keras

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The next big events happened in the first century during the Jewish wars as prophecied by Jesus in the 70ad Temple discourse and culminating in it's final destruction in 70ad.........
I suppose that as a preterist American, the next big event for you in our day, will be the Basketball Finals, or some such BIG event.

I see by the 3 verses you post under your preterist message, do tell of the forthcoming destruction of 'Babylon', who is now a metaphor for and ungodly city or nation. A huge anomaly from you here.
No wonder I just usually scroll past your lengthy and time wasting posts.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I suppose that as a preterist American, the next big event for you in our day, will be the Basketball Finals, or some such BIG event.
I see by the 3 verses you post under your preterist message, do tell of the forthcoming destruction of 'Babylon', who is now a metaphor for and ungodly city or nation. A huge anomaly from you here.
No wonder I just usually scroll past your lengthy and time wasting posts.
A biblical future 7yr peace treaty is poppycock. Nothing to do whatsoever with future end time prophecies....

You could have done without the personal attack. But I am used to that from hard core futurists and zionist dispensationalists..................

John 5:39
"Ye are searching the Writings
that ye are seeming in them life age-during to be having, and those are the ones-testifying about Me".

Luke 24:44 He said yet toward them "these the words of Me which I speak toward ye still being together ye, that is binding to be filled all the having been Written/gegrammena <1125> (5772) in the Law of Moses, and the prophets and psalms about Me".

2Peter 3:16
As also/and in all the letters, speaking in them about these-things; in which are difficult to understand any which the un-learned and un-steadfast are wresting/twisting as also the rest of Writings, toward the own of them destruction/apwleian <684>. [# 684 used reve 17:8, 11]

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

LUKE 16:24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me! and send Lazarus! that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am pained in this flame.' "
27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' "
29 "Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' "
John 5:45 "Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you — Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote about me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?"
 
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parousia70

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I suppose that as a preterist American, the next big event for you in our day, will be the Basketball Finals, or some such BIG event.

I'm going to Game 5, Portland Trailblazers vs. OKC Thunder tonight! Hoping the Blazers close out the series, as they head into tonight's game up 3 to 1.

All sorts of people will be in attendance, not just preterists :)
 
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parousia70

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To hold that is to hold that the resurrection (both) are past. This is a troubling position.

Well, even though Resurrection is a tricky topic, it's easy to prove it's not a one or two time event from scripture.

The Bible uses the term "resurrection" of national restorations (Isa 26:13-14,19-20/ Ez 37), personal salvation/baptism, the transfer of departed souls in the O.T. Hades/Sheol into God's heaven, and the final state of all things.
Parsing them all out is what can get tricky.

I maintain that the destruction of the Old Covenant nation is the primary sense of the apostles' eschatological teachings.

For example, I would characterize Luke 2:34-35 as speaking of Israel's first-century destruction and re-constitution via the Nazarene sect of King Jesus under the foretold NEW covenant.

Then, I am of the view that 1 Thess 4:13-17 is a discussion of when the O.T. dead would escape Hades/Sheol and be united to Christ in the heavenlies. In short, Paul says that their release from Hades was about to happen, as the impending historic change of the covenants (Heb 8:13/2 Cor 3:6-11) was to be marked by the Temple's profanation/desecration (2 Thess 2:3-4/Matt 23:33-24:2) and God's wrath on their disobedient Jewish countrymen (1 Thess 2:15-16/Mt 23:33-38/Acts 3:22-24).

It is even possible to understand resurrection in light of the AD 30-AD 70 period, as the word itself means "to stand" and receives multiple uses and meanings in scripture. (Like the examples I said before: the OT "national resurrections" of Israel; the "being raised" with Christ in baptism; the removal of the departed OT souls from Hades to Heaven; the final state).

Many of today's Christians have erred by not recognizing the link between the time statements and the end of the Old Covenant age, when God came in judgment upon Christ's enemies (Pharisees, Zealots, Sadducees, etc) at AD 70. Yes, even though we hold firm to a *final* judgment of God in the future, the imminent one that was "near" and "soon" and "at hand" to first-century jews was the AD 70 end of their nation and covenant and priesthood and tribes and 1500-year dynasty under Moses. The old nation instituted by Moses gave way to the new and greater covenanted nation which was made worldwide in Christ Jesus.

