the 7 denominations of the book of Revelation

Tone

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Did The “coming of Christ as a thief” befall the first century people at the church of Sardis as Jesus promised them it would?

Revelation 3:3-5
"Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

Ecclesiastes 9:7-8
7"Go, eat your bread with joy, and drink your wine with a cheerful heart, for God has already approved your works: 8“Let your garments always be white, and never spare the oil for your head.”

I would imagine that if we can read it in the original tense, with Hebrew thinking, in the Greek,I could say what I did about Revelation 2:5

I like the tense of this, it gives a better understanding of present implications...letting us know that "the axe is at the root" to whoever is falling away.

And I will answer it in the same way, only substituting "Ephesus" with "Sardis":

yes, those who do not repent from the assembly of Sardis did and will have a "rude awakening", if you will, from Messiah.

And the particular judgement too, of course.





 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Revelation 3:3-5
Ecclesiastes 9:7-8
I would imagine that if we can read it in the original tense, with Hebrew thinking, in the Greek,I could say what I did about Revelation 2:5
How about an Orthodox Jewish version:

Ancient Hebrew Research Center - Home Page

Bible Hub: Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languages

Orthodox Jewish Bible
Eccle 9:
7 Go thy way, eat thy lechem with simchah, and drink thy yayin with a lev tov; for HaElohim now accepteth thy ma'asim. 8 Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no shemen (ointment). 9 Live joyfully with the isha whom thou lovest all the days of thy chayyei hevel, which he hath given thee under the shemesh, all the days of thy hevel; for that is thy chelek in this life, and in thy amal (toil) which thou laborest under the shemesh.

Revelation 3:1 Interlinear:

Revelation 3:
1 And to the malach (angel) of the Kehillah in Sardis, write: These things says the One having the sheva ruchot of Hashem and the shevat hakokhavim (seven stars): I have da'as of your ma'asim, that nominally you are Chai (Alive) but you are [spiritually] niftar (deceased). 2 Be shomer and regarding the things remaining and the things on the point of mavet, be chazakim (strong ones). For, I have not found your ma'asim mitzvot having been shleimim (complete) before Elohai. 3 Therefore, let there be zikaron (remembrance) of what has been handed over to you and what you heard, and be shomer and make teshuva. Therefore, if you are not shomer, I will come as a ganav, and never would you have da'as at what sha'ah (hour, time) I will come upon you. 4 But you have a few shemot (names) in Sardis which did not soil their kaftans. It is they that will walk with me in lavan (white), wearing a kittel, because they are walking worthily. 5 The one who wins the nitzachon (victory), in similar manner, will be clothed in lavan (white), and never will I erase him, the [baal] shem [tov], from the Sefer Chayyim. And I will make hoda'ah (acknowledgement) of the shem of him before Elohim Avi and before the malachim (angels) of Him. 6 The one having an ear let him hear what the Ruach Hakodesh says to the Kehillot.
 
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Jonathan Mathews

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How many “comings of Christ as a thief to hand out rewards and punishment” are prophesied in scripture?

I am aware of only one.
Prophesied here:
1 Thessalonians 5:2,4
2 Peter 3:10
Matthew 24:43-44
Luke 12:39-40
And
Revelation 3:3 & 16:15

Christ came to Ananias and Sapphire in Spirit and KILLED them. This is what Jesus was warning the Church He would do if they did not repent.
 
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frogoon234

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Fair enough.... having several irons in the fire in this thread I misread...I apologize :)

However Christ did indeed promise The first century peoples at Ephesus to “come to thee quickly”.

Did He?
You seemed to indicate you believe He did.

If so, when?

I'm not saying it doesn't say that but where does it say"come to thee quickly". I did a quick search but didn't find it. I often interpret quick as moving quickly but if someone is traveling a long distance even moving at the speed of light could take 2000 years. 2000 light years away takes 2000 years at the speed of light. But anyway where is that verse please?
 
