Isaiah 40:22 -- "Globe of the Earth"

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dad

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Perhaps your mind has been permanently locked in a different state. But if you come down to our reality for a moment, you might recognize the CONTEXT that my post was made in.

It referred exclusively to Fezzi's claim that a) the word "gyron" is not a greek word and b) that this word doesn't appear in the Septuagint. Both claims are false.

Nothing else was discussed in my posts. No interpretation of this verse given or needed.

If you want to teach atheists how they cannot understand the Bible... maybe you should learn to understand a simple text in English first.
Ignoring the context of the entire text is not prudent. Trying to justify missing the main thrust of the text by talking about some different state is childish.
 
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dad

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There are two ways to examine the context of something of interest in the Bible. One way is to examine the context of other verses in the passage as they reflect the nature of the topic. This is the method you chose on your post. Though the method being used in this topic is what the word chuwg means and in what sense was it applied in Hebrew? The word chuwg is a unique word because its a word that only can be applied to the shape of the earth whereas tebel can be applied regionally depending on the sense in which the word is applied. Both words are used to describe the shape of the earth and both are applied in context of God's creation of earth and His dominion over the inhabitants.
OK, looking at the word I see this

22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

  1. circle, circuit, compass
Old Testament Hebrew - StudyLight.org

Seems to me that could refer to an orbit also. Not necessarily to the earth being circular. Also, If He was hovering or orbiting, it would make sense that people looked small as bugs.
 
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FEZZILLA

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Excuse me, can you even read Greek?

I mean, it is there. Plain to see.

"ς"... that is a sigma. An "s". It is even there in the link you used. "γῦρος"

But when you look at the quote - the quote that you posted - it is plain to see... "ὁ κατέχων τὸν γῦρον τῆς"

That's a "ν" at the end of the word. A "ny".

How can you not see it?

I have to admit that I am not completely certain on that being the accusative form... my command of ancient greek is very limited and quite rusty.

But I can still read the letters... and the letters say "gyron".
Well now we are getting somewhere. Both γῦρος and γῦρον are variants of the same word, just as the Latin gyrum and gyrus are the same word. The only link I found so far in support of γῦρον = gyron is google translate which is not always trusted. I do not have a Greek lexicon to dive deeper. I have a store house of Hebrew lexicons and Greek lexicons containing words from the NT. But no lexicons for Septuagint. So thus I am forced to spend time digging through countless links looking for this gyron variant and all sources lead me to gyros.

But I am talking to an good old friend from Greece who's lived there for about 11 years now and says he understands about 5% of Greek. This is because Greek isn't some easy language you can just learn from google translate or wikipedia. He does know that the words I sent him have punctuations that have not been used in 100 years, and how in Greece, ancient Greek is an upper College level course. I also have other people I know who have a much better grasp on Greek than any of us do and I will consult them. I know a great deal about how atheists lie and distort everything in the Bible. Each time I investigate an issue the scam is revealed. This has been the case of 100% of all my investigations. But now I investigate Greek and bust the scam on that one. In the meantime, I can override all modern analysis by going to ancient readers of the Septuagint to see how they understood Scripture.

Oh, as I am writing this I realize I have another friend who's native to Greece who is also a Greek scholar. So I'll contact him.

Ancient Christians who read Septuagint.

Flavius Josephus (37-100 A.D.)

Josephus was a Jewish historian who wrote the Antiquity of the Jews in 70 A.D. We have seen how the earliest of Christian church fathers understood Scripture and now we will see how a Jewish historian understands Genesis.

“After this, on the second day, he placed the heaven over the whole world, and separated it from the other parts; and he determined it should stand by itself. He also placed a crystalline [firmament] round it, and put it together in a manner agreeable to the earth, and fitted it for giving moisture and rain, and for affording the advantage of dews” (Antiquity 1:30).

Red highlight: "he placed the heaven over the whole world"

Josephus says God placed the heaven over the whole world. But what does Josephus mean by "over"? He is referring to the first part of Job 26:7,

"He stretches out the North over empty space,"


Josephus continues:

Red Highlight: "and he determined it should stand by itself"

Josephus now completing his reference to Job 26:7,

"and suspends the earth over nothing at all."

Blue highlight: "[firmament] round it"

Josephus is describing how God, on the second day, placed a crystalline around the earth. This earth, not being held up by turtles or elephants or a whale, is determined by God to stand by itself (Job 26:7).

You cannot place a firmament around the whole earth if the earth is flat or even a half-sphere. So here in the 1st century, both Josephus and Clement of Rome, refute 21st century liberal scholars.. Did Josephus know how to read Hebrew? Sure he did! He not only knew how to read Hebrew but was also a highly educated historian. So all these modern arguments which fool many have no weight in light of what we read from 1st century Josephus and Clement of Rome!

