OSAS....= is Grace

timewerx

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This is a good video explaining James 2... How the verses are meant as a rebuke, not as an instruction to get saved, which is already established in the other books of the bible.


What about people who have accepted Christ, acknowledged Christ's sacrifice on the Cross, everything. Believes they are saved.

But their actions say they hate God, according to the Bible.

Can someone who hates God and dies while hating God whether they're aware of it or not be saved?
 
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pasifika

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Hello, Faith comes by hearing and understood the message about Christ, Romans 10:27...so we can see that our Faith begins by hearing and understand this message...Hebrew 12:2..Jesus the author and finisher of our faith. So when we talk about faith we talk about Christ Not ourselves...

Faith has two parts, (1) hearing the message (2) being understood the message - this how our heart received the message whether to (believe or not believe ) and our Actions shows our belief or disbelief of that message...

If we believe the message (about Christ ) then our actions will makes our belief complete...

Is it salvation issue?
Yes of course!! In every way...What Jesus has done for our salvation can Only be credited or given to us through our Faith..(what we believe and our Actions)

Since our Faith is about knowing Chr
 
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pasifika

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Since our faith is based on Christ Not ourselves ..so also the actions or works we've shown is not ourselves but of God who does the work in US...Philippians 2:13, 1 Corinthian 12:6.

The works that we shown which based on our faith is called Good works...and we as Christians are encouraged to do them...
 
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Anthony2019

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What is your point??
If I understand HTacianas correctly, I think the point he is making is that there is a distinction between venial and mortal sin. I have to say that I do agree with him to some extent.

Venial sins, sins committed by the believer through weakness or ignorance, do not cause an individual to fall from grace. A course of mortal sin, which is graver in matter and committed knowingly and deliberately, can harm ones relationship with God. These too can be forgiven if the sinner confesses and repents.

When we put our faith in Christ, we are justified in that God has removed the guilt and penalty of our sin and made us right through Christ's atoning sacrifice. No human effort could earn it as it is God's gift to us. As Christians, we receive sanctifying grace. The Holy Spirit works through us to help us live the Christian life, to comfort and stengthen us, to help us bear fruit, overcome sin, and to be effective disciples. Grace is God's gift to us and can never be earned. As long as we co-operate with the Holy Spirit, do not resist Him, then we remain in that state of grace. The Bible states that the Holy Spirit can be resisted and even quenched. Deliberate and intentional sin against the Spirit is dangerous, even when committed by a believer. Being a Christian does not take away a person's freewill to choose whether they will serve God or serve the world. If a person decides to reject God and choose sin, and does this knowingly and deliberately, then I would say they are in danger of losing their salvation if they do not repent.

This is my understanding, based on my interpretation of the scriptures, and one of the reasons I do not support OSAS. I appreciate others may take a different view and I would certainly not question the validity of someone's Christian faith if they happened to disagree with me. It is not for me to judge.
 
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Anthony2019

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Yes I understand the distinction but... He seals us against ever committing such mortal sin by the indwelling fear of Him Jer 32:40

In this we have assurance of salvation.
Hi Carl, you make a very good point here. But whilst I agree that God's love will always sustain us, and give us that assurance, we still have the freedom to chose what we want to do with our lives, even as Christians. Free will has been given to each and every one of us. To truly love God is only possible when it is done out of an act of the will.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Not so...

Truely born again believers have given up the 'rights' in their lives to Him. They have preferred to say Thy will be done - rather than my will be done.

They have given Him the right to override their will.

There is great comfort in doing this as He is a God of order and knows what is best for us.

Free will is often falsely presented as a sacred right.

Give me His will any day. Is this not what He instructed us to pray?
 
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Danthemailman

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Dead religion? James said:

Jas 2:24 - You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

He states rather plainly that we are "justified by works, and not by faith only", which has been the teaching of Christianity since the beginning.
Are you implying that "justified by works" = saved by works? That is not the teaching of Christianity. James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
 
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Anthony2019

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Not so...

Truely born again believers have given up the 'rights' in their lives to Him. They have preferred to say Thy will be done - rather than my will be done.

They have given Him the right to override their will.

There is great comfort in doing this as He is a God of order and knows what is best for us.

Free will is often falsely presented as a sacred right.

Give me His will any day. Is this not what He instructed us to pray?
I appreciate what you are saying, but aren't we called to surrender our will on an ongoing basis?
Galatians 5:13-17
You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh ; rather, serve one another humbly in love.
For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: 'Love your neighbour as yourself.'

