"Call no man on earth 'father' for One is your Father". What's an example?

Jonathan Mathews said:

Jesus says "Call no man on earth father, for One is your Father". (Matthew 23:9)

So then, please give me an example of violating this command of Jesus. What is an example of calling a man on earth father, when Jesus said not to?

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In new testament times it was common to address a senior rabbi as "father". Jesus told his apostles not to address anyone as father as a means of elevating them to their senior positions. With that elevation to positions of seniority, he gave them also the power to "bind and loose" an authority held only by the most senior teachers of Israel.

Paul identified himself, and others, as "father" to the Corinthians:

1Co 4:15 - For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you donot have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

Jesus gave the apostles also the authority to forgive sins and to chrismate new Christians. Those are powers not given to the laity.

Catholic Church calling priests Father. Amusing how "in your face" it is actually. Another example would be Messianic Jews calling teachers/pastors Rabbi.
Acceptable examples of calling someone father would be your actual father or referring to a patriarch as father (for example, "father Abraham"). Father here does not mean a spiritual teacher or anything but simply our patriarch ancestors in the faith.
Rabbi is never acceptable however.

Pretty cut and dry. Always able to justify Christ's teachings away of course. "Original Greek yadda yadda yadda", "he meant do not exalt someone, using the actual words is fine", etc.

Jesus said it he meant it. Leave it to man to add unto his words.

HTacianas said:

In new testament times it was common to address a senior rabbi as "father". Jesus told his apostles not to address anyone as father as a means of elevating them to their senior positions. With that elevation to positions of seniority, he gave them also the power to "bind and loose" an authority held only by the most senior teachers of Israel.

Paul identified himself, and others, as "father" to the Corinthians:

1Co 4:15 - For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you donot have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

Jesus gave the apostles also the authority to forgive sins and to chrismate new Christians. Those are powers not given to the laity.

Click to expand...

Paul was referring to himself as a figurative adoptive father. Not the same thing. Note how he finishes the verse saying how he has "begotten them".

Metaphor for adoption. Not spiritual father or spiritual teacher.

CodyFaith said:

Catholic Church calling priests Father. Amusing how "in your face" it is actually. Another example would be Messianic Jews calling teachers/pastors Rabbi.
Acceptable examples of calling someone father would be your actual father or referring to a patriarch as father (for example, "father Abraham"). Father here does not mean a spiritual teacher or anything but simply our patriarch ancestors in the faith.
Rabbi is never acceptable however.

Pretty cut and dry. Always able to justify Christ's teachings away of course. "Original Greek yadda yadda yadda", "he meant do not exalt someone, using the actual words is fine", etc.

Jesus said it he meant it. Leave it to man to add unto his words.

Click to expand...

Respectfully, no on both. Paul and many other authors in the bible refer to people like Abraham as "father." While I do not like the idea of calling a priest "father," I don't believe that is what it means. And, Rabbi (really, Ravi) means teacher... but the root, rav... means "great one." I think not calling somebody "father" is not calling them the Great One because only one is "Great."

Jonathan Mathews said:

Jesus says "Call no man on earth father, for One is your Father". (Matthew 23:9)

So then, please give me an example of violating this command of Jesus. What is an example of calling a man on earth father, when Jesus said not to?

Click to expand...

The meaning is that you ought not consider anyone on Earth to be equal to or in the place of your Father God. You asked about an example and, frankly, I do not think that I am personally acquainted with anyone who does this, but that isn't to say it never happens. Someone who idolizes science, for example, and considers some scientist to be his mentor or hero in all things dealing with the universe might qualify.

In the Catholic church the priests are called father.

CodyFaith said:

Paul was referring to himself as a figurative adoptive father. Not the same thing. Note how he finishes the verse saying how he has "begotten them".

Metaphor for adoption. Not spiritual father or spiritual teacher.

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Paul was their spiritual father

CodyFaith said:

He was referring to himself as a figurative adoptive father. Not the same thing. Note how he finishes the verse saying how he has "begotten them".

Metaphor for adoption. Not spiritual father or spiritual teacher.

Click to expand...

When someone says "you have not many fathers" we can certainly infer from that that they have "fathers". When it is said in the same paragraph "instructors in Christ" we can infer the meaning "fathers in Christ". When it is also said "I have begotten you" we can infer that Paul is identifying himself as "father" to the Corinthians.

In the alternative, we can posit that all of the original apostolic Churches pored over the gospels looking for some way of needlessly violating some commandment of Christ.

I think the first choice is probably best.

Ken Rank said:

Respectfully, no on both. Paul and many other authors in the bible refer to people like Abraham as "father." While I do not like the idea of calling a priest "father," I don't believe that is what it means. And, Rabbi (really, Ravi) means teacher... but the root, rav... means "great one." I think not calling somebody "father" is not calling them the Great One because only one is "Great."

Click to expand...

Right, but naturally as a Messianic you would have no choice but to believe something like that, because if you didn't you would have to regard Messianicism as a whole as having false teachings. You would not be able to be Messianic and avoid calling someone Rabbi, it would be a socially impossible/unnatural task.

Which means of course there is a better path to following the Law and yet being Christian. But I digress.

Regardless, the word Jesus used refers to master, and the word Rabbi is connected to such a term in God's eyes since nearly all translations we have translate it as such. God does not require man to learn Hebrew and Greek to understand his teachings.

Edit: Just turned my screen and saw you don't identify as Messianic on here but non-denom. In either case you must connect yourself with the movement or it's ideologies as I've seen a lot of posts similar to Messianic posts in the past.