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Tone

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I will not blot out his name out of the book of life

I think what you are addressing @parousia70, may be answered as we consider His words above. Specifically, you ask, "how many times must He come as a thief" (paraphrase) and I think that the word picture that is being painted is that of an unexpected and abrupt death in one's sins...or, more accurately, clothed in soiled garments, which are bad works, opposed to the good works they were to "hold fast" to. How many of those warned in Sardis, died without "Remember[ing]" and are awaiting that hour of judgement. I pray that none who hear this message today find themselves in that same waiting room.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I think what you are addressing @parousia70, may be answered as we consider His words above. Specifically, you ask, "how many times must He come as a thief" (paraphrase) and I think that the word picture that is being painted is that of an unexpected and abrupt death in one's sins...or, more accurately, clothed in soiled garments, which are bad works, opposed to the good works they were to "hold fast" to. How many of those warned in Sardis, died without "Remember[ing]" and are awaiting that hour of judgement. I pray that none who hear this message today find themselves in that same waiting room.
Brings to mind this passage in Luke 12:

YLT)
Luke 12:
13And a certain one said to him, out of the multitude, "Teacher, say to my brother to divide with me the inheritance." 14And he said to him, "Man, who set me a judge or a divider over you?’ 15And he said unto them, ‘Observe, and beware of the covetousness, because not in the abundance of one’s goods is his life.’

16And he spake a simile unto them, saying, ‘Of a certain rich man the field brought forth well; 17and he was reasoning within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have not where I shall gather together my fruits? 18and he said, This I will do, I will take down my storehouses, and greater ones I will build, and I will gather together there all my products and my good things,
19and I will say to my soul, 'Soul, thou hast many good things laid up for many years, be resting, eat, drink, be merry'.
20‘And God said to him, Unthinking one! this night thy soul they shall require from thee, and what things thou didst prepare — to whom shall they be?
21so [is] he who is treasuring up to himself, and is not rich toward God.’
-------------------------------
Why is the Rich-Man in Luke 16:24 calling out to Abraham?

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

Luke 16:
19 Yet a certain man was rich and clothed purple and fine-linen making-merry down to a-day shiningly
20 Yet a certain poor-one was to name Lazarus, who had been cast toward the gate of him, having sores-abiding
21 and yearning to be satisfied from the scraps, those falling<4098> from the table of the Rich-one,
but also the dogs coming licked-upon the sores of him.
22 Became yet to be dying the poor-one and to be carried away him by the messengers into the bosom of Abraham.
Yet died also the rich-one
and was entombed.
25 "But Abraham said, 'Son! remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things;
but now he is comforted and you are tormented
 
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Justified112

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exegetical definition: critical explanation or interpretation of a text, especially of scripture.

Well i couldn't find that word in the Bible so i went to the dictionary. Here goes:

I happen to go to a Independent Fundamental Baptist church and they are known to vary widely (in some cases) between different congregations. I find that many pastors parse words and in this day and age have a very shallow view of what is wrong with America. That being said i view the word denomination as a set of theological views viewed by a set (keyword set) of christians. I happen to find members of a particular congregation (as opposed to denomination) vary widely sometimes in their theological views. I find when people say its wrong to identify yourself as a particular denomination and in some cases they get all i high and might and say things like "i'm not any denomination, i'm christian". I find this trite. Its one thing to say being a christian is what is important (i would agree with that) but its another to say arragantly that its wrong to specify what denomination you affiliate yourself with.

I don't mean to sound mad i was just answering your question. In short i view this issue as just an issue of semantics and conversational tone.
That doesn't answer my question, though. What makes you think that these seven churches represent seven different denominations? What information is contained in Revelation 2 and 3 that gives you this impression?
 
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rockytopva

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That doesn't answer my question, though. What makes you think that these seven churches represent seven different denominations? What information is contained in Revelation 2 and 3 that gives you this impression?
I believe in the seven churches as ages as given in the first few chapters of Revelation...

Ephesus - Apostolic - Could this be the Messianic church? Peter claimed to the the Apostle to the Jews.
Smyrna - Martyr - Early Orthodox formed in this time.
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time

This is not to say Catholic is Thyatiran or Orthodox Pergameon. They just happened to have existed in the particular age. A true ThyatirIan will persecute those who go against her.
 
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Lost4words

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I believe in the seven churches as ages as given in the first few chapters of Revelation...

Ephesus - Apostolic - Could this be the Messianic church? Peter claimed to the the Apostle to the Jews.
Smyrna - Martyr - Early Orthodox formed in this time.
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time

This is not to say Catholic is Thyatiran or Orthodox Pergameon. They just happened to have existed in the particular age. A true ThyatirIan will persecute those who go against her.

Where did you come up with those?
 
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frogoon234

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That doesn't answer my question, though. What makes you think that these seven churches represent seven different denominations? What information is contained in Revelation 2 and 3 that gives you this impression?