Clement of Rome (A.D, 35 - 99).

“Thus, by His transcendent might He established the heavens, and by His incomprehensible understanding He ordered them: the earth He separated from the water now
encircling it, and firmly grounded it on the unshakable foundation of His own will” (Ancient Christian Writers, Vol.1., Epistle To The Corinthians, 33:3).

Blue highlight: "encircling it"

Clement here is referring to two Biblical passage. The first passage is Genesis 1:6-13 which covers Days 2 & 3 of creation -- "the water now encircling it" is understood as the waters encircling a sphere. Clement was also well known for his belief in antipodes and you cannot have antipodes on a flat earth or the half-sphere of a snow-cone.

Red Highlight: "and firmly grounded it on the unshakable foundation of His own will”

Secondly, Clement refers to Job 26:7 when he says "and firmly grounded it on the unshakable foundation of His own will."
Job 26:7 can only correspond to a globe earth.

In the next quotation, Clement speaks about the rotation of the earth:

"The heavens revolve by His arrangement and are subject to Him in peace. Day and night complete the revolution ordained by Him, and neither interferes in the least with the other" (20:1-2).


Clement of Alexandria (150-215 A.D.)

Clement was a 2nd century church father. The following is taken from his writing called The Instructor, which I’m citing from the very last page of Book III entitled To The Paedagous:

“And when the seasons, in their circling course,
Winter and summer, spring and autumn, each
Should come, according to well-ordered plan;
Out of a confused heap who didst create
This ordered sphere, and from the shapeless mass
Of matter didst the universe adorn;--
Grant to me life, and be that life well spent,
Thy grace enjoying; let me act and speak
In all things as Thy Holy Scriptures teach”
(Ante-Nicene Christian Library, Vol.1).

And the Holy Scriptures taught Clement about the sphere of the earth.

Origen (185-254 A.D.)

Origen of Alexandria was born in the 2nd century but his ministry would make him a 3rd century man. He is an Ante-Nicene church father who wrote On First Principles, which is the very first book on Theology ever written by a Christian. The following quotation is taken from the John C. Cavadini edition.

“Certainly what some say of this world, that it is corruptible because it was made, and yet does not go to corruption because the will of God, who made it and preserves it from being mastered by corruption, is stronger and more powerful than corruption, may more rightly be believed of that world which we have above called a “fixed” sphere, because by the will of God it is in no way “subject to corruption” (cf.Rom 8:20, 21), for the reason that it has not admitted the causes of corruption" (On First Principles, Book II, Chapter III, p.113).

Origen continues:

". . . . and the entire condition of the world we know, in which the spheres of the planets are said to be, is left behind and superseded, there exists above that sphere which is called "fixed" an abiding place for the pious and blessed, in as it were a "good land" and a "land of the living," which the "meek" and gentle will receive for an inheritance. To this land or earth belongs that heaven which, with its more magnificent circuit, surrounds and confines it, and this is the true heaven and the first to be so called" (On First Principles, Book II, Chapter III, p.114).

The spheres of the planets is a clear reference that Origen's reading of Scripture revealed that our earth is a sphere.

These are not Latin readings. They come from both Hebrew and LXX.
 
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Speedwell

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Obviously you want to live in denial. I'm not here to brawl and fight. You want to deny it then fine.
In other words, you have no evidence whatever of a 200 year long atheist conspiracy to convince Christians that the Bible teaches a flat Earth. Your accusation is nothing but a slanderous falsehood.
 
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Well now we are getting somewhere. Both γῦρος and γῦρον are variants of the same word, just as the Latin gyrum and gyrus are the same word. The only link I found so far in support of γῦρον = gyron is google translate which is not always trusted. I do not have a Greek lexicon to dive deeper. I have a store house of Hebrew lexicons and Greek lexicons containing words from the NT. But no lexicons for Septuagint. So thus I am forced to spend time digging through countless links looking for this gyron variant and all sources lead me to gyros.

But I am talking to an good old friend from Greece who's lived there for about 11 years now and says he understands about 5% of Greek. This is because Greek isn't some easy language you can just learn from google translate or wikipedia. He does know that the words I sent him have punctuations that have not been used in 100 years, and how in Greece, ancient Greek is an upper College level course. I also have other people I know who have a much better grasp on Greek than any of us do and I will consult them. I know a great deal about how atheists lie and distort everything in the Bible. Each time I investigate an issue the scam is revealed. This has been the case of 100% of all my investigations. But now I investigate Greek and bust the scam on that one. In the meantime, I can override all modern analysis by going to ancient readers of the Septuagint to see how they understood Scripture.

