and all the rest of the laws, and all this was recorded in and as the Torah?
 
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DeepWater

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Yes there is. There is the original Greek phrase from which we get the English term. That's what I mean by "original Greek".
.

Yes, there are no greek texts that are the original.
Thanks for clearing that up.
And also, , i pointed out that we have some early parchments, pieces, parts, etc... but we have nothing that is the actual epistle that was written by the hand of an actual Apostle.
What we have are the preserved copies, of copies.
 
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DeepWater

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I understand Paul's need to keep man's self determining nature under control. He did however teach Jesus' Gospel of the Kingdom as noted in at least 3 scriptures but that is often overlooked in favour of another gospel more convenient to the inner workings of the institutional church..

Paul said he "Preached the Cross"., but he Taught doctrines and truth concerning what you are talking about.
So, to enter the Kingdom of Light, that you are talking about, you have to be born again.
Its not the preaching of the Kingdom that is the Gospel, but the Gospel is the preaching of the Cross, and once by faith believed, you are entered into the Kingdom you are referring to....and all this is the fact of and the end result of Grace.
Jesus is the Way, the Cross is the means, Salvation is the effect, and the end result is entering into the Kingdom of Light.
Absolutely.
The Kingdom of God is Light....this is truth and holiness and love.
Jesus is the Light of the World.
The Born again, are Children of the Light.
 
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timothyu

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Its not the preaching of the Kingdom that is the Gospel, but the Gospel is the preaching of the Cross,
Ok that is where things get off track. Jesus never taught that. He only gave the good news of the Kingdom. How He brought it about was His business. We were to reject the traditional ways of man for the ways of the Kingdom as shown in all His teachings , and in doing so showing our allegiance to the governance of the Father, not the traditional governance of man. The governance of man including the Temple put Him on that cross. It was the formation of the Kingdom that raised Him. Without the Kingdom He would have had no raison d'etre.
 
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anna ~ grace

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Jesus isn't a Catholic.
Neither is Paul.

Also, think of every denomination you can think of, then add in 2500 more you dont know about.

Jesus and Paul are none of those........also.
Jesus and Paul do not belong to a man made denomination.
But you do, or have.

Its interesting that we are told to "not forsake the assembling of ourselves together"< but we are not told to join a denomination.
There is the concept of a Local Church, revealed in the NT, but its never given a BRAND NAME.
All that came later, as men moved in, took over, and created DENOMINATIONS.
Also...
IF you are born again, you've already joined the "one true Church", which is the literal, spiritual, body of Christ........that is not made with hands., but is made with The Blood of God as Jesus dying on a Cross.

So, is "organized religion", (denominations), the local church, good for you?
It can be great for you, and your family, but, the sticking point, is, that NT doctrine, as "sound doctrine" is always sound, of itself..... but the way it is taught in "church", is often man made reinvention.
= Carnal bible twisting mania.

The only thing the Devil loves more then 5000 denominations that dont agree with each other's theology, (he had a hand in this).....are 380 "New versions" of the BIBLE, that have changed verses, removed "sound" doctrine, and often try to leave God out, whenever possible.
Satan loves this.
LOVES it.

So, how do you know if your church is a mess, and is not walking in the Light, as Jesus is the Light?

It all comes down to how they teach Salvation.
It all comes down to each denomination's personal explanation of GRACE.
Understand Saint, that if they get this wrong, then everything else is wrong, also.
And if you belong to a church that has substituted works for Grace, then you are wrong also., and they did it to you.

So, how do you check all this, to find out if you are in a poisonous religious cult, or if you are in a place where God reigns and the Holy Spirit is active? ???

First, you have to understand that Jesus is Grace. JESUS is Eternal Life. Jesus is Salvation.... Jesus is the author and finishers of YOUR FAITH. Hebrews 12:2. And because Jesus is "Christ in you, the hope of Glory", and you are "IN Christ"", and have become the very "righteousness of Christ", if you are born again.... If you know all this, and believe all this, and TRUST all this and not in yourself to keep yourself saved..
You will also have to come to the truth of the revelation that God began your salvation and HE will finish it.
Philippians 1:6
= You have to come to a place in your theological mastery where you understand GRACE is a free gift, that Salvation is a free gift, and you no longer worry about losing your salvation, or still believe you have to keep yourself saved. (Legalism) (Galatians 1:8)
Saint, you have to come to the revelation, that, if i ask you, "what are you trusting in, to get you to heaven""".... your only and final answer, is "JESUS."
And until you are there, completely certain..... until you have the revelation of "Grace without works"..... Then you will always answer...."well, I trust in Jesus, BUT".........but....but......but.....but".... = Fail.
So, until you come to understand and truly believe that Jesus and Jesus alone saved you and will get you into heaven, then you are lost in the deceitful maze of "who is right"...>"who is lying"...."how do i know", and worst deceit of all..... "you can lose your salvation".

God help you to believe, His Truth, according to His Grace.....alone.




dw
The thing is, if you ask ten different deeply prayerful, intelligent, Scripturally literate Christians to attempt to reconstruct what early, New Testament Christian praxis, worship, and faith would have looked like, sounded like, felt like, and included, based solely on the information provided within the New Testament, you will get ten different models, some of them irreconcilably different from each other.
 
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timothyu

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you will get ten different models, some of them irreconcilably different from each other.
Why is that? Is it because they want scripture to fit their ideals, failing to change to fit scripture? You know, like man using God to justify their actions rather than changing themselves to suit the will of God?
 
