Christians, your feelings about non-Christians on CF?

Tony Bristow-Stagg

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@Tony Bristow-Stagg , I had a couple of question regarding your beliefs on Manifestations:
(1) Can a person BECOME a Manifestation? There is the famous scene where a dove descends on Jesus when he is baptized. Buddha goes through a process before he becomes enlightened. Moses saw the burning bush. Etc.
(2) Can there be more than one Manifestation SIMULTANEOUSLY?

Thanks cloudyday2.

1) I personally see that Christ explained this in the biblical story of the Virgin Birth. A Manifestation is born of the Holy Spirit , we are born of the Human Spirit. They are chosen of God and are preexisting. We need Faith in Christ to be born again from our human condition into our spiritual reality.

2) That is best answered by the thought that God doeth as He willeth. In the Bible it says Elijah always comes first and prepares the way. As such it is possible that Elijah could also be the same station of the one they prepare the way for. If we read the guidance the bible offered, It would be up to us to be that judge and be aware of what is a false and true prophet.

Regards Tony
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Seems to be, would be correct way to consider it. If one considers that as a valid argument, one would just be using the same evidence that the Jews would use against Christains, it is the same as saying that the Christains mislead the Jews.



Both Faiths teach acceptance of Christ and I also see they teach acceptance of the Word of God. The waters are somewhat muddied in the interpretaion of the Quran, but to a Baha'i faith in Jesus as the Christ is immovable.

Luckily the judge for ones heart, is God and we do not have the right to judge another's heart. Christ tells where to look and Christ mentions good fruit, from good trees.



There was one Jesus with a Message of the One God. As believers in Christ, we are one and Christ said the Name will also be One, but Christ did say it will be a new name. The Jews can also argue a common theology, has it served them with wisdom?



A Christain accepts the Old Testament, it became part of faith in Christ.

The question then is, do Christains follow all the laws and practices and all Jewish Theology of the Old Testement?

If not, as one can see, it is not a valid argument, as it has also been used in the past against Christains.



That the events in Jesus life, as the Christ, are seen with a different frame of reference, this in turn does not diminish their importance or beauty.

The Christains will have this same comparison with the Old Testament. A Christain would see a fulfillment of the Old Testement and as such see they have a great love for it, that a Jew is just yet to accept.

Thus again an argument that is on shaking foundations.

It may be best if we share our love for Christ and put theology aside, Baha'u'llah offered;

"Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.
We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified......"

Regards Tony

As a Bahai, i know it's hard for you to speak with clarity. You prefer to give ambiguous answers and avoid difficult questions or conclusions to those questions. So I will ask, with all these words, are you actually attempting to argue that there is no substantive difference between Bahai and Christianity?
 
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Tony Bristow-Stagg

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So I will ask, with all these words, are you actually attempting to argue that there is no substantive difference between Bahai and Christianity?

I would say any differences that may arise, would not be of Jesus the Christ, nor of Baha'u'llah.

I am happy for you to see it how you have chosen. Personally I can always work hand in hand with a fellow Lover of Christ and in turn we can work together serving all others.

Regards Tony
 
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Tony Bristow-Stagg

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. You prefer to ambiguous and avoid difficult questions or conclusions to those questions.

Another great meditation with this thought is that Christ with many questions, gave answers in metaphor and parables.

It could be said that Christ was avoiding difficult questions, or was the answer aimed at imparting a deeper truth, a truth that the receiver would require more thought to find?

Why do you think Christ did this?

Regards Tony
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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I would say any differences that may arise, would not be of Jesus the Christ, nor of Baha'u'llah.

I am happy for you to see it how you have chosen. Personally I can always work hand in hand with a fellow Lover of Christ and in turn we can work together serving all others.

Regards Tony


Avoiding the question is not an answer. Your previous posts have attempt to make Chrisitanity and Bahai seem as if they have no points of contradiction. That Bahai understand things exactly as Christians do and have the same profound love for Jesus, yet they clearly don't and you know it.

Misleading others is a sin.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Another great meditation with this thought is that Christ gave many questions and answers in metaphor and parables.

Why do you think Christ did this?

It could be said that Christ was avoiding difficult questions, or was the answer aimed at imparting a deeper truth, a truth that the receiver would require more thought to find?

Regards Tony

You aren't Jesus.
 