Oh, as I am writing this I realize I have another friend who's native to Greece who is also a Greek scholar. So I'll contact him.

Ancient Christians who read Septuagint.

Flavius Josephus (37-100 A.D.)

Josephus was a Jewish historian who wrote the Antiquity of the Jews in 70 A.D. We have seen how the earliest of Christian church fathers understood Scripture and now we will see how a Jewish historian understands Genesis.

“After this, on the second day, he placed the heaven over the whole world, and separated it from the other parts; and he determined it should stand by itself. He also placed a crystalline [firmament] round it, and put it together in a manner agreeable to the earth, and fitted it for giving moisture and rain, and for affording the advantage of dews” (Antiquity 1:30).

Red highlight: "he placed the heaven over the whole world"

Josephus says God placed the heaven over the whole world. But what does Josephus mean by "over"? He is referring to the first part of Job 26:7,

"He stretches out the North over empty space,"


Josephus continues:

Red Highlight: "and he determined it should stand by itself"

Josephus now completing his reference to Job 26:7,

"and suspends the earth over nothing at all."

Blue highlight: "[firmament] round it"

Josephus is describing how God, on the second day, placed a crystalline around the earth. This earth, not being held up by turtles or elephants or a whale, is determined by God to stand by itself (Job 26:7).

You cannot place a firmament around the whole earth if the earth is flat or even a half-sphere. So here in the 1st century, both Josephus and Clement of Rome, refute 21st century liberal scholars.. Did Josephus know how to read Hebrew? Sure he did! He not only knew how to read Hebrew but was also a highly educated historian. So all these modern arguments which fool many have no weight in light of what we read from 1st century Josephus and Clement of Rome!

Clement of Rome (A.D, 35 - 99).

“Thus, by His transcendent might He established the heavens, and by His incomprehensible understanding He ordered them: the earth He separated from the water now
encircling it, and firmly grounded it on the unshakable foundation of His own will” (Ancient Christian Writers, Vol.1., Epistle To The Corinthians, 33:3).

Blue highlight: "encircling it"

Clement here is referring to two Biblical passage. The first passage is Genesis 1:6-13 which covers Days 2 & 3 of creation -- "the water now encircling it" is understood as the waters encircling a sphere. Clement was also well known for his belief in antipodes and you cannot have antipodes on a flat earth or the half-sphere of a snow-cone.

Red Highlight: "and firmly grounded it on the unshakable foundation of His own will”

Secondly, Clement refers to Job 26:7 when he says "and firmly grounded it on the unshakable foundation of His own will."
Job 26:7 can only correspond to a globe earth.

In the next quotation, Clement speaks about the rotation of the earth:

"The heavens revolve by His arrangement and are subject to Him in peace. Day and night complete the revolution ordained by Him, and neither interferes in the least with the other" (20:1-2).


Clement of Alexandria (150-215 A.D.)

Clement was a 2nd century church father. The following is taken from his writing called The Instructor, which I’m citing from the very last page of Book III entitled To The Paedagous:

“And when the seasons, in their circling course,
Winter and summer, spring and autumn, each
Should come, according to well-ordered plan;
Out of a confused heap who didst create
This ordered sphere, and from the shapeless mass
Of matter didst the universe adorn;--
Grant to me life, and be that life well spent,
Thy grace enjoying; let me act and speak
In all things as Thy Holy Scriptures teach”
(Ante-Nicene Christian Library, Vol.1).

And the Holy Scriptures taught Clement about the sphere of the earth.

Origen (185-254 A.D.)

Origen of Alexandria was born in the 2nd century but his ministry would make him a 3rd century man. He is an Ante-Nicene church father who wrote On First Principles, which is the very first book on Theology ever written by a Christian. The following quotation is taken from the John C. Cavadini edition.

“Certainly what some say of this world, that it is corruptible because it was made, and yet does not go to corruption because the will of God, who made it and preserves it from being mastered by corruption, is stronger and more powerful than corruption, may more rightly be believed of that world which we have above called a “fixed” sphere, because by the will of God it is in no way “subject to corruption” (cf.Rom 8:20, 21), for the reason that it has not admitted the causes of corruption" (On First Principles, Book II, Chapter III, p.113).

Origen continues:

". . . . and the entire condition of the world we know, in which the spheres of the planets are said to be, is left behind and superseded, there exists above that sphere which is called "fixed" an abiding place for the pious and blessed, in as it were a "good land" and a "land of the living," which the "meek" and gentle will receive for an inheritance. To this land or earth belongs that heaven which, with its more magnificent circuit, surrounds and confines it, and this is the true heaven and the first to be so called" (On First Principles, Book II, Chapter III, p.114).

