Luke 21:24
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Your welcome.
How else would Yahweh gather them together to Jerusalem as shown in Ezekiel 22?
The yearly Passover feast!
Ezekiel 22 and 23 are awesome chapters concerning the pending judgements on Judah and Israel.
EZEKIEL 22 "GATHER HOUSE OF ISRAEL INTO JERUSALEM TO MELT IN FURNACE/GEHENNA"
Ezekiel 22:
1 And there is a word of Yahweh unto me, saying, 2 ‘And thou, son of adam! dost thou judge? dost thou judge the City of blood? then thou hast caused it to know all its abominations,
17 And there is a word of Yahweh unto me, saying, ‘Son of adam!
18 The House of Israel hath been to Me for dross, All of them [are] brass, and tin, and iron, and lead, In the midst of a furnace — dross hath silver been,
19 Therefore, thus says Adonay Yahweh: Because of your all becoming dross, Therefore, behold!
I am gathering you unto the midst of Jerusalem,
20 A gathering of silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, Unto the midst of a furnace — to blow on it fire, to melt it, So do I gather in Mine anger and in My fury, And I have let rest, and have melted you.
21 And I have heaped you up, And blown on you in the fire of My wrath<5678>, And ye have been melted<5413> in its midst.
22 As the melting of silver in the midst of a furnace, So are ye melted in its midst, And ye have known that I, Yahweh, I have poured out My fury<2534> upon you.’
Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon
2534 chemah khay-maw' or (Dan. 11:44) chemaC {khay-maw'}; from 3179;
heat; figuratively, anger, poison (from its fever):--anger, bottles, hot displeasure, furious(-ly, -ry), heat, indignation, poison, rage, wrath(- ful). See 2529.
Revelation 15:1
And I saw another sign in the heaven, great and marvelous.
Seven Messengers having seven stripes/blows, the last, that in them is finished the fury<2372> of the GOD..............
2372. thumos from 2380;
passion (as if breathing hard):--fierceness, indignation, wrath. Compare 5590.
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
The tumult and disorder which ensued upon this event, it is impossible (says Josephus) for language to describe.
The Roman legions made the most horrid outcries ; the rebels, finding themselves exposed to the fury of both fire and sword, screamed dreadfully ; while the unhappy people who were pent up between the enemy and the flames, deplored their situation in the most pitiable complaints. Those on the hill and those in the city seemed mutually to return the groans of each other. Such as were expiring through famine, were revived by this hideous scene, and seemed to acquire new spirits to deplore their misfortunes. The lamentations from the city wore re-echoed from the adjacent mountains, and places beyond Jordan. The flames which enveloped the Temple were so violent and impetuous, that the lofty hill. on which it stood appeared, even front its deep foundations, as one large body of fire.
========================
Eze 23:25
2 “Son of man, there were two women,
The daughters of one mother.
4 Their names: Oholah[fn] the elder and Oholibah[fn] her sister;
They were Mine,And they bore sons and daughters.
As for their names,
Samaria is Oholah, and Jerusalem is Oholibah.
25 I will set My jealousy against you, And they shall deal furiously with you;
They shall remove your nose and your ears, And your remnant shall fall by the sword;
They shall take your sons and your daughters, And your remnant shall be devoured by fire.
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I am saying that Someone is buying unto the babblings and historical claim of the non-Christian Josephus "AS" prophet.
Huh-uh.
It's enough for the careless, but not enough for God who declares that there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. Look at the example of God speaking about His congregation as spiritually Babylon, and note the language of it being "thrown down" like a great millstone and never being found again. Now that's what you would call total destruction that can not be repaired, as was the Old Testament Holy City of Jerusalem and the Temple thereof. It's "obviously" the exact same message of the desolation of the Lord's congregation, not of a physical or literal Great city.
Revelation 18:21
- "And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all."
Of course, you and I can do this dance until the cows come home, but God's word cannot be adulterated. The bottom line is that I didn't say not one stone, Christ said that. Remember that. I am merely faithfully testifying to "exactly" what He declared. By contrast, I can't be accused of taking away from it one single word in any sense, but you can. My point being, God's Word is the authority, not a history book, nor our changing the meaning of it. If you have a problem with the word of accuracy in "not one stone left standing upon another," take it up with the author, God!