Jonathan Mathews said:

Jesus says "Call no man on earth father, for One is your Father". (Matthew 23:9)

So then, please give me an example of violating this command of Jesus. What is an example of calling a man on earth father, when Jesus said not to?

Click to expand...

In modern terms, it means do not allow any man to have the authority here on Earth as if to represent God. Only Christ, alone is the Teacher, and only God alone is our Father, the One, single Father.

Generally calling a man 'father' in an affectionate way or in a way that is just like 'pastor' -- meant the same way -- is fine.

If the term father is used in a sense one understands there are many fathers, none lifted up high, above us, then it's still fine.

It's when the title becomes more worshiping, like "Holy Father" applied to the pope appears to be, that suddenly we should wonder if His command is being violated.

Because we have one Father, and He is in heaven. Christ bought this for us with His suffering on the cross, that we truly are as Paul wrote like adopted sons and daughters, and God is our Father.

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For reference I consider Catholics generally Christians, and generally right in their doctrines in many ways, and also consider Francis a good bishop, and have learned from his homilies.

HTacianas said:

When someone says "you have not many fathers" we can certainly infer from that that they have "fathers". When it is said in the same paragraph "instructors in Christ" we can infer the meaning "fathers in Christ". When it is also said "I have begotten you" we can infer that Paul is identifying himself as "father" to the Corinthians.

In the alternative, we can posit that all of the original apostolic Churches pored over the gospels looking for some way of needlessly violating some commandment of Christ.

I think the first choice is probably best.

Click to expand...

1 Corinthians 4:15
For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

Paul is saying he is their only metaphorically adoptive father. He taught them and instructed them as if they were his own children. They were new in the faith and he was there for them.

This is not the same as being called "Father". This is completely a metaphor and Paul would have rebuked them for calling him Father, for he knew the only true teacher and mentor was God himself, Paul being a mere human and flawed vessel of God's grace.

And if you won't hear that, have fun with believing whatever suits your desires best.

HTacianas said:

In the alternative, we can posit that all of the original apostolic Churches pored over the gospels looking for some way of needlessly violating some commandment of Christ.

I think the first choice is probably best.

Click to expand...

I would be warned/banned if I gave my true thoughts on that

Truth often isn't as bunny fluffy as some wish.

CodyFaith said:

Right, but naturally as a Messianic you would have no choice but to believe something like that, because if you didn't you would have to regard Messianicism as a whole as having false teachings. You would not be able to be Messianic and avoid calling someone Rabbi, it would be a socially impossible/unnatural task.

Which means of course there is a better path to following the Law and yet being Christian. But I digress.

Regardless, the word Jesus used refers to master, and the word Rabbi is connected to such a term in God's eyes since nearly all translations we have translate it as such. God does not require man to learn Hebrew and Greek to understand his teachings.

Edit: Just turned my screen and saw you don't identify as Messianic on here but non-denom. In either case you must connect yourself with the movement or it's ideologies as I've seen a lot of posts similar to Messianic posts in the past.

Click to expand...

I am a Christian who is open to have his bias shifted WHEN the evidence allows for such. For the last 20 years I have had the privilege of learning linguistics, semiotics, and first century Judean culture off one of the more balanced teachers there has been in a while. My beliefs have shifted over time... and will continue to as evidence supports the need to shift. That means, I am not the ostrich sticking my head in a hole you think I am. But thanks for being so fair minded.

HTacianas said:

In new testament times it was common to address a senior rabbi as "father". Jesus told his apostles not to address anyone as father as a means of elevating them to their senior positions. With that elevation to positions of seniority, he gave them also the power to "bind and loose" an authority held only by the most senior teachers of Israel.

Paul identified himself, and others, as "father" to the Corinthians:

1Co 4:15 - For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you donot have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

Jesus gave the apostles also the authority to forgive sins and to chrismate new Christians. Those are powers not given to the laity.

Click to expand...

I could be wrong, but I believe the Roman Catholic Bible omits this verse, and a few others as well. I have called Anglican, and Catholic Priest Father, It never felt wrong to me, maybe I should reassess!

Ken Rank said:

I am a Christian who is open to have his bias shifted WHEN the evidence allows for such. For the last 20 years I have had the privilege of learning linguistics, semiotics, and first century Judean culture off one of the more balanced teachers there has been in a while. My beliefs have shifted over time... and will continue to as evidence supports the need to shift. That means, I am not the ostrich sticking my head in a hole you think I am. But thanks for being so fair minded.

Click to expand...

What type of evidence?

My second last paragraph you quoted is evidence. Wisdom is evidence.

Seems the only evidence that can come about is if someone has Dr. in their name and they speak.
But such is the system haha. Such is the Church's current state.

In context, Jesus seems to be condemning bragging about being a disciples of a specific Rabbi.

CodyFaith said:

Catholic Church calling priests Father. Amusing how "in your face" it is actually. Another example would be Messianic Jews calling teachers/pastors Rabbi.
Acceptable examples of calling someone father would be your actual father or referring to a patriarch as father (for example, "father Abraham"). Father here does not mean a spiritual teacher or anything but simply our patriarch ancestors in the faith.
Rabbi is never acceptable however.

Pretty cut and dry. Always able to justify Christ's teachings away of course. "Original Greek yadda yadda yadda", "he meant do not exalt someone, using the actual words is fine", etc.

Jesus said it he meant it. Leave it to man to add unto his words.

Click to expand...

(1) Jesus said it that settles it

(2) It is acceptable to call your father, father

Pick one.

Rubiks said:

(1) Jesus said it that settles it

(2) It is acceptable to call your father father

Pick one.

Click to expand...

I pick both.

Neat.