Why did Jesus have to Ascend for the Holy Spirit to Come?

sdowney717 · Feb 14, 2015

AnticipateHisComing said:
These are certainly true observations of what happened after Pentecost. It does not answer my question of why the Holy Spirit could not be poured out before Jesus ascended to heaven. Can't the Holy Spirit that proceeds from the Father deliver a message without Jesus being in heaven?

Jesus is thought to not have baptized any with water. Jesus is said to baptize with the Holy Spirit, but this did not happen until he was in heaven. Why could this not happen while he was preaching on earth of the new covenant? Why couldn't the Holy Spirit be poured out while Jesus was on earth?

Maybe the fact that the Son of God is mediator is also part of the answer.

Jesus was not yet glorified, so the Spirit was not yet given.

John 7:39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

And

John 17

Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should[a] give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

So until Christ goes back to the Father in full glorification, the Spirit will not be poured out.
The glory was to be like that they had together before the creation, but until Christ goes back, He is not glorified, that is given all authority both on earth, and in heaven. Here in John 17, Christ has authority over all flesh.

but we see Christ having the authority also in heaven only after His resurrection
Matt 28

18
And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Since the Holy Spirit promise of His coming was given to us by Christ, then Christ would be the one to fulfil that promise after being given that authority by the Father in heaven.

Messy · Feb 14, 2015

Gottservant said:
Jesus went to Hell (NT)

The Holy Spirit will bring all things to remembrance (gospel of John)

Therefore the Holy Spirit went to Hell, when Jesus did (inspiration of the Holy Spirit - spoken of in the NT letters I think).

How else can you bring all things to remembrance, unless you have actually been there?

He preached in hell, but the Holy Spirit was poured out not after He was raised but after He went to heaven. They died and rose again with Him and He could breathe the Holy Spirit on them. I think because first His Body was Where God was manifest and now we're His Body on earth. If He didn't go to heaven He couldn't live in us. He Said I send another Comforter and then That He and His Father would live in us.

Vollbracht · Feb 14, 2015

The Kingdom of God is not in Word, but in Power. The firsborn from the dead is the firstfruits to God, delivering to God what was given to Jesus Christ to keep in His Name. Had the Spirit been poured out before this, Satan would have won (Mt. 4:8-9).

MoreCoffee · Feb 14, 2015

There's some strange theology afoot ...

There is an answer to the original post's question in the verse that was quoted in the OP.

But I tell you the truth, it is better for you that I go. For if I do not go, the Advocate will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you.

It appears that the Lord is stating a contingency upon which the sending of the Holy Spirit depends; namely, that the Lord "go".

ViaCrucis · Feb 14, 2015

Vollbracht said:
The Kingdom of God is not in Word, but in Power. The firsborn from the dead is the firstfruits to God, delivering to God what was given to Jesus Christ to keep in His Name. Had the Spirit been poured out before this, Satan would have won (Mt. 4:8-9).

Perhaps you could clarify?

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · Feb 14, 2015

MoreCoffee said:
There's some strange theology afoot ...

There is an answer to the original post's question in the verse that was quoted in the OP.
But I tell you the truth, it is better for you that I go. For if I do not go, the Advocate will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you.
It appears that the Lord is stating a contingency upon which the sending of the Holy Spirit depends; namely, that the Lord "go".

Which would make sense seeing as the promise of the Holy Spirit is to, in a sense, preserve ongoing Christ's presence. Being "another comforter" who will preserve for the Apostles, and thus for the Church, what Christ had taught them. Even as it pertains to the Eucharist the Church, through the words of the minister of the Gospel, prays the Epiclesis.

-CryptoLutheran

Vollbracht · Feb 14, 2015

ViaCrucis said:
Perhaps you could clarify?

-CryptoLutheran

Hi, ViaCrucis.

Image with image in the face of our Lord Jesus Christ. Jn. 17:19, Heb. 2:11.

That's about as clear as can be shown.

Devorim · Feb 14, 2015

I know that when I answered, I believed I had given the answer. I am sure that when others answered, they believed they had given the answer. Some say it with many words, some with few. Some wax poetic and some just give their answer straight up. We are not all going to a agree. Whuduhyuhdo?

AnticipateHisComing · Feb 14, 2015

It seems that some are content with just knowing history. God did A, B, C, ... according to his plan. The Word spoke at creation. The Word was lowered, taking on flesh, born as Jesus. Jesus died and was resurrected. Jesus then ascended to heaven and returned to his previous glorified state. The Holy Spirit was poured out on earth.