The spheres of the planets is a clear reference that Origen's reading of Scripture revealed that our earth is a sphere.

These are not Latin readings. They come from both Hebrew and LXX.
You are still making the same basic errors. We do not care what others thought that the verses meant, and your Josephus claims are very contrived to say the least, what we care about is what the authors of those verse believed. I could just as well argue that Josephus was talking about a flat Earth. Those quotes do not support your beliefs.
 
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FEZZILLA

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You are still making the same basic errors. We do not care what others thought that the verses meant, and your Josephus claims are very contrived to say the least, what we care about is what the authors of those verse believed. I could just as well argue that Josephus was talking about a flat Earth. Those quotes do not support your beliefs.
Josephus and Clement were both contemporaries and both of their statements are strikingly similar..both quoting from the same verses. They both read the Septuagint, knew Hebrew, and lived during the Biblical times. Its abundantly clear Clement read globe earth from Scripture. To the intuitive, Josephus is also saying the earth is round. They didn't have this modern modern atheist way of twisting words like "round" to mean flat. Back the if the used "round" to describe the earth it is to be understood to be a sphere as Clement of Alexandria and Origen used. I did not quote from those reading from the Latin. They all read both Hebrew and the Greek Septuagint.

So any atheist trying to say that gyros, gyro or gyron (whoever you chose to write it), means flat earth is immediately refuted by people who very fluently read Greek who lived during the time of Koine Greek which is the form of Greek used in the Septuagint and the New Testament. The only thing I am unable to provide here is the breakdown of γῦρον as I was able to do with G3625 οἰκουμένη oikouménē. This is because I do not have a lexicon for the Greek Septuagint as of now.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Josephus and Clement were both contemporaries and both of their statements are strikingly similar..both quoting from the same verses. They both read the Septuagint, knew Hebrew, and lived during the Biblical times. Its abundantly clear Clement read globe earth from Scripture. To the intuitive, Josephus is also saying the earth is round. They didn't have this modern modern atheist way of twisting words like "round" to mean flat. Back the if the used "round" to describe the earth it is to be understood to be a sphere as Clement of Alexandria and Origen used. I did not quote from those reading from the Latin. They all read both Hebrew and the Greek Septuagint.

So any atheist trying to say that gyros, gyro or gyron (whoever you chose to write it), means flat earth is immediately refuted by people who very fluently read Greek who lived during the time of Koine Greek which is the form of Greek used in the Septuagint and the New Testament. The only thing I am unable to provide here is the breakdown of γῦρον as I was able to do with G3625 οἰκουμένη oikouménē. This is because I do not have a lexicon for the Greek Septuagint as of now.
You forgot that they lived in a culture that knew the Earth is spherical. That is going to color their interpretations and even then they do not appear to support your claims. A "firmament" in fact is a flat Earth belief.

And there is no twisting of words by atheists. The Hebrew meaning is quite clear. A chuwg is an inscribed circle, those can never be spheres. It is an error to assume that "round" means "sphere". It is an unjustified assumption.
 
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There are atheists who claim that the Bible says that the earth is flat, and insist that means that the Bible is wrong.

There are also Christians who claim that the Bible says that the earth is flat, and insist that means that science is wrong.

Both of these groups make the same error in taking certain passages too literally.
 
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FEZZILLA

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You forgot that they lived in a culture that knew the Earth is spherical. That is going to color their interpretations and even then they do not appear to support your claims. A "firmament" in fact is a flat Earth belief.

And there is no twisting of words by atheists. The Hebrew meaning is quite clear. A chuwg is an inscribed circle, those can never be spheres. It is an error to assume that "round" means "sphere". It is an unjustified assumption.
The English definition of round
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - round

"1. Cylindrical; circular; spherical or globular. round is applicable to a cylinder as well as to a globe or sphere. We say, the barrel of a musket is round; a ball is round; a circle is round."

You were saying?

The firmament, as Josephus and Clement explained to you, encircles, surrounds, the whole earth.

The Septuagint was most definitely not influenced by Greek culture as you assume to believe. It was translated by 72 very dedicated Jewish elders who would have rather died before mistranslating Scripture. You have a very strange view of Jewish culture if you believe they would have mistranslated their Holy Scriptures. But as you don't see the Bible as the Holy Word of God, you try to reduce ancient Jewish culture to your own atheist point of view while ignoring the reality that both Jews and Christians would rather die than allow the Word of God to be corrupted by pagans.

Even today we more dedicated Christians would rather die than corrupt the Bible with atheistic ideas. We will never bow to atheism because our God is real and atheists are just blind to this reality.
 
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Subduction Zone

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The English definition