If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.
 
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Danthemailman

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Using different versions:
"What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?"
"What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone?"
"What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?"
"What is the profit, my brothers, if anyone says to have faith, but has no works? Is the faith able to save him?"
In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple! :oldthumbsup:
 
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JLB777

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Doing good is up to us, there is nothing that will make us go against our free will. If we do not wish to continue in sin we will work at it until we no longer do, that simple.


Well said.


For me personally, I have found that I need His grace to do these things.




JLB
 
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Romans 8

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Some seem to think that if we disobey God's commandments because of OSAS, that there are no consequences. Well there are demon filled Christians from all ends of the earth due to disobeying God. There are many Christians whose lives ended early because they disobeyed God's laws and were living in sin. There are always consequences to not obeying God's laws. Believing OSAS doesn't change that.
 
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Anthony2019

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My church teaches that "After we have received the Holy Ghost, we may depart from grace given, and fall into sin, and by the grace of God we may arise again, and amend our lives"

I think the most important thing to remember, whatever position we take on OSAS, is that the God we love and serve is abounding in grace and rich in mercy. Lamentations 3:22-23 states "it is of the Lord's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not. They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness."

I am always reminded of the prodigal son, who received his share of the Father's property and set off to a distant country, squandering everything he had in wild living. When he came to his senses, he decided to come back to his Father. He told his Father he had sinned and rebelled against him and was no longer worthy to be called His son. While he was still far off, the Father was looking out for him, longing for him to return home. The Father wanted to celebrate that His son who had been lost, had now been found.

I believe as Christians, we have the free will to choose what we want to do with our lives. We can choose whether we wish to live our lives for Christ, or whether we wish to live our lives without Him. I have made my choice and it is my prayer every day that I will continue to abide in Him and Him with me.
 
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J.P. Zaleta

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Hello, Hi all

I ‘m new to CF and all forums so I'm not too familiar with proper etiquette. Please excuse me if I am butting into your conversation. This post is specifically responding to

"John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

So now what?


Do you believe that both believers and unbelievers alike are described as those who have done good and will be saved?Do you also believe that both believers (who sins have been washed away by the blood of Christ and stand in the righteousness of God which is by faith) and unbelievers alike are described as those who have done evil and will be condemned?"


What I am seeing on forums are conversation
people are having and other people are joining in,
picking up on what is being said without proper context.

They are joining the conversation, like I am doing,
by focusing on the above verse as my starting.
But with no point of reference as to what you are discussing.
If I am a little off topic, please give me a break.

Let’s compare CF to the Bible.
The Bible is an ongoing long conversation,
we are having with God and others.

We are joining in at different points
missing the over all point our Father is making.
Same as trying to put all the conversation
on CF into a cohesive whole.

God loves us all. He created us all. He’s telling us all a story,
about His relationship with us. As all good stories do, it ends with,
“and they all lived happily ever after.”

HapplyEver After.png


My take on what I think you are speaking about is:

Romans 3:10-12 (KJV)
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth,
there is none that seeketh after God.

They are all gone out of the way,
they are together become unprofitable;
there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Romans 3:22 (KJV)
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ
unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Romans 9:11 (KJV)
"(For the children being not yet born,
neither having done any good or evil,
t
hat the purpose of God according to election might stand,
not of works, but of him that calleth."

I do not think the verse is talking about sinners,
believers or the righteous.

I think it is part of God comparing and contrasting
what He is doing to what man things He is doing.
The Jews and many modern Christians have the belief

that God is weighing us in the scales and if we tip the balance
with a few good works we are in but God
has tipped the scale in our favor
since before the foundation of the world. :clap:

Weighing Tipping the balance.jpg


What is happening in this conversation
and in the Bible can be seen as similar to the following:

Johnny says, “the Eagles are going to win”.
Billy says, “the Giants are going to win.”
But the true answer is no one knows who will win.


The text we are using for our authority is the blue text above.
It is 100% true and accurate, in that it is written here,
in its original form.

One quotes it as absolute truth, “Eagles win.”
The other takes it as gospel, “Giants win.”

But the real truth is, no one knows who will win.
That’s the truth we are to take from the blue text above.
Even though all of it is accurate and true.
But "no one knows" is the take away.