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Monk Brendan

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Jesus isn't a Catholic.
Neither is Paul.

Also, think of every denomination you can think of, then add in 2500 more you dont know about.

Jesus and Paul are none of those........also.
Jesus and Paul do not belong to a man made denomination.
But you do, or have.

Its interesting that we are told to "not forsake the assembling of ourselves together"< but we are not told to join a denomination.
There is the concept of a Local Church, revealed in the NT, but its never given a BRAND NAME.
All that came later, as men moved in, took over, and created DENOMINATIONS.
Also...
IF you are born again, you've already joined the "one true Church", which is the literal, spiritual, body of Christ........that is not made with hands., but is made with The Blood of God as Jesus dying on a Cross.

So, is "organized religion", (denominations), the local church, good for you?
It can be great for you, and your family, but, the sticking point, is, that NT doctrine, as "sound doctrine" is always sound, of itself..... but the way it is taught in "church", is often man made reinvention.
= Carnal bible twisting mania.

The only thing the Devil loves more then 5000 denominations that dont agree with each other's theology, (he had a hand in this).....are 380 "New versions" of the BIBLE, that have changed verses, removed "sound" doctrine, and often try to leave God out, whenever possible.
Satan loves this.
LOVES it.

So, how do you know if your church is a mess, and is not walking in the Light, as Jesus is the Light?

It all comes down to how they teach Salvation.
It all comes down to each denomination's personal explanation of GRACE.
Understand Saint, that if they get this wrong, then everything else is wrong, also.
And if you belong to a church that has substituted works for Grace, then you are wrong also., and they did it to you.

So, how do you check all this, to find out if you are in a poisonous religious cult, or if you are in a place where God reigns and the Holy Spirit is active? ???

First, you have to understand that Jesus is Grace. JESUS is Eternal Life. Jesus is Salvation.... Jesus is the author and finishers of YOUR FAITH. Hebrews 12:2. And because Jesus is "Christ in you, the hope of Glory", and you are "IN Christ"", and have become the very "righteousness of Christ", if you are born again.... If you know all this, and believe all this, and TRUST all this and not in yourself to keep yourself saved..
You will also have to come to the truth of the revelation that God began your salvation and HE will finish it.
Philippians 1:6
= You have to come to a place in your theological mastery where you understand GRACE is a free gift, that Salvation is a free gift, and you no longer worry about losing your salvation, or still believe you have to keep yourself saved. (Legalism) (Galatians 1:8)
Saint, you have to come to the revelation, that, if i ask you, "what are you trusting in, to get you to heaven""".... your only and final answer, is "JESUS."
And until you are there, completely certain..... until you have the revelation of "Grace without works"..... Then you will always answer...."well, I trust in Jesus, BUT".........but....but......but.....but".... = Fail.
So, until you come to understand and truly believe that Jesus and Jesus alone saved you and will get you into heaven, then you are lost in the deceitful maze of "who is right"...>"who is lying"...."how do i know", and worst deceit of all..... "you can lose your salvation".

God help you to believe, His Truth, according to His Grace.....alone.




dw
The Church Jesus started and ST. Paul joined is today called the Orthodox Church.
 
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ewq1938

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Jesus isn't protestant, either. He's Jewish.


No, he's Christian and the founder of Christianity and a new covenant that took the place of the old flawed one.
 
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Lost4words

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Jesus was Jewish. He was brought into the Jewish faith / way of life. He practiced as a Jew.

He gave us the Catholic church. The Universal church. A new Covenant. A way to God that was never given before.
 
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grandvizier1006

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In the original Greek sense (not later geographic or 'denominational' senses) of "(believed) throughout the whole Church" (Catholic comes from the phrase kath' holou "on the whole; in general"), yes, Jesus was and is most definitely catholic. He is Who is believed in throughout the whole Christian world, whether in communion with Rome or not.

He was/is also orthodox, meaning "right believing/offering right praise", as demonstrated when He taught us to pray, when He corrected the erroneous interpretations of the Jews and Gentiles around Him ("You have heard it said..., but I say unto you...", etc.), and of course His truly being God in the flesh denies any other possibility or reality.

But in terms of the necessarily later denominational, communal, and/or geographic meanings of these words (including Protestant; I just couldn't think of a way to relate the original definition of Protestant to Christ Himself, as the various Protestant denominations generally do not bother trying to make themselves seem to have direct apostolic lineage to rely on outside of those whose founders had been actual members of the Roman Catholic Church at one point), of course Jesus wasn't any of these, no. Pentecost is often called "the baptism of the Church", as it was when the Church came fully into the world, and that was only in 33 AD, after His ascension into heaven. From there, all the individual apostolic churches were founded within a decade or two of each other, within the first century (e.g., Rome perhaps by the 40s, depending on whose history you believe; Alexandria sometime between 42 and 51 AD, again depending on whose history you believe; Armenia by 30 AD if you believe in the King Abgar V legend, wherein his conversion took place while Jesus was still walking the earth; India in 52 AD with the arrival of St. Thomas; Mesopotamia by the 50s AD thanks to St. Thaddeus and his disciple St. Mari, etc.)
So, in other words, no one group of ancient denominations (Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, etc.) can claim to be "the one true and original church everyone must follow" because there are actually several regional churches? And, perhaps, Jesus doesn't care which one we claim to follow as long as we follow Him?
 
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