Just about everyone who studies NT theology knows that a major change took place for the dead back in the first century. In OT times, the dead did *not* ascend into Heaven but rather were prevented from doing so by the absence of a covenant that cleansed them fully. Moreover, nearly all christian groups admit that a change has occurred for the dead between the OT times and the NT times. What is entirely unclear however is precisely when that change took place. I am making the case that the bible teaches it took place when the Temple was destroyed during their "visitation" (Luke 19:40-44), in the days of vengeance (Luke 21:20-22).

The destruction of the Temple was hugely significant in that it was the historic signifier that the Old Covenant had vanished and the New had replaced it. Moreover, the destruction of the Temple was a key teaching of Christ, and one St. Paul picks up on at 2 Thess 2:3-4. And so I believe the most obvious and biblical understanding of 1 Thess 4 is that the dead in Hades were to be united to Christ when the Temple was profaned and desecrated. The "change" was huge, for it was the precise "change" that we think of when we distinguish the Old Covenant from the New Covenant.

What was to happen to the O.T-era dead was a central issue in the switch from the Old Covenant age to the New Covenant age. And in fact, nearly all christian groups admit that a major change took place for the dead during that time. Yet there is no agreement about what event marked their release from Hades. I believe the scripture is clear that the destruction of the Temple marked their release from Hades, as St. Paul teaches.

I think Paul addresses it by saying the dead ones go first and living ones later. For sure, I believe we can all agree that faithful Christians do now go to heaven at death, and that this phenomenon began no later than AD 70. I believe St. Paul marks the change as having taken place with the destruction of the Old Covenant constitution and commonwealth.

None of this in any way negates or usurps the FUTURE RESURRECTION to the FINAL state of all creation.

Not recognizing this fact is, IMO where both the full preterists, as well as the rabid anti-preterists, err.

Jesus comes only twice.

Actually, Scripture testifies He has Come MULTIPLE TIMES since the ascension.

Here's one:
Acts 7:55-56
55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, 56 and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”

And the next coming of Jesus was here:
Acts 9:3-5
3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.

And then He plainly came as the Lord of the Vineyard/Chief Cornerstone in 70AD in fulfillment of Matthew 21:33-45, Crushing the Wicked generation of Jews, just as He promised He would here:

40 “Therefore, when the lord of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”
41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

And of course, whenever... that's right, WHENEVER, Two or Three are gathered in His name, He Comes into their Midst:
Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

No matter how you slice it, Any "future to us" coming, won't be the "2nd".
 
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Berean Tim

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Well, even though Resurrection is a tricky topic, it's easy to prove it's not a one or two time event from scripture.

The Bible uses the term "resurrection" of national restorations (Isa 26:13-14,19-20/ Ez 37), personal salvation/baptism, the transfer of departed souls in the O.T. Hades/Sheol into God's heaven, and the final state of all things.
Parsing them all out is what can get tricky.

I maintain that the destruction of the Old Covenant nation is the primary sense of the apostles' eschatological teachings.

For example, I would characterize Luke 2:34-35 as speaking of Israel's first-century destruction and re-constitution via the Nazarene sect of King Jesus under the foretold NEW covenant.

Then, I am of the view that 1 Thess 4:13-17 is a discussion of when the O.T. dead would escape Hades/Sheol and be united to Christ in the heavenlies. In short, Paul says that their release from Hades was about to happen, as the impending historic change of the covenants (Heb 8:13/2 Cor 3:6-11) was to be marked by the Temple's profanation/desecration (2 Thess 2:3-4/Matt 23:33-24:2) and God's wrath on their disobedient Jewish countrymen (1 Thess 2:15-16/Mt 23:33-38/Acts 3:22-24).

It is even possible to understand resurrection in light of the AD 30-AD 70 period, as the word itself means "to stand" and receives multiple uses and meanings in scripture. (Like the examples I said before: the OT "national resurrections" of Israel; the "being raised" with Christ in baptism; the removal of the departed OT souls from Hades to Heaven; the final state).

Many of today's Christians have erred by not recognizing the link between the time statements and the end of the Old Covenant age, when God came in judgment upon Christ's enemies (Pharisees, Zealots, Sadducees, etc) at AD 70. Yes, even though we hold firm to a *final* judgment of God in the future, the imminent one that was "near" and "soon" and "at hand" to first-century jews was the AD 70 end of their nation and covenant and priesthood and tribes and 1500-year dynasty under Moses. The old nation instituted by Moses gave way to the new and greater covenanted nation which was made worldwide in Christ Jesus.