I responded to this in another message/post but i'll say it again. A common idea in philosophy and theology is that our theological beliefs can very often have an impact on our fruits or actions. Each of these 7 churches bore different fruits from each other so someone might say they had slightly different theological viewpoints. Please don't say i didn't answer your question this time. Perhaps we can just a agree to disagree.
 
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Justified112

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I responded to this in another message/post but i'll say it again. A common idea in philosophy and theology is that our theological beliefs can very often have an impact on our fruits or actions. Each of these 7 churches bore different fruits from each other so someone might say they had slightly different theological viewpoints. Please don't say i didn't answer your question this time. Perhaps we can just a agree to disagree.
It doesn't appear from the texts that they had different theological viewpoints. Jesus never raises that issue. It appears from the text that they were different in how they responded to persecution, false doctrine and the different challenges they faced.
 
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frogoon234

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It doesn't appear from the texts that they had different theological viewpoints. Jesus never raises that issue. It appears from the text that they were different in how they responded to persecution, false doctrine and the different challenges they faced.
thats fair. but i disagree. I believe the book of Revelation should to some measure be attempted to be understood by historical events considering it is a book about the future going out from the time of John (Patmos John).
 
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parousia70

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Revelation 3:3-5
"Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

Ecclesiastes 9:7-8
7"Go, eat your bread with joy, and drink your wine with a cheerful heart, for God has already approved your works: 8“Let your garments always be white, and never spare the oil for your head.”

I would imagine that if we can read it in the original tense, with Hebrew thinking, in the Greek,I could say what I did about Revelation 2:5



And I will answer it in the same way, only substituting "Ephesus" with "Sardis":



And the particular judgement too, of course.





So ... was that a "yes" or a "no"?

Sorry, I couldn't tell.
 
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parousia70

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I think what you are addressing @parousia70, may be answered as we consider His words above. Specifically, you ask, "how many times must He come as a thief" (paraphrase) and I think that the word picture that is being painted is that of an unexpected and abrupt death in one's sins...or, more accurately, clothed in soiled garments, which are bad works, opposed to the good works they were to "hold fast" to. How many of those warned in Sardis, died without "Remember[ing]" and are awaiting that hour of judgement. I pray that none who hear this message today find themselves in that same waiting room.

So, is it the same thief's coming as these?:
1 Thessalonians 5:2,4
2 Peter 3:10
Matthew 24:43-44
Luke 12:39-40
Revelation 16:15

Are you implying that the above "Thief's coming" narratives also describing a personal, private "unexpected and abrupt death in one's sins" that happens over and over and over to each individual while they await judgment?

Interesting.
 
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parousia70

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I believe in the seven churches as ages as given in the first few chapters of Revelation...

As given?
No, AS GIVEN, they are 7 actual congregations of Living, breathing people in Asia Minor in the 1st century.

What you propose is a later invention and tradition of men added to the text.
Such is taught nowhere in the pages of scripture.
 
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parousia70

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I'm not saying it doesn't say that but where does it say"come to thee quickly". I did a quick search but didn't find it. I often interpret quick as moving quickly but if someone is traveling a long distance even moving at the speed of light could take 2000 years. 2000 light years away takes 2000 years at the speed of light. But anyway where is that verse please?

Revelation 2:5, in Christ's letter to the first century Church at Ephesus.
 
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parousia70

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Christ came to Ananias and Sapphire in Spirit and KILLED them.

Chapter and verse?

This is what Jesus was warning the Church He would do if they did not repent.

I might not be in disagreement with this.

He did promise to come to Thyatira and Kill the Prophetess Jezebel and Her Children, and that the great tribulation would befall all those first-century peoples that fornicated with her.
(Revelation 2:22-23)

I certainly believe He did, and all of that came to pass for them, back then, for our Lord is a Promise Keeper.
 
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Gregory95

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the 7 denominations of the book of Revelation:

I feel people parse words when they say its wrong to belong to a particular denomination. I feel the way the book of Revelation describes the 7 churches is really describing denominations and not separate churches (in philosophical sense). Some major churches in existence now actually have different sects with in these churches that radically are different from other sects. One might be very Augustinian or Calvinist in their beliefs and another might be Arminian (*spelling). Is it really practical to get upset when some one says they are of a certain denomination as though there is not a biblical concept of denominations?

questions and comments?
Are not all true believers to be of one mind?

How do we profess truth to the world when they look at us and say you don't even agree with one another

True believers should rebuke those in error and those in error should happy turn to truth
 
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