The Bible is accurate and true. But in some places,
it is presenting Father God as harsh, strict ready to destroy us all,
at the drop of a hat, for picking up sticks on the Sabbath.

Other places, Jesus God, is seen as loving, kind and merciful.
What are we to take from that? The Father and Jesus are one.
Jesus only says what the Father has spoken, and the truth is,

{understand the following verse as you understood
the truth comparison in the blue text above]

John 12:49-50 (KJV)
“For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me,
he gave me a commandment,
what I should say, and what I should speak.

And I know that his commandment is life everlasting:
whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”

From the beginning sin brought death. But God says “Life Everlasting”

What follows is some of the verses that I came to mind
when I encountered this thread.
With some thoughts about those verses as read through them.

Psalm 53:1-3 (KJV)
“The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.
Corrupt are they and have done abominable iniquity:
there is none that doeth good.

God looked down from heaven upon the children of men,
to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.

Every one of them is gone back:
they are altogether become filthy;
there is none that doeth good, no, not one.”

Thought. Call no man a fool or we will be in danger of judgment.
Sermon on The Mount "One that does not believe in God."

Romans 3:10-24 (KJV)
"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth,
there is none that seeketh after God.

They are all gone out of the way,
they are together become unprofitable;
there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Their throat is an open sepulcher;
with their tongues they have used deceit;
the poison of asps is under their lips:

Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Destruction and misery are in their ways:

And the way of peace have they not known:
There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Now we know that what things soever the law saith,
it saith to them who are under the law:
that every mouth may be stopped,
and all the world may become guilty before God.

Therefore, by the deeds of the law
there shall no flesh be justified in his sight:
for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

But now the righteousness of God
without the law is manifested,
being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith
of Jesus Christ
unto all and upon all them that believe:
for there is no difference:


For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Being justified freely by his grace
through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus::amen::clap:

Romans 9:11 (KJV)
"(For the children being not yet born,
neither having done any good or evil,
that the purpose of God according to election might stand,
not of works, but of him that calleth.":amen:

Not yet born before we have done good or evil
God showed His Love for us.

Then when we all became His enemies,
while we were all sinners, He recoiled all to Himself.
And we all live happily ever after.

But it sure doesn’t appear that way. But it’s true.
We get to choose to be happy even rejoicing in all tribulations.
:tutu:Wow! Our choice.

God bless
JP

Butteerfly Quote.JPG
Sorry the pictures are a bit to big.
I haven't mastered sizing and wrapping text around them.
 
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DM25

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Some seem to think that if we disobey God's commandments because of OSAS, that there are no consequences. Well there are demon filled Christians from all ends of the earth due to disobeying God. There are many Christians whose lives ended early because they disobeyed God's laws and were living in sin. There are always consequences to not obeying God's laws. Believing OSAS doesn't change that.
There are definitely consequences. It's just not eternal damnation. Consequences to believers who don't live right include earthly consequences like disease, loss, poor spiritual health/feeling of disconnection from God, early death, and loss of rewards in heaven as well. The only sin that leads to death is unbelief in Jesus alone for your salvation so I would urge you to be careful.
 
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DM25

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A Christian can't commit the "mortal sin" which is blasphemy of the holy spirit... Not only are we sealed (eternally secure), but blasphemy of the holy ghost was denying the miracles Jesus performed when he was on earth. In general the unforgivable sin involves those who continually reject the holy spirit until death, so unbelief until death. A person who comes to Christ has not committed it nor can commit it anytime afterwards.
 
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Romans 8

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There are definitely consequences. It's just not eternal damnation. Consequences to believers who don't live right include earthly consequences like disease, loss, and early death, and loss of rewards in heaven as well. The only sin that leads to death is unbelief in Jesus alone for your salvation so I would urge you to be careful.

Why do you keep warming me when I clearly stated that I'm sitting on the OSAS side of the scale. Check your motivation here, it seems a bit self serving.

A Christian can't commit the "mortal sin" which is blasphemy of the holy spirit... Not only are we sealed (eternally secure), but blasphemy of the holy ghost was denying the miracles Jesus performed when he was on earth. In general the unforgivable sin involves those who continually reject the holy spirit until death, so unbelief until death. A person who comes to Christ has not committed it nor can commit it anytime afterwards.

A Christian can commit blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. It simply means that one crosses the line between light and darkness by so far that recovery is impossible. Not because he can't be forgiven, but because he is so lost in himself, he's reached the point of no return.
 
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