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Tony Bristow-Stagg

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Avoiding the question is not an answer. Your previous posts have attempt to make Chrisitanity and Bahai seem as if they have no points of contradiction. That Bahai understand things exactly as Christians do and have the same profound love for Jesus, yet they clearly don't and you know it.

Misleading others is a sin.

You aren't Jesus.

Jesus the Christ gave good advice to followers, I will take that advice and you can to as well if you choose.:)

Matthew 10:14 "If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet."

Regards Tony
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Jesus the Christ gave good advice to followers, I will take that advice and you can to as well if you choose.:)

Matthew 10:14 "If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet."

Regards Tony

Except I've listened to your words and simply called you out. You have no justification for saying Christianity and Bahai are the same. You know they aren't and hence you avoid even noticing the contradictions for the purposes of making your Bahai faith look profoundly tolerant and insightful.

It's misleading, it isn't preaching an Apostolic truth which is rejected for no good reason. I have plenty of reason to reject what your saying since there's no justification for what you're saying in the first place.

You won't even admit that Bahais and Christians have different views on the resurrection, the essential part of the Gospel Christians insist upon.
 
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Tony Bristow-Stagg

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Except I've listened to your words and simply called you out. You have no justification for saying Christianity and Bahai are the same. You know they aren't and hence you avoid even noticing the contradictions for the purposes of making your Bahai faith look profoundly tolerant and insightful.

It's misleading, it isn't preaching an Apostolic truth which is rejected for no good reason. I have plenty of reason to reject what your saying since there's no justification for what you're saying in the first place.

You won't even admit that Bahais and Christians have different views on the resurrection, the essential part of the Gospel Christians insist upon.

One could also spend a lifetime talking about the essential part of the Tanakh that the Jews assist upon and Christains have said apply to Christ. Have we not learned the fruitless waste of time that is?

I wish you well and happy in life.

Regards Tony
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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One could also spend a lifetime talking about the essential part of the Tanakh that the Jews assist upon and Christains have said apply to Christ. Have we not learned the fruitless waste of time that is?

I wish you well and happy in life.

Regards Tony
What does this response mean? It doesn't prove Bahai and Christianity are exactly the same. It doesn't do away with the essential doctrines we disagree entirely on. Why do you continue to ignore this point and address irrelevant ideas?
 
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cloudyday2

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In the Bible it says Elijah always comes first and prepares the way.
It seems that some of the religious innovators who some might see as Manifestations did not have any obvious person preparing the way. Jesus had John the Baptist. Baha'u'llah had the Bab (I assume the Bab is seen as preparing the way). Elisha in the OT had Elijah (and some early Christians saw Elisha as foreshadowing Jesus). But what about other possible Manifestations such as Muhammad, Moses, Buddha?
 
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RichardY

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@Tony Bristow-Stagg , I had a couple of question regarding your beliefs on Manifestations:
(1) Can a person BECOME a Manifestation? There is the famous scene where a dove descends on Jesus when he is baptized. Buddha goes through a process before he becomes enlightened. Moses saw the burning bush. Etc.
(2) Can there be more than one Manifestation SIMULTANEOUSLY?

1) I think Mormons are TransTheists, becoming equal to God the Father and Son. Similar to Jainism, the darkside. Looking into Christianity a bit more recently I'm more partial to Eastern Orthodox (Theosis) or Divination(Becoming Godlike). Than western Scholasticism.

2) I would say that it is essential, for a transcendent reality, that continually affects creation. I think Jevovah witnesses believe in independent dieties, "God the Father" and "the Son" as distinct entities, which are part of the Godhead(Holy Spirit). I'm no Theologian by any means.
 
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cloudyday2

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@Ignatius the Kiwi , it seems that you disagree with the Baha'i religion's desire to include Christianity under its umbrella? This attitude seems to mirror the combative, polemical attitude of many CF members towards Mormons. Probably the concern is that these religions might trick some uninformed Christians into leaving the "true" faith?

In my opinion, Christians should be more concerned about atheism than competing religions.

It seems that many Christians feel that going to a different form of theism is a greater rejection than going to atheism. I suppose an analogy would be divorcing your wife and remarrying versus divorcing your wife and deciding that you are sick and tired of women.

I'm just making some random observations and no criticism of anybody is intended.
 
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Rajni

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As a Bahai, i know it's hard for you to speak with clarity.
M'kay, let's put the broad brush down and back away
from it real slow-like. :D

You aren't Jesus.
Doesn't mean he can't be Christlike.
I thought that was one of the goals in Christianity.
(He's doing a good job of that, by the way. I'm very
impressed).