Just about everyone who studies NT theology knows that a major change took place for the dead back in the first century. In OT times, the dead did *not* ascend into Heaven but rather were prevented from doing so by the absence of a covenant that cleansed them fully. Moreover, nearly all christian groups admit that a change has occurred for the dead between the OT times and the NT times. What is entirely unclear however is precisely when that change took place. I am making the case that the bible teaches it took place when the Temple was destroyed during their "visitation" (Luke 19:40-44), in the days of vengeance (Luke 21:20-22).

The destruction of the Temple was hugely significant in that it was the historic signifier that the Old Covenant had vanished and the New had replaced it. Moreover, the destruction of the Temple was a key teaching of Christ, and one St. Paul picks up on at 2 Thess 2:3-4. And so I believe the most obvious and biblical understanding of 1 Thess 4 is that the dead in Hades were to be united to Christ when the Temple was profaned and desecrated. The "change" was huge, for it was the precise "change" that we think of when we distinguish the Old Covenant from the New Covenant.

What was to happen to the O.T-era dead was a central issue in the switch from the Old Covenant age to the New Covenant age. And in fact, nearly all christian groups admit that a major change took place for the dead during that time. Yet there is no agreement about what event marked their release from Hades. I believe the scripture is clear that the destruction of the Temple marked their release from Hades, as St. Paul teaches.

I think Paul addresses it by saying the dead ones go first and living ones later. For sure, I believe we can all agree that faithful Christians do now go to heaven at death, and that this phenomenon began no later than AD 70. I believe St. Paul marks the change as having taken place with the destruction of the Old Covenant constitution and commonwealth.

None of this in any way negates or usurps the FUTURE RESURRECTION to the FINAL state of all creation.

Not recognizing this fact is, IMO where both the full preterists, as well as the rabid anti-preterists, err.



Actually, Scripture testifies He has Come MULTIPLE TIMES since the ascension.

Here's one:
Acts 7:55-56
55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, 56 and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”

And the next coming of Jesus was here:
Acts 9:3-5
3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.

And then He plainly came as the Lord of the Vineyard/Chief Cornerstone in 70AD in fulfillment of Matthew 21:33-45, Crushing the Wicked generation of Jews, just as He promised He would here:

40 “Therefore, when the lord of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”
41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

And of course, whenever... that's right, WHENEVER, Two or Three are gathered in His name, He Comes into their Midst:
Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

No matter how you slice it, Any "future to us" coming, won't be the "2nd".
You said : “Then, I am of the view that 1 Thess 4:13-17 is a discussion of when the O.T. dead would escape Hades/Sheol and be united to Christ in the heavenlies. In short, Paul says that their release from Hades was about to happen, as the impending historic change of the covenants (Heb 8:13/2 Cor 3:6-11) was to be marked by the Temple's profanation/desecration (2 Thess 2:3-4/Matt 23:33-24:2) and God's wrath on their disobedient Jewish countrymen (1 Thess 2:15-16/Mt 23:33-38/Acts 3:22-24).”


This is a discussion to those worried about the “dead in Christ” before Jesus returns

13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you maynot grieve as others do who have no hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,d that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words

It is the Church who’s alive and remain at Jesus’s return that’s “caught up to meet the Lord in the air

You said “Many of today's Christians have erred by not recognizing the link between the time statements and the end of the Old Covenant age, when God came in judgment upon Christ's enemies (Pharisees, Zealots, Sadducees, etc) at AD 70. Yes, even though we hold firm to a *final* judgment of God in the future, the imminent one that was "near" and "soon" and "at hand" to first-century jews was the AD 70 end of their nation and covenant and priesthood and tribes and 1500-year dynasty under Moses. The old nation instituted by Moses gave way to the new and greater covenanted nation which was made worldwide in Christ Jesus”

There are many “time stamps” Isaiah 13:6 6Wail, for the day of the LORD is near;
as destruction from the Almightyc it will come! Vs 22 22Hyenasf will cry in its towers,
and jackals in the pleasant palaces;
its time is close at hand
and its days will not be prolonged. If this is actual Babylon , Isaiah wrote this about 740 BC and Babylon didn’t fall to the Persian’s until 539 BC It’s most likely the “fall of Mystery Babylon” in Revelation as it won’t be inhabited again

And the most overlooked time stamp Matthew 24:29 29Immediately after the tribulationof those daysthe sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

No one saw Jesus come back in 70 AD

You said "None of this in any way negates or usurps the FUTURE RESURRECTION to the FINAL state of all creation."


"Not recognizing this fact is, IMO where both the full preterists, as well as the rabid anti-preterists, err."



