Darkness and light and man’s nature

Ken Rank said:

I believe I can make the case that God will prick the heart at some point of ALL of those alive. Some respond, some don't.

Click to expand...

God could do that to every heart, but I would have said that the difference between those who do and those who don't is their nature. Otherwise, it would seem that you think a person has no nature. That would mean a person's choices are unpredictable, even beyond being chaotic, but actually having a randomness to it, going one way and then another, with no pattern. It would not even have a cause that God could see (which I find troubling), otherwise, there would be a definite nature to the person, the underlying cause or battery of causes that give rise to tendencies or patterns of behavior.

...and I believe Yeshua died for ALL PEOPLE, hence John 3:16 and others like it.

Click to expand...

In most cases, then, you believe that Jesus died for nothing (he provides an opportunity, with no real change in outcome). The view that you oppose may paint a picture of God that is colder and harsher, but you have to admit that your view paints God as one who fails more often than not.

Those that do, become His... those that don't, don't.

Click to expand...

Right, but the question was always what makes the difference between those that do and those that don't.

I'm not really sure how your post addressed the issue, either. You restated the premise of the problem, that some people genuinely accept Christ and some don't. You also state that God reaches out to everyone in a fair and unbiased manner. None of that addresses why one person has a different outcome than another, with all contributing factors being equal. Knowing your position on the matter, I would say that you believe that God does not change the nature of a person to be drawn to Christ, especially since that would make the field uneven. That leaves only the human nature.

But the human nature is naturally drawn to the darkness. If God treats all people equally, then some people would need to be drawn naturally to the light of Christ, by their own nature, and that would make some naturally already good people by nature, even apart from the work of Christ, while others are naturally worse than the rest of us. That brings us back to merit, something we could boast about.

I would maintain that this issue has no answer, and it has no answer because it is somewhat of a manufactured crisis. The issue itself is not really dealt with or addressed in Scripture. The passages that are alleged to deal with this issue do not in fact deal with the issue at all (their actual contexts, and thus their actual meanings, were lost on the Reformers and are still lost on their contemporary theological heirs).

The issue is a non-issue, and alien to divine revelation and the historic Christian faith in general.

Human nature is human nature is human nature. There are not different kinds of human nature. There is no such thing as "fallen human nature" nor "regenerate human nature". There is simply human nature. The nature itself is the same for every human being ever to live.

The idea that there is more than one kind of human nature is christologically problematic. If we sin because we have one kind of human nature which is inclined to sin - just as fish nature makes a fish inclined to remain in the water and breathe through gills - and Christ has one kind of human nature which is not inclined toward sin, then we are left with a situation in which there is functionally no Incarnation. If we are one kind of creature with a particular kind of nature, and the Logos took on a nature which was different from ours, then Christ did not become what we are. Either we are human and He is something else, or He is human and we are something else. Either way, it makes it so that He became man in a way that we are not, and thus there is no Incarnation, no Gospel, and no salvation.

Hammster said:

Then you’ll have to conclude that some folks are just better than others.

Click to expand...

By our wills, with the help of grace, we determine our future worth, whether or not we'll fulfill our God-given potential. Otherwise you have to conclude that God created some people for no other purpose that to be tormented eternally. Nice Guy. Here are some of the better teachings I've seen on this matter:

MAN'S FREEDOM
1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be 'left in the hand of his own counsel,' so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him."26
Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.27

I. FREEDOM AND RESPONSIBILITY

1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one's own responsibility. By free will one shapes one's own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil, and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.

1733 The more one does what is good, the freer one becomes. There is no true freedom except in the service of what is good and just. The choice to disobey and do evil is an abuse of freedom and leads to "the slavery of sin."28

Hammster said:

Wow. You just completely eliminated one person of the Godhead.

Click to expand...

No, those teachings only have the purpose of emphasizing man's role in the equation, which is critical. Remove that role and the gospel is gutted of its entire meaning. Man simply does not have to say "yes" to God.

Knee V said:

There is simply human nature. The nature itself is the same for every human being ever to live.

Click to expand...

I would agree, only, I don't believe we may include Adam and Eve (pre-fall); our "nature itself" has been an unnature ever since. But, as far as what is responsible for our salvation (choice/sovereignty), I can see what you are saying and I believe it may be answered more basically, by recognizing Who gives us the breath of life to begin with, apart from which, no choices...or anything for that matter, will be accomplished by man. So, of course our salvation is His work in us through and through.

I will definitely agree that something happened to us after our first parents sinned. I cannot, however, agree with others that our human nature itself became some other kind of nature afterwards.

Tone said:

I would agree, only, I don't believe we may include Adam and Eve (pre-fall); our "nature itself" has been an unnature ever since. But, as far as what is responsible for our salvation (choice/sovereignty), I can see what you are saying and I believe it may be answered more basically, by recognizing Who gives us the breath of life to begin with, apart from which, no choices...or anything for that matter, will be accomplished by man. So, of course our salvation is His work in us through and through.

Click to expand...

Knee V said:

I will definitely agree that something happened to us after our first parents sinned. I cannot, however, agree with others that our human nature itself became some other kind of nature afterwards.

Click to expand...