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Let read the Scripture:
Matthew 21:40-46 KJV
[40] When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
[41] They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
[42] Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
[43] Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
[44] And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
[45] And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
[46] But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.
I think I already explained Matthew 21 about the vineyard earlier which you can read it.
God is talking about the children of His Kingdom. Not every man within the Kingdom is saved. There are two groups of children in the kingdom. One is a group of chosen people. Another is a group of professed believers. Nothing to do with Genealogy, bloodline, or national heritage. Yes, it was the religious leaders and people deceived by them that were under judgment.
Luke 3:7-9
- "Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
- Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
- And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."
Let that be a lesson to us all, for there, but by the grace of God, go we all. They actually believed that they were doing God a favor by killing Christ. That is the extent of Satan's delusion working in man. As indeed, this false belief of "service to God" will continue.
John 16:2
- "They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service."
Because of this, God takes the kingdom representative from Israel BECAUSE OF THEM, and gave to other husbandmen, the Church where God did allow the Gentiles to take the unfaithful Jews' place in the Covenant Tree Israel! The church continued from Old into the New Testament, but different husbandmen.
That is what those unfaithful and blind Jews thought, but it was God who has destroyed them by taking the kingdom from them. The Romans did not get the kingdom away from Israel by destory their physical temple and city and GAVE the authority to the Church , did they? God already gave the authority to the Church at Pentecost!
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The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
The tumult and disorder which ensued upon this event, it is impossible (says Josephus) for language to describe.
===============
I just now saw this.
Josephus actually uses the same word used in Luke 21:9 concerning the pending 70ad destruction of Jerusalem! "TULMULT"
I will have to do a deeper study on this.........
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matthew 24:6
“Yet ye shall be being about to be hearing battles and hearings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled<2360>, for is binding to becoming,
but not as yet the End<5056>
Mark 13:7
“Yet whenever ye should be hearing battles and hearings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled for is binding to be becoming,
but not as yet the End<5056>
Luke 21:9
“Yet whenever ye should be hearing battles and tumults<181>, no may be being frightened<4422>, for is binding these to be becoming,
but not immediately the End<5056>
================================
Used in only 5 verses of the NT.......3 of those by Paul, traveling companion and physician of Luke, and 1 by James...........
181. akatastasia from 182;
instability, i.e. disorder:--commotion, confusion, tumult.
G181 ἀκαταστασία (akatastasia) occurs 5 times in 5 verses
Luk 21:9
and when ye may hear of wars and uprisings, be not terrified, for it behoveth these things to happen first, but the end is not immediately.'
1Co 14:33
for God is not a God of tumult, but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the saints.
2Co 6:5
in stripes, in imprisonments, in insurrections, in labours, in watchings, in fastings,
2Co 12:20
for I fear lest, having come, not such as I wish I may find you, and I -- I may be found by you such as ye do not wish, lest there be strifes, envyings, wraths, revelries, evil-speakings, whisperings, puffings up, insurrections,
Jas 3:16
for where zeal and rivalry are, there is insurrection and every evil matter;
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Luke 21:9 Commentaries: biblehub
Pulpit Commentary
Verses 9, 10. - Wars and commotions... nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. Josephus the Jewish, and Tacitus the Roman, historian - the former in his 'Jewish Wars,' and the latter in his 'Annals' - describe the period which immediately followed the Crucifixion as full of wars, crimes, violences, earthquakes. "It was a time," says Tacitus, "rich in disasters, horrible with battles, torn with seditions, savage even in peace itself."
======================
Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
9. wars and commotions] The best comment on the primary fulfilment of this Discourse is the Jewish War of Josephus, and the Annals and History of Tacitus (Ann. xii. 38, xv. 22, xvi. 13), whose narrative is full of earthquakes, wars, crimes, violences and pollutions, and who describes the period which he is narrating as one which was “rich in calamities, horrible with battles, rent with seditions, savage even in peace itself.”