IMO Full Preterism does deny a future resurrection. This was my point about Daniel 12 being already fulfilled. I am not a rabid anti-preterist. I simply see it differently

Finally you stated
"No matter how you slice it, Any "future to us" coming, won't be the "2nd".

Acts 1: “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.” Jesus will return in the same way he left , visibly. Steven’s vision and Paul conversion is not in line with his return, Matthew 24 :

29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming onthe cloudsof heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds,from one end of heaven to the other.

No one saw this in 70AD. No one was “gathered” in 70 Ad it was a destruction and a diaspora

I'll continue to study
 
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parousia70

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If you could re format this into a “quote > response” fashion I’ll gladly respond in kind.

I will parse our this snippet for you however...
Acts 1: “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.” Jesus will return in the same way he left , visibly. Steven’s vision and Paul conversion is not in line with his return, Matthew 24 :

In like manner as...
You have chosen that to mean “visibly” but is that what this scripture is teaching?

Jesus left alone, not accompanied by an angelic army, and only the apostles saw him go.
Do you maintain His return will be “in like manner” as that?

Jesus handed out neither reward or punishment at His ascension.
Do you maintain His return will be “in like manner” as that?

Seems to me you are cherry picking this scripture to suit your previously held bias.

It says His return would be in like manner as He went “into heaven”.

How did Jesus enter Heaven?
“Hidden from their eyes by a cloud” (Acts 1:9)
Steven and Paul’s visions absolutely qualify as fulfillment.

And go ahead and exegete Matthew 21:40-45 for us.
I couldn’t help but notice you glossed over that one..

Past event? or are we still waiting for that to happen?
 
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parousia70

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I'm going to Game 5, Portland Trailblazers vs. OKC Thunder tonight! Hoping the Blazers close out the series, as they head into tonight's game up 3 to 1.

All sorts of people will be in attendance, not just preterists :)

They pulled it of in apocalyptic fashion!
Damian Lillard rode in on a swift cloud and put out OKC’s lights at the buzzer.
Immediately after the tribulation suffered by the Thunder, the sun went dark, the moon turned to blood and the stars refused to shine Over them...

On to round 2!
 
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mkgal1

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Right now I happen to be reading about the dedication of Solomon's temple (for BSF) and this thread seems to coincide. Do you see a connection?

2 Chronicles 5:14 ~ The priests could not continue their service because of the cloud, for the glorious presence of the LORD filled the Temple of God.
 
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Berean Tim

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If you could re format this into a “quote > response” fashion I’ll gladly respond in kind.

I will parse our this snippet for you however...


In like manner as...
You have chosen that to mean “visibly” but is that what this scripture is teaching?

Jesus left alone, not accompanied by an angelic army, and only the apostles saw him go.
Do you maintain His return will be “in like manner” as that?

Jesus handed out neither reward or punishment at His ascension.
Do you maintain His return will be “in like manner” as that?

Seems to me you are cherry picking this scripture to suit your previously held bias.

It says His return would be in like manner as He went “into heaven”.

How did Jesus enter Heaven?
“Hidden from their eyes by a cloud” (Acts 1:9)
Steven and Paul’s visions absolutely qualify as fulfillment.

And go ahead and exegete Matthew 21:40-45 for us.

Sorry didn't mean to do that with my reply. I'm running a little short of time now. However,
"in like manner" I maintain it will be visible. No guessing or misunderstanding. All will see and know when Jesus returns. He will be seen coming "in the clouds" with power and glory. As well as sending his Angels to gather his Elect (Matthew 24 :29-31) not destroy the temple in 70 AD. I spend a lot of time testing myself if I'm reading into the scripture what I want to believe "cherry picking" I suggest we all do this. I gave up the Pre-trib rapture view by doing this. I am not "a rabid anti-Preterist" either. Sorry If I come off that way
I'll get back with Matthew 21:40-45
 
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mkgal1

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Berean Tim said:
Sorry didn't mean to do that with my reply. I'm running a little short of time now. However,
"in like manner" I maintain it will be visible. No guessing or misunderstanding. All will see and know when Jesus returns. He will be seen coming "in the clouds" with power and glory. As well as sending his Angels to gather his Elect (Matthew 24 :29-31) not destroy the temple in 70 AD. I spend a lot of time testing myself if I'm reading into the scripture what I want to believe "cherry picking" I suggest we all do this. I gave up the Pre-trib rapture view by doing this. I am not "a rabid anti-Preterist" either. Sorry If I come off that way
I'll get back with Matthew 21:40-45
I do believe you're reading into the text that His coming *was* to be a visible one - how else to you get around all the things that were said about "this generation" (meaning - the generation standing right in front of Jesus when He was talking)?