Well, the Messiah is the light that came into the world, so, His nature was a truly human nature, filled and basking in the Holy Energy of Yah...like a photosynthesizing tree. We, on the other hand, were conceived in darkness and born into a dark world...like a lowly seed, full of potential, yet powerless to provide the necessary conditions that would propel us towards that light....Of, course, different seeds are scattered in various places and under various conditions.

Good Day, Hammster

Here is my attempt... from a older thread that did not get much action.



Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God."

They love darkness and do so (loved) because of their deeds. They hate light and do not come to the light the hate drives them back to their true love. Those who come to light clearly show the work of God.

People will always choose that which they love as it represents their strongest desire and does so freely. They can do no other.

So then how does a lover of the darkness, come to hate the darkness (that they love) and love the light (that they hate).

Why would they do such a thing, what is the cause of this type of radical change?

We see that believers are now light, but at one time were darkness (Not in darkness), but described as darkness itself.

To what do you contribute the total radical change of your very being to?

Eph 5:8 for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light.


In Him,
Bill

fhansen said:

By our wills, with the help of grace, we determine our future worth, whether or not we'll fulfill our God-given potential. Otherwise you have to conclude that God created some people for no other purpose that to be tormented eternally. Nice Guy. Here are some of the better teachings I've seen on this matter:

MAN'S FREEDOM
1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be 'left in the hand of his own counsel,' so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him."26
Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.27

I. FREEDOM AND RESPONSIBILITY

1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one's own responsibility. By free will one shapes one's own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil, and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.

1733 The more one does what is good, the freer one becomes. There is no true freedom except in the service of what is good and just. The choice to disobey and do evil is an abuse of freedom and leads to "the slavery of sin."28

Click to expand...

Sooo thankful that I was spared the RCC... There by the Grace of God.

Hammster said:

If the discussion is sanctification, then maybe. If it’s new birth and justification, then it’s bordering on heresy.

Click to expand...

Hmm, that's a bit amusing to me due to the position I've arrived at on your particular theology (tulips have lost their attraction to put it mildly) but I'll add another teaching that should serve to balance out the equation a little better, not totally, however, for a strict determinist. Once we've established the innate, created beauty and dignity of man, with the freedom he's been given, whether or not he lives up to it, we can proceed to see how he may achieve and even increase it with the help of grace. We have to understand that through history, from Eden on, God has been patiently working with humanity to draw and stretch us into rectitude, into righteousness/justice, without force. Otherwise all of creation and subsequent human history in light of Scripture makes little sense.

1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" and through Baptism:34

But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.35

1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39

In Catholic theology, justification and sanctification are inseparable. Now this next teaching is important because it affirms the role of man's will, no matter how small, in the initial act of justification:

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42

Hammster said:

I know you have. You just cannot explain why.

Click to expand...

Again, sigh. There is no explanation and again with the sophomoric shots. Some choose God, some don't... it's just the way it is. We see this throughout our lives... it is a fact of life throughout history. WHY? Don't know... He knows... ask Him!

Knee V said:

I will definitely agree that something happened to us after our first parents sinned. I cannot, however, agree with others that our human nature itself became some other kind of nature afterwards.

Click to expand...

Adam chose to sin before he fell... we tend to miss that. Therefore, you're correct... our nature didn't necessarily change because it had to have the ability for Adam to sin while in what we assume is a perfect state.

When we return to the state Adam was in before the fall there will be one difference. The law will be written on our mind and hearts. Then, we can't do what Adam did when in that same state... we will have lost that ability.

hey Ham.. made me laugh. Well in like duh. When Christ was talking to them "you being evil know how to give good gifts to your children..." Yet now Christ came died rose PRAISE GOD GLORY TO JESUS! Christs death was more then just "take away the sins of the world".

But "mans nature". God made Adam..Adam falls then what happens? Sin nature..comes from Satan. Its his world all in it suffer from what he is. This virus so to speak.. takes over. I can see why some would tie it to man but theres light and darkness. Play with darkness you become what it is. This "nature" is what we are born into. But something happens when one believes in JESUS! All things become new.. we put on the NEW man.. so forth so on.

Blade said:

But "mans nature". God made Adam..Adam falls then what happens? Sin nature..comes from Satan.

Click to expand...

Save for one thing... Adam made the decision to rebel against God BEFORE he fell. He still in a perfect state when he arrived at the decision to partake with Eve. So which came first? How can we say he developed a sin nature after he sinned when he made the decision in his heart to sin before he took part in the physical act?

Ken Rank said:

Again, sigh. There is no explanation and again with the sophomoric shots. Some choose God, some don't... it's just the way it is. We see this throughout our lives... it is a fact of life throughout history. WHY? Don't know... He knows... ask Him!

Click to expand...

Good day, Ken

I believe scripture answers this those given to the Son by the Father come.

Not given no coming.

In Him,

Bill

BBAS 64 said:

Sooo thankful that I was spared the RCC... There by the Grace of God.

Click to expand...

Methinks you may've been influenced by the "grace" of a different JC. Either way, historically, in the eastern and western church, the will of man has never been excluded from playing a role in his salvation. Anything else is a quite novel idea. Man cannot move himself towards God, and yet man can remain unmoved in the face of grace, or move back away again anytime after once turning to Him.