The main difficulties of our Lord’s Prophecy vanish when we bear in mind (i) that Prophecy is like a landscape in which time and space are subordinated to eternal relations, and in which events look like hills seen chain behind chain which to the distant spectator appear as one; and (ii) that in the necessarily condensed and varying reports of the Evangelists, sometimes the primary fulfilment (which is shewn most decisively and irrefragably by Luke 21:32 to be the Fall of Jerusalem), sometimes the ultimate fulfilment is predominant. The Fall of Jerusalem was the Close of that Aeon and a symbol of the Final End (telos). This appears most clearly in the report of St Luke.
commotions] akatastasias, conditions of instability and rottenness, the opposite to peace. 1 Corinthians 14:33; James 3:16. Such commotions were the massacre of 20,000 Jews in their fight with the Gentiles at Caesarea; the assassinations or suicides of Nero, Galba, Otho, and Vitellius; the civil wars, &c.
be not terrified] The Greek word is the exact equivalent of our English word ‘be not scared,’ Luke 24:37; 1 Peter 3:6; Proverbs 3:25.
but the end is not by and by] Rather, but not immediately is the end. For ‘by and by’ see Luke 17:7; Matthew 13:21; Mark 6:25. The words are most important as a warning against the same eschatological excitement which St Paul discourages in 2 Thess. (“The end is not yet,” Matthew 24:6; Mark 13:7.) The things which ‘must first come to pass’ before the final end were (1) physical disturbances—which so often synchronise with historic crises, as Niebuhr has observed; (2) persecutions; (3) apostasy; (4) wide evangelisation; (5) universal troubles of war, &c. They were the “beginning of birth-throes” (Matthew 24:8); what the Jews called the “birth-pangs of the Messiah.”
=====================
Bengel's Gnomen
Luke 21:9. Πολέμους, wars) amongst equals.—ἀκαταστασίας, [Engl. Vers. ‘commotions’] seditions) of inferiors against superiors, and intestine divisions, whereby the κατάστασις, established constitution, of states is swept away. These are the preludes of further wars.
It is in this chapter especially that Luke presents to us the words of the Lord in language varied from that in which Matthew and Mark record them: Luke 21:15 [“I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay;” comp. with Mark 13:11, “Take no thought before-hand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate; but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.” Comp. also, Matthew 10:19], 20, etc.[221] So also, instead of wars and rumours of wars in Matthew [Luke 24:6] and Mark [Luke 13:7], Luke says here, wars and seditions.
[221] “When ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.” Comp. with Mark 13:14, “When ye shall see the, abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel, standing where it ought not” (in Matthew 24:15, “stand in the holy place”); the phrases in Mark being altered from their Jewish form by Luke, into one more intelligible to the Gentiles for whom he wrote.—E. and T.
===========================
https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM
CAST OF CHARACTERS: Roman: Emperor Nero | General Vespasian | General Titus | The Roman Army || Jewish: General / Historian Josephus | Factional Leaders in Jerusalem || Administrators of Roman Judea Targets: Jerusalem | Herod's Temple // Maps of the Roman Invasion // Theological Timeline
CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR
Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66
Stage 4: End of Collaborative Government, Priesthood ; General Flight: November 66 - March 67
Part 6: Vespasian Subdues Northern and Western Palestine: December 66 - December 68
Part 7: Three-way Power Struggle within Jerusalem After Roman Retreat: January 68 - May 70
Part 8: Romans Breach City Walls and Leave Jerusalem Desolate: May 10 - September 10, 70
===============
Numerous signs, prodigies, and portents are seen in the land of Judaea at the outset of the rebellion. Included in those recorded by Josephus, armed hosts and chariots in the clouds are seen flying over all the land of Judaea; a light at night makes the temple appear as though it were on fire; Halley's Comet, in the appearance of a sword, flies over the region. NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory says that the closest approach of the comet that year was in March, immediately prior to the revolt.