It WAS visible in the sense that that generation saw the literal effects of His coming in power and glory and salvation in the destruction of the entire Temple system and Jerusalem.
 
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Berean Tim

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I do believe you're reading into the text that His coming *was* to be a visible one - how else to you get around all the things that were said about "this generation" (meaning - the generation standing right in front of Jesus when He was talking)?

It WAS visible in the sense that that generation saw the literal effects of His coming in power and glory and salvation in the destruction of the entire Temple system and Jerusalem.
32“From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 34Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.
"all these things" Nobody saw Jesus. How do you "get around" gathering the elect ? I don't read into Acts 1 that the Angel says He'll come back in the same manner (in a sense) you are reading that in.
If I understand your viewpoint. You believe Jesus came back in 70 AD. Nobody saw him and the church was silent. The church fathers were still looking for Jesus's return. You (your viewpoint) seem to me to infer passages to fit that belief. I'm sure I do as well. This Forum is full of ideas. I hope I don't come off as too personable toward you. Sorry if I do
 
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parousia70

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Sorry didn't mean to do that with my reply. I'm running a little short of time now.

when you say "short of time" do you mean the same thing the apostles meant when they said the time was short? or do you mean something different? ;)

However,
"in like manner" I maintain it will be visible. No guessing or misunderstanding. All will see and know when Jesus returns. He will be seen coming "in the clouds" with power and glory.
Jehovah "came on the clouds in power and glory" multiple times throughout the OT...
In none of those instances was His coming Optically Visible, even though the prophets continually describe it as such:
[On Yahweh's coming to Egypt -- early 700s BC] Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)

[On Yahweh's coming during the Maccabean Period] For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] Therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because you are turbulent more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my ordinances, neither have done after the ordinances of the nations that are round about you; therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Behold, I, even I, am against you; and I will execute judgments in the midst of you before the eyes of the nations. I will do in you that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all your abominations (Ez 5:7-9)
(Side note on Ezekiel 5:7-9, Notice how Ezekiel states that the 6th century Judgment upon Israel would be the worst of God's Judgments that "ever was, nor ever shall be" - Interesting huh?)

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)

After David defeated Saul (which I hope we can agree is already fulfilled and not future to us) He described that Battle this way: (2 Samuel 22:8-16)

8“Then the earth shook and trembled;
The foundations of heaven quaked and were shaken,
Because He was angry.
9 Smoke went up from His nostrils,
And devouring fire from His mouth;
Coals were kindled by it.
10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With darkness under His feet.
11 He rode upon a cherub, and flew;

And He was seen upon the wings of the wind.
12 He made darkness canopies around Him,
Dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
13 From the brightness before Him
Coals of fire were kindled.

14 “The Lord thundered from heaven,
And the Most High uttered His voice.
15 He sent out arrows and scattered them;
Lightning bolts, and He vanquished them.
16 Then the channels of the sea were seen,
The foundations of the world were uncovered,
At the rebuke of the Lord,
At the blast of the breath of His nostrils.

Every time Yahweh "came in the clouds" and was "seen by all eyes" throughout the OT He did so INVISIBLY. We have absolutely ZERO scriptural instruction to make that same language mean something POLAR OPPOSITE to the clear and consistent OT teaching when we find it in the NT.
ZERO.

Furthermore, The cloud-coming of Revelation 1:7 that "every eye would see" is shown in Revelation 14:14-20 to be an event that occurs in the heavenly realms. As the passage reveals, Christ's actions and commands in the heavenlies result in various tribulation-period disasters that transpire on earth. Simply put, Revelation 14:14-20 is the cloud-coming that "every eye would see." This is significant, for St. John is not describing the coming of Christ as some visual spectacular with cumulus clouds in the skies overhead, but as the coming of Yahweh himself, making Christ equal with the Father. Jesus promised his apostles that he would return in their lifetimes "in the glory of the Father" (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34). Christ's return at AD 67-70 was precisely in the manner and tradition of Yahweh's Old-Testament-era comings cited above.

As stated in Matthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation. Jesus Christ, the Lord of heaven and earth, came in the glory of the Father and did so in the lifetimes of the apostles, exactly as he promised (Matt 16:27-28; 24:33-34).


I look forward to it.
 