You won't even admit that Bahais and Christians have different views on the resurrection, the essential part of the Gospel Christians insist upon.
There are Christians who won't admit that Christians and
Christians have different views on many aspects of their
own religion. Nothing new to see, here, really.

It doesn't prove Bahai and Christianity are exactly the same.
I'm not sure one would necessarily want to prove their religion
is the same as Christianity, as there's a chance it could scare
some folks away from their religion.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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@Ignatius the Kiwi , it seems that you disagree with the Baha'i religion's desire to include Christianity under its umbrella? This attitude seems to mirror the combative, polemical attitude of many CF members towards Mormons. Probably the concern is that these religions might trick some uninformed Christians into leaving the "true" faith?

In my opinion, Christians should be more concerned about atheism than competing religions.

It seems that many Christians feel that going to a different form of theism is a greater rejection than going to atheism. I suppose an analogy would be divorcing your wife and remarrying versus divorcing your wife and deciding that you are sick and tired of women.

I'm just making some random observations and no criticism of anybody is intended.

The only concern is that it is disingenuous to imply Bahai and Christianity are more or less the same with little differences. Oh we both believe in Jesus. We both believe in God. Oh we both believe the resurrection.

It's insincere and just wrong. I have no fear of Christians going to Bahai because it's such a marginal religion that it doesn't even register when we talk about world religions, though it presents itself as such.
 
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Tony Bristow-Stagg

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What does this response mean? It doesn't prove Bahai and Christianity are exactly the same. It doesn't do away with the essential doctrines we disagree entirely on. Why do you continue to ignore this point and address irrelevant ideas?

The point is, you as a Christain will live the virtues, you will serve all humanity and you will turn the other cheek. As a Baha'i I will do the same.

I look forward to working with you in our shared Love for God.

Thus what is the point of debate we have?

Regards Tony
 
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Tony Bristow-Stagg

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It seems that some of the religious innovators who some might see as Manifestations did not have any obvious person preparing the way. Jesus had John the Baptist. Baha'u'llah had the Bab (I assume the Bab is seen as preparing the way). Elisha in the OT had Elijah (and some early Christians saw Elisha as foreshadowing Jesus). But what about other possible Manifestations such as Muhammad, Moses, Buddha?

Well picked up. I have always said that is something I would have to research but have not done so to date. Yes the Bab was the Elijah for Baha'u'llah. Interestingly there were also two forerunners to the Bab as well, preparing Persia for the Twin Manifestations.

I am confident all Messengers had their Elijah, but I have not done the study, might be about time, as I knew the question would come, well done it shows a good sense of justice in search. :)

Regards Tony
 
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Albion

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@Ignatius the Kiwi , it seems that you disagree with the Baha'i religion's desire to include Christianity under its umbrella? This attitude seems to mirror the combative, polemical attitude of many CF members towards Mormons. Probably the concern is that these religions might trick some uninformed Christians into leaving the "true" faith?

In my opinion, Christians should be more concerned about atheism than competing religions.
Maybe. However, there isn't a lot of anguish over the possibility that some Christian will up and convert to Hinduism or some other faith like that one following an investigation into its tenets.

Its a different matter, though, when the other faith tries to seduce Christians with the claim that what that other faith believes is quite compatible with Christianity.

For all the surface similarities in belief or practice that can be pointed out, there cannot be such compatibility absent the one most important and non-negotiable belief of Christianity--that Christ is God incarnate and there is no other.
 
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Tony Bristow-Stagg

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For all the surface similarities in belief or practice that can be pointed out, there cannot be such compatibility absent the one most important and non-negotiable belief of Christianity--that Christ is God incarnate and there is no other.

The good thing is that we all get to read the same Bible and we can all draw our own conclusions. No matter what conclusion we do make, it should not cause division.

Thus I offer the post above;

The point is, you as a Christain will live the virtues, you will serve all humanity and you will turn the other cheek. As a Baha'i I will do the same.

I look forward to working with you in our shared Love for God.

Thus what is the point of debate we have?

Regards Tony

Regards Tony
 
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Albion

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The good thing is that we all get to read the same Bible and we can all draw our own conclusions. No matter what conclusion we do make, it should not cause division.
Certainly I agree if you are saying that being of different faiths shouldn't mean that we must be locked in combat with each other.
 
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