Christians seem to have associated this period with the warnings and admonitions of Jesus Christ in Matthew 24, because after the withdrawal of Gallus and the Battle of Beth-horon, a great number of people flee the city of Jerusalem, led by the Mother Church, which headed east over the Jordan River to safety in the area of Pella, Jordan. Early Christian settlements sprung up all over the Roman Decapolis Scythopolis [Bet She'an], Hippos [Susieh], Gadara [Umm Qais], Pella [Tabaqat Fahl], Philadelphia [Amman], Gerasa [Jerash], Dion [Adun], Kanatha [Kanawat], Damascus, and Raphana [Abila] . Today this region is within the Kingdom of Jordan and the Golan Heights. During the flight out of Palestine, a number of documents were apparently hidden in the Dead Sea area along the route -- DSS Caves 4 and 7-10 are of particular interest
==============================
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I don't think so. It's more that Someone (using your punctuation) is reading the Bible and comparing it to the historical context of those days. It wasn't only Josephus that wrote about history at the time - and I don't really see what it matters whether he was a follower of Jesus or not (in fact.....maybe it gives him MORE credibility, because he's not trying to fit an agenda - he was just reporting on history).
Are you suggesting that the destruction of the Temple didn't occur in 70 A.D.? Or that there's NO significance whatsoever that it occurred? You don't believe Jesus spoke often on the impending doom coming to the literal city of Jerusalem?
If a non-Christian wrote about the attack of the U.S. twin towers - would you disregard that as not occurring in history, merely because they aren't a Christian? Historical facts are just that - facts. Many historians write about Jesus of Nazareth. They recognize that He was born and crucified by the Romans. They just don't believe He is God or even the Christ (that's where faith and religion comes in).
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You have me confused. I'm not sure what your argument is. Here, you're admitting the connection to the OT city of Jerusalem and the Temple system that's been totally destroyed - never to arise again....but then you say, "not of a physical or literal Great city"?
Are you wishing to make it about PEOPLE being destroyed forever - instead of a city? Is that your argument? They wouldn't be "God's people" if He were destroying them?
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There are very little time/date stamps in the Bible. If it weren't for historians, we wouldn't be able to see how God's promises/predictions have been fulfilled. It's not that the historians, themselves, have "authority" over the Bible (it's in cooperation).....it's that history confirms what God had promised through His prophets. When truth is truth.....there's no threat.TribulationSigns said:
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You seem to be overlooking something important.TribulationSigns said:
I'm giving the credit for this passage to @BABerean2 , because he's posted it many times before in response to arguments like this:
The Holy Spirit at Pentecost
(Genesis 11:1-9; Joel 2:28-32; John 14:15-26; John 16:5-16; Acts 10:44-48; Acts 19:1-7)
1When the day of Pentecost came, the believers were all together in one place. 2Suddenly a sound like a mighty rushing wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw tongues like flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.
5Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6And when this sound rang out, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking his own language.
Peter Preaches to the Crowd
14Then Peter stood up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and addressed the crowd: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and listen carefully to my words. 15These men are not drunk as you suppose. It is only the third hour of the day! 16No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out My Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18Even on My menservants and maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20The sun will be turned to darkness,
and the moon to blood,
before the coming of the great and glorious Day of the Lord.
21And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’b
22Men of Israel, listen to this message: Jesus of Nazareth was a man certified by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs, which God did among you through Him, as you yourselves know. 23He was delivered up by God’s set plan and foreknowledge, and you, by the hands of the lawless, put Him to death by nailing Him to the cross. 24But God raised Him from the dead, releasing Him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for Him to be held in its clutches.
25David says about Him:
‘I saw the Lord always before me;
because He is at my right hand,
I will not be shaken.
26Therefore my heart is glad
and my tongue rejoices;
my body also will dwell in hope,
27because You will not abandon my soul to Hades,
nor will You let Your Holy One see decay.
28You have made known to me the paths of life;
You will fill me with joy in Your presence.’c
29Brothers, I can tell you with confidence that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that He would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31Foreseeing this, David spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that He was not abandoned to Hades, nor did His body see decay. 32God has raised this Jesus to life, to which we are all witnesses.
33Exalted, then, to the right hand of God, He has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34For David did not ascend into heaven, but he himself says:
‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35until I make Your enemies
a footstool for Your feet.”’d
36 Therefore let all Israel know with certainty that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ!”
Three Thousand Believe
37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and asked Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39This promise belongs to you and to your children and to all who are far off, to all whom the Lord our God will call to Himself.”
40With many other words he testified, and he urged them, “Be saved from this corrupt generation.” 41Those who embraced his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to the believers that day.