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mkgal1

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32“From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 34Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.
"all these things" Nobody saw Jesus. How do you "get around" gathering the elect ? I don't read into Acts 1 that the Angel says He'll come back in the same manner (in a sense) you are reading that in.
If I understand your viewpoint. You believe Jesus came back in 70 AD. Nobody saw him and the church was silent. The church fathers were still looking for Jesus's return. You (your viewpoint) seem to me to infer passages to fit that belief. I'm sure I do as well. This Forum is full of ideas. I hope I don't come off as too personable toward you. Sorry if I do
Jesus is God incarnate. We don't always see God or His presence. I'm of the belief that the generation of faithful followers of Jesus saw the signs He warned about and fled to Pella (as Jesus had instructed them to do - in order to remain safe). The Greek Orthodox church celebrates the early believers and even has records of some of their names (but I can't seem to locate that right now) and they celebrate their faithful lives. I believe that was the "gathering of the elect".

I believe the Son of Man came on the clouds of glory with great power and salvation in 70 AD - yes - just as He said He would. I also see that as different than His final appearing that we are waiting for.
 
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mkgal1

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From what I understand, the basic rule of interpretation is to look at how a phrase is FIRST used. Just as Parousia70 has provided us with a lot of OT examples of apocalyptic language - ISTM that there is a lot of significance to the use of "cloud" in relation to God's presence. I believe this is the first time "cloud" is used that way in the OT. There seems to be a theme throughout the Bible:

Exodus 16:10 ~ And as Aaron spoke to the whole congregation of the Israelites, they looked towards the wilderness, and the glory of the Lord appeared in the cloud.

Numbers 11:25 ~
25 Then the Lord came down in the cloud and spoke to him, and took some of the spirit that was on him and put it on the seventy elders; and when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied. But they did not do so again.


 
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LittleLambofJesus

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32“From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 34Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.
"all these things" Nobody saw Jesus. How do you "get around" gathering the elect ? I don't read into Acts 1 that the Angel says He'll come back in the same manner (in a sense) you are reading that in.
If I understand your viewpoint. You believe Jesus came back in 70 AD. Nobody saw him and the church was silent. The church fathers were still looking for Jesus's return. You (your viewpoint) seem to me to infer passages to fit that belief. I'm sure I do as well. This Forum is full of ideas. I hope I don't come off as too personable toward you. Sorry if I do
Fig tree......summer nigh.....repent!

Jer 5:17
And they shall eat up your harvest and your bread, Which your sons and daughters should eat. They shall eat up your flocks and your herds; They shall eat up your vines and your fig trees;
They shall destroy your fortified cities, In which you trust, with the sword.

Amo 4:9
“I blasted you with blight and mildew. When your gardens increased,
Your vineyards, Your fig trees, And your olive trees,The locust devoured them;
Yet you have not returned to Me,” Says the LORD

Nah 3:12
All your strongholds are fig trees with ripened figs:
If they are shaken, They fall into the mouth of the eater.
=====================================
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matthew 24
1 And Jesus going out of the Temple
32 Yet from the fig-tree be ye learning! the parable:
Whenever already its branch may be becoming tender, and the leaves may be sprouting<1631>,
ye are knowing that nigh is the summer

Mark 13:28
1 And of His going out<1607> of the Temple
28 ‘Yet from the fig-tree, be ye learning the parable.
When the branch of it tender may be becoming, and may be sprouting<1631> the leaves,
ye are knowing that nigh is the summer

Luke 21:
5 and of some saying concerning the Temple
29 And He told a parable to them. Be seeing the fig-tree and all the trees,
30 whenever they should be budding<4261> already observing from yourselves
ye are knowing thru that already nigh is the summer

Joe 1:12

The vine has dried up,
And the fig tree has withered; The pomegranate tree, The palm tree also, And the apple tree—
All the trees of the field are withered;
Surely joy has withered away from the sons of men.

============================
Mark 13:1
And He going forth out of the Temple,
one of His Disciples is saying to Him “Teacher! behold! what manner of stones and what manner of buildings”

Most all of these items in Reve 18:12 are mentioned concerning Solomon's/Herod's Temple

WHAT "MANNER OF BUILDINGS AND STONES" 1ST CENTURY TEMPLE 70AD

Rev 18:12

“merchandise of gold and silver, precious stones and pearls, fine linen and purple, silk and scarlet, every kind of citron wood, every kind of object of ivory, every kind of object of most precious wood, bronze, iron, and marble;

1Ch 29:2
“Now for the house of my God I have prepared with all my might: gold for things to be made of gold, silver for things of silver, bronze for things of bronze, iron for things of iron, wood for things of wood, onyx stones, stones to be set, glistening stones of various colors, all kinds of precious stones, and marble slabs in abundance.