Some acknowledge that the sequence of God's plan for the Church has certain contingencies. That the Holy Spirit being poured out was contingent on Jesus returning to his glorified state in heaven.

I ask, why this contingency? It seems to me to be based on relationships between the Father, the Son of God, the Holy Spirit, angels and the Church. This is the best answer that I can think of to the why question. Looking at some of these relationships helps me with an answer that I posited in the OP.

Jesus is at the right of the Father who sits on the throne.
Jesus is mediator between the Father and men.

Jesus tells the Holy Spirit what to say. The Holy Spirit speaks to, works with power and gifts, and dwells in the souls of the Church. The Holy Spirit works as Advocate to the Church.

Jesus is the head of the Church. So the message that the Church is to hear and the mission for the Church comes from Jesus. Part of the message was spoken by Jesus and recorded in the Bible. Part of the message was delivered through other authors before and after Jesus lived and is recorded in other books of the Bible.

The Son of God heads the angels. Angels are ministering spirits sent to serve the Church. So Jesus directs the angels which battle in the heavenly realm for our souls and our ways.

In this study I am impressed with how far-reaching is the statement that Christ is head of the Church. He is creator, shepherd, teacher, priest, savior and pattern for our resurrection.

I also ask you to think about these relationships and see how they have been in effect throughout the whole time of the Church. While covenants between God and the Church may have changed through history, how God works, changes little through history.

Praise be to God. He is awesome.

AnticipateHisComing · Feb 14, 2015

And here are some key scriptures about the workings of God the Father, God the Son, the Holy Spirit, angels and men.

Hebrews 12:2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

1 Cor 11:3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Colossians 1:18 And He[Christ] is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

Hebrews 1:14 Are they[angels] not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

Galatians 3:19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.

John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.

John 14:26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Gottservant · Feb 15, 2015

No no no (ignore me if you want).

The scripture clearly states that the Spirit descended upon Jesus as a Dove and that Jesus went to Hell.

The only natural conclusion from this, is that the Spirit went to Hell.

This therefore is the reason Jesus had to ascend, that if the Spirit is convicting people in Hell and there is no way out, the Spirit dies (and it is not possible that Jesus should do anything by which the Spirit might die)

Wordkeeper · Feb 15, 2015

AnticipateHisComing said:
I have been puzzled for a while about the verse in John.

John 16:7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

So why did Jesus have to return to heaven in order for the Holy Spirit to be sent?

The only possible idea I have is that it is related to what Jesus says the Holy Spirit speaks.

13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.

John also calls Jesus the Word. Is this a hint that Jesus is the author of scripture? While the Holy Spirit inspires the Bible writers with words to write, John says it is the Son of God that tells the Holy Spirit what to say.

So my guess is that Jesus had to return to his glorified state before the Holy Spirit was "released" on the world for only in his glorified state could the Son of God direct the Holy Spirit.

I am not sure on this but I have no other ideas. Anyone else have an explanation?

Before an inheritance is received, the death of the one who made the will must be certified. Jesus had to present in heaven the blood of the person nailed to the cross as proof that the death had occurred, the reality of the type represented by the high priest when he entered the inner sanctum with the blood of the unblemished lamb in order that the inheritance of the gift of the Holy Spirit might be given to His family.

Hebrews 2:11Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters.

Hebrews 9:16For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established.

Gottservant · Feb 15, 2015

Wordkeeper said:
Before an inheritance is received, the death of the one who made the will must be certified.

The only one who can certify the death of the Saviour is the Holy Spirit.

Wordkeeper · Feb 15, 2015

Gottservant said:
The only one who can certify the death of the Saviour is the Holy Spirit.

Hebrews 9:11But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

peterlindner · Apr 24, 2019

In the kingdom Jesus would drink wine with man again. In the wedding of Cana they expected wine on the 3rd day...it (the pots of time) were full filled a few days later. Resurrection on the 3rd day wasn't the end of the story...there were a few days left of the feast week. The week began on the 14th of Passover month=day 1. The 20th day was also the 7th and final day of the feast week. These parallel feast weeks of unleavened bread and first fruits are the same as Jacob's weeks and the same as Vashti's weeks.

Mark_Sam · Apr 25, 2019

Just like Christ, this thread has been resurrected from the dead!

Why did Jesus have to Ascend for the Holy Spirit to Come?

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