(Genesis 11:1-9; Joel 2:28-32; John 14:15-26; John 16:5-16; Acts 10:44-48; Acts 19:1-7)
1When the day of Pentecost came, the believers were all together in one place. 2Suddenly a sound like a mighty rushing wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw tongues like flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.
5Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6And when this sound rang out, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking his own language.
Peter Preaches to the Crowd
14Then Peter stood up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and addressed the crowd: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and listen carefully to my words. 15These men are not drunk as you suppose. It is only the third hour of the day! 16No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out My Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18Even on My menservants and maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20The sun will be turned to darkness,
and the moon to blood,
before the coming of the great and glorious Day of the Lord.
21And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’b
22Men of Israel, listen to this message: Jesus of Nazareth was a man certified by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs, which God did among you through Him, as you yourselves know. 23He was delivered up by God’s set plan and foreknowledge, and you, by the hands of the lawless, put Him to death by nailing Him to the cross. 24But God raised Him from the dead, releasing Him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for Him to be held in its clutches.
25David says about Him:
‘I saw the Lord always before me;
because He is at my right hand,
I will not be shaken.
26Therefore my heart is glad
and my tongue rejoices;
my body also will dwell in hope,
27because You will not abandon my soul to Hades,
nor will You let Your Holy One see decay.
28You have made known to me the paths of life;
You will fill me with joy in Your presence.’c
29Brothers, I can tell you with confidence that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that He would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31Foreseeing this, David spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that He was not abandoned to Hades, nor did His body see decay. 32God has raised this Jesus to life, to which we are all witnesses.
33Exalted, then, to the right hand of God, He has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34For David did not ascend into heaven, but he himself says:
‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35until I make Your enemies
a footstool for Your feet.”’d
36 Therefore let all Israel know with certainty that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ!”
Three Thousand Believe
37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and asked Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39This promise belongs to you and to your children and to all who are far off, to all whom the Lord our God will call to Himself.”
40With many other words he testified, and he urged them, “Be saved from this corrupt generation.” 41Those who embraced his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to the believers that day.
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I don't believe we are too far off in what we believe (after reading this - but like I posted earlier - I'm not following your arguments). You seem to be flip-flopping, because now you're talking about Jerusalem falling because of disobedience? I've never said or implied "that's not evidence of anything"? You have been the one dismissing the written historical evidence of the Jewish revolts. I absolutely agree with you on your points about a tree being known for its fruit. You may need to clarify your argument.
I'd express the transfer Jesus spoke about in Matthew to be relevant to the Levitical High Priests to Jesus as the High Priest. You seem to be describing a two peoples of God theology (and overlooking that the early church was comprised of Jewish followers of Jesus). I also believe there was promised vindication for Jesus' death as referred to in Revelation (which is what the OP was asking about - also referred to in Luke 21):
Revelation 1:7 ~ Look! He comes with the clouds of heaven. And everyone will see him— even those who pierced him. And all the nations of the world will mourn for him. Yes! Amen!
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The only history that can prove anything Biblically, is "Biblical History." That is to say, the history of the world as it is written in the Bible alone. Biblical history cannot be proven truth by the writings of the historian Josephus declaring what he believes took place in AD 70. Are we to suppose that God would leave the interpretation of His Holy Word concerning the mountains of flight to Josephus, an unbeliever? We are not to suppose that at all. Holy men of God who declared truth spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost (2nd Peter 1:21), Josephus did not. He was not divinely inspired to write anything, and secular writing (no matter how accurate we may think they are) cannot be looked upon as "proof" of prophecy fulfillment. The Holy Spirit, through God's word proves prophecy.
Moreover, note the context isn't of God telling the Jews to flee to the mountains because the Romans were coming to persecute them. Rather it is that God's servants would be delivered up to be afflicted, and they shall be killed, and shall be hated of "all nations" for Christ's name's sake, and that many shall be offended because of Christ, and shall betray one another, and they shall hate one another. This has nothing to do with the Roman Invasion of Israel. It's a context of enduring in the face of tribulation for the believer, not of fleeing to the physical mountains when the Romans show up. It's a context that many false prophets would arise and would deceive many, and because iniquity shall abound the love of many shall wax cold. What has this to do with Titus and the Roman sacking of Jerusalem? It is a context of he that shall endure this to the end, shall be saved. It's not about the Romans.