2Ch 9:13
The weight of gold that came to Solomon yearly was six hundred and sixty-six talents of gold,

Dan 2:35
“Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
=============================

https://www.bible-history.com/jewishtemple/JEWISH_TEMPLEHerods_Temple00000006.htm

None of the restorations or extensions of the Second Temple of Zerubbabel could compare with the work begun by King Herod I (the Great) at the beginning of 19 BC. Herod complained that the Temple of Zerubbabel was built like a fortress and was shorter than that of Solomon’s Temple by about 90 feet because of a decree made by Darius, the Persian king. King Herod no doubt wanted to be remembered forever as the builder of the greatest temple of the Jews.

Although the reconstruction was equal to an entire rebuilding, still the Herodian Temple cannot be spoken of as a third Temple, for Herod even said himself, that it was only intended to be regarded as an enlarging and further beautifying of that of Zerubbabel’s.
The work of rebuilding the Temple began in 19 BC which was the 18th year of King Herod’s reign. There were 10,000 skilled laborers and according to Josephus (Ant. 15.11.2) the laity could not enter certain parts of the building, therefore 1000 Levites were specially trained as builders and masons, and carried out their work so efficiently and carefully that at no time was there any interruption in the sacrifices and other services. The work was started by leveling larger portions of the Temple Mount, so that the new building might be erected on a broader base. It was also made much taller, so that the white stone gleamed in the bright Palestinian sun and could be seen from miles away.....................................
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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From what I understand, the basic rule of interpretation is to look at how a phrase is FIRST used. Just as Parousia70 has provided us with a lot of OT examples of apocalyptic language - ISTM that there is a lot of significance to the use of "cloud" in relation to God's presence. I believe this is the first time "cloud" is used that way in the OT. There seems to be a theme throughout the Bible:

Exodus 16:10 ~ And as Aaron spoke to the whole congregation of the Israelites, they looked towards the wilderness, and the glory of the Lord appeared in the cloud.

Numbers 11:25 ~
25 Then the Lord came down in the cloud and spoke to him, and took some of the spirit that was on him and put it on the seventy elders; and when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied. But they did not do so again.
Good verses!
The Sanctuary in Revelation is an awesome study. There are already worshipers in it and is where the Messengers come out of.

Rev 7:15
because of this are they before the throne of God, and they do service to Him day and night in His Sanctuary,
and He who is sitting upon the throne shall tabernacle over them;

Rev 15:6
and come forth did the seven Messengers having the seven plagues, out of the Sanctuary, clothed in linen, pure and shining, and girded round the breasts with golden girdles:


Revelation 15:8
And is being replete the Sanctuary<3485> of smoke out of the Glory of the God and out of the power of Him.
And no one was able to be entering into the Sanctuary until should be being finished the seven blows of the seven Messengers.


Joshua 6 [7 Priests-7 trumpets-shofars] and Revelation [7 Messengers-7 trumpets]..

Joshua 6:13
Then seven Priests bearing seven trumpets of rams' horns before the Ark of the LORD went on continually and blew with the trumpets.
sanctuary smoke.jpg
 
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mkgal1

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If I understand your viewpoint. You believe Jesus came back in 70 AD. Nobody saw him and the church was silent. The church fathers were still looking for Jesus's return. You (your viewpoint) seem to me to infer passages to fit that belief.
I believe He fulfilled the Scriptures about His coming in the clouds in power, glory, and salvation (I wouldn't use the language that "He came back" ).

Daniel 7:13 ~ As my vision continued that night, I saw someone like a son of man coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient One and was led into his presence.

The church was mostly living in underground caves for the first few centuries, because of persecution. Here's an interesting timeline according to the Orthodox church records:

New Testament era
Main article: Timeline of Church History (New Testament Era)
Apostolic era (33-100)
Main article: Timeline of Church History (Apostolic Era (33-100))
 
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mkgal1

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N.T. Wright does - what I think is - an excellent job of explaining the significance of Jesus' use of the term "Son of Man".

The passages he's focused on begin here:


The Plot to Kill Jesus
(Mark 14:1-2; Luke 22:1-6; John 11:45-57)

Matthew 26 ~
1 When Jesus had finished saying all these things, He told His disciples, 2“You know that the Passover begins in two days, and the Son of Man will be handed over to be crucified.”