Did God tell Paul to flee to the mountains because the wicked were coming to beat him severely. Did God tell John to flee to the mountains because the wicked were coming to throw him into the prison on the isle of Patmos? Did God tell Stephen to flee to the mountains because the people were coming to stone him to death? The only place God tells the church to flee from (collectively) is abomination. And to flee as a bird that flees to the mountains for safety from the snare of the wicked. God is equating the children of God who dwell in this sinful house at this time of trial and tribulation, to (as birds) flee to their spiritual place of safety. "Consider wisely." It is the character of the saints who have their God as their hope, to fly to God's spiritual mountain for security in time of great tribulation. By equating the bird fleeing to the mountain with those souls who trust in God and not physical mountains, temples, church building, the illustration God is painting is clear. It is the only place where we can trust that our souls will be secure from the wicked. Read it again.
Psalms 11:1-2
- "In the LORD put I my trust: how say ye to my soul, Flee as a bird to your mountain?
- For, lo, the wicked bend their bow, they make ready their arrow upon the string, that they may privily shoot at the upright in heart."
- "The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by righteousness."
- "Our soul is escaped as a bird out of the snare of the fowlers: the snare is broken, and we are escaped.
- Our help is in the name of the LORD, who made heaven and earth."
- "Deliver thyself as a roe from the hand of the hunter, and as a bird from the hand of the fowler."
- "And I said, Oh that I had wings like a dove! for then would I fly away, and be at rest.
- Lo, then would I wander far off, and remain in the wilderness. Selah.
- I would hasten my escape from the windy storm and tempest.
- Destroy, O Lord, and divide their tongues: for I have seen violence and strife in the city."
As far as physical punishment, mental tribulation, and death, He told the disciples (and us) to expect it and endure it. God never taught that when we experience persecution, sufferings, or trial because of Christ, we should go hide in the physical mountains. That's not what being a Christian is about, anymore than being a Christian is about not being able to be "physically" hurt by scorpions and serpents. These are all spiritual metaphors for how we shall endure in time of great tribulation. And it's not by fleeing to physical mountains.
2nd Timothy 3:11-14
- "Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
- Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
- But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
- But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;"
In short, history doesn't prove anything about AD 70 and the Jews fleeing to the mountains. It's convenient in lieu of Scripture, but it doesn't prove anything Biblically, neither can it.
Moreover, how is what happened in AD 70 called an abomination in the Holy place of God, when the Jewish Temple was not the Holy Temple of God at that time that it could something in it to qualify as abomination in "The Holy Place." It was neither Holy, nor the place of God in AD 70. When Christ said, "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate," that meant that it's already Desolate and no longer the Holy house of God, no longer the Holy Temple, no longer the beloved city. It could not possible qualify for being a Holy place where abominations stood where it shouldn't or "ought not" stand.
Your point is? Can you show us a verse where God prophesied about World Trade Center being attacked? Then we will go from there.
I said that you got the wrong temple and Jerusalem to begin with.
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Are you wishing to make it about PEOPLE being destroyed forever - instead of a city? Is that your argument? They wouldn't be "God's people" if He were destroying them?[/QUOTE]You have me confused. I'm not sure what your argument is. Here, you're admitting the connection to the OT city of Jerusalem and the Temple system that's been totally destroyed - never to arise again....but then you say, "not of a physical or literal Great city"?
Yeah, I can see that you are confused. Show me what I said connected to the physical city of Jersualem and temple system?
What you don't understand that I was talking about the CONGREGATION (people) of Israel that the Jerusalem and temple were represented of! Do you not understand what Jesus said, "The temple of His Body." that was being destroyed by His people, Jews?
And you also don't understand that God's people are making up of chosen ones and professed believers. The one who is destroying Christ is the people of the said congregation. Yes, it is "God's people" because they are the people of the prince per context. Didn't Peter, a Jew, denied Christ three times before he went to the Cross? But in Christ's grace, he rebuilt His Congregation in three days (including Peter and all of His faithfuls at that time) and send Gospel message to the Gentiles
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You need to try to understand how the whole congregation of Israel (Woman) works, starting with Old Testament and then the New. She, as a city, has two groups of people within her. Please read Revelation 11:1-2. There are two groups of people within the Holy City. One is saved, measured by God. One is not saved and not measured yet part of the city, CORPORATELY just like the Jewish leaders and all who came against Christ.
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How come you put that quote in as if I posted that
......You need to be more careful about your quotes..........
Congrats..........You are now the first member to make my ignore list.........carry on........
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You too?You have me confused. I'm not sure what your argument is. Here, you're admitting the connection to the OT city of Jerusalem and the Temple system that's been totally destroyed - never to arise again....but then you say, "not of a physical or literal Great city"?
Now back to the topic of the OP......
Luke 21:24
According to Revelation 11:2, it would be 42 months.
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Well - if you'd read about history, that may help.
I'll only refer to the Bible just for you, though. It's because Jesus fulfilled the Law that was written. In cleansing the Temple - Jesus was making the claim to be the owner (IOW....He was making the claim of being God). That's what incensed the religious leaders (and exacerbated the power struggle).
Leviticus 14:33–53
33The LORD further spoke to Moses and to Aaron, saying:
34“When you enter the land of Canaan, which I give you for a possession, and I put a mark of leprosy on a house in the land of your possession, 35then the one who owns the house shall come and tell the priest, saying, ‘Something like a mark of leprosy has become visible to me in the house.’ 36“The priest shall then command that they empty the house before the priest goes in to look at the mark, so that everything in the house need not become unclean; and afterward the priest shall go in to look at the house. 37“So he shall look at the mark, and if the mark on the walls of the house has greenish or reddish depressions and appears deeper than the surface, 38then the priest shall come out of the house, to the doorway, and quarantine the house for seven days. 39“The priest shall return on the seventh day and make an inspection. If the mark has indeed spread in the walls of the house, 40then the priest shall order them to tear out the stones with the mark in them and throw them away at an unclean place outside the city. 41“He shall have the house scraped all around inside, and they shall dump the plaster that they scrape off at an unclean place outside the city. 42“Then they shall take other stones and replace those stones, and he shall take other plaster and replaster the house.
43“If, however, the mark breaks out again in the house after he has torn out the stones and scraped the house, and after it has been replastered, 44then the priest shall come in and make an inspection. If he sees that the mark has indeed spread in the house, it is a malignant mark in the house; it is unclean. 45“He shall therefore tear down the house, its stones, and its timbers, and all the plaster of the house, and he shall take them outside the city to an unclean place. 46“Moreover, whoever goes into the house during the time that he has quarantined it, becomes unclean until evening. 47“Likewise, whoever lies down in the house shall wash his clothes, and whoever eats in the house shall wash his clothes.
33The LORD further spoke to Moses and to Aaron, saying:
34“When you enter the land of Canaan, which I give you for a possession, and I put a mark of leprosy on a house in the land of your possession, 35then the one who owns the house shall come and tell the priest, saying, ‘Something like a mark of leprosy has become visible to me in the house.’ 36“The priest shall then command that they empty the house before the priest goes in to look at the mark, so that everything in the house need not become unclean; and afterward the priest shall go in to look at the house. 37“So he shall look at the mark, and if the mark on the walls of the house has greenish or reddish depressions and appears deeper than the surface, 38then the priest shall come out of the house, to the doorway, and quarantine the house for seven days. 39“The priest shall return on the seventh day and make an inspection. If the mark has indeed spread in the walls of the house, 40then the priest shall order them to tear out the stones with the mark in them and throw them away at an unclean place outside the city. 41“He shall have the house scraped all around inside, and they shall dump the plaster that they scrape off at an unclean place outside the city. 42“Then they shall take other stones and replace those stones, and he shall take other plaster and replaster the house.
43“If, however, the mark breaks out again in the house after he has torn out the stones and scraped the house, and after it has been replastered, 44then the priest shall come in and make an inspection. If he sees that the mark has indeed spread in the house, it is a malignant mark in the house; it is unclean. 45“He shall therefore tear down the house, its stones, and its timbers, and all the plaster of the house, and he shall take them outside the city to an unclean place. 46“Moreover, whoever goes into the house during the time that he has quarantined it, becomes unclean until evening. 47“Likewise, whoever lies down in the house shall wash his clothes, and whoever eats in the house shall wash his clothes.
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