3 At that time the chief priests and elders of the people assembled in the courtyard of the high priest, whose name was Caiaphas, 4 and they conspired to arrest Jesus covertly and kill Him. 5“But not during the feast,” they said, “or there may be a riot among the people.”

Jesus Faces the Sanhedrin
(Isaiah 53:1-8; Mark 14:53-65; John 18:19-24; 1 Peter 2:21-25)

57 Those who had arrested Jesus led Him away to the house of Caiaphas the high priest, where the scribes and elders had gathered. 58 But Peter followed Him at a distance, right up to the courtyard of the high priest. And he went in and sat down with the guards to see the outcome.

59 Now the chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were seeking false testimony against Jesus in order to put Him to death. 60 But they could not find it, though many false witnesses came forward.

Finally two came forward 61and declared, “This man said, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God and rebuild it in three days.’”

62So the high priest stood up and asked Him, “Have you no answer? What are these men testifying against you?”

63But Jesus remained silent.

Then the high priest said to Him, “I charge You under oath by the living God:
Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God.”

64“You have said it yourself,”
Jesus answered. “But I say to all of you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”g

65At this, the high priest tore his clothes and declared, “He has blasphemed! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. 66What do you think?”

“He deserves to die,” they answered.

67Then they spat in His face and struck Him. Others slapped Him 68and said, “Prophesy to us, Christ! Who hit You?”




Psalm 110
A psalm of David.
1 The Lord said to my Lord,
Sit in the place of honor at my right hand
until I humble your enemies,
making them a footstool under your feet.


2 The Lord will extend your powerful kingdom from Jerusalem;
you will rule over your enemies.
3 When you go to war,
your people will serve you willingly.
You are arrayed in holy garments,
and your strength will be renewed each day like the morning dew.

4 The Lord has taken an oath and will not break his vow:
You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek.

5 The Lord stands at your right hand to protect you.
He will strike down many kings when his anger erupts.
6 He will punish the nations
and fill their lands with corpses;
he will shatter heads over the whole earth.
7 But he himself will be refreshed from brooks along the way.
He will be victorious.

 
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LittleLambofJesus

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N.T. Wright does - what I think is - an excellent job of explaining the significance of Jesus' use of the term "Son of Man".

The passages he's focused on begin here:
Good post and thanks for that vid! Let's see where that phrase occurs in the Bible:

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon
"son of man"

Isa 56:2

Blessed is the man who does this, And the son of man who lays hold on it;
Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And keeps his hand from doing any evil.”
Jer 49:
18 As in the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah And their neighbors,” says the LORD,
“No one shall remain there, Nor shall a son of man dwell in it.
33 “Hazor shall be a dwelling for jackals, a desolation forever;
No one shall reside there,
Nor son of man dwell in it.”
Jer 50:40
As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah And their neighbors,” says the LORD,
So no one shall reside there, Nor son of man dwell in it.
Jer 51:43
Her cities are a desolation, A dry land and a wilderness, A land where no one dwells,
Through which no son of man passes.

The rest of the times in Ezekiel and 2 times in Daniel..........All addressing the Hebrew Israelites and Jews...........

Eze 2:
1 And He said to me, “Son of man, stand on your feet, and I will speak to you.”
3 And He said to me: “Son of man, I am sending you to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that has rebelled against Me; they and their fathers have transgressed against Me to this very day.

Dan 7:13
'I was seeing in the visions of the night, and lo, with the clouds of the heavens as a son of man was one coming, and unto the Ancient of Days he hath come, and before Him they have brought him near.
Dan 8:17
And he cometh in near my station, and at his coming in I have been afraid, and I fall on my face, and he saith unto me: Understand, son of man, for at the time of the end is the vision.
===============================
The Jews asked this question only in John's Gospel........heck, if the Jews couldn't figure out, why the should Gentiles try? Because Jesus, thru Paul, came to us also..........

Jhn 12:34
the multitude answered him, 'We heard out of the law that the Christ doth remain -- to the age; and how dost Thou say, 'That it behoveth the Son of Man to be lifted up?' who is this -- the Son of Man?'

If the Jews would read the covenantle book of Revelation, they would understand..........

Mentioned 2 times in Revelation....


Rev 1:13
and in the midst of the seven lamp-stands, one like to a son of man, clothed to the foot, and girt round at the breast with a golden girdle,

Rev 14:14
And I saw, and behold!
a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sitting like to a son of man, having upon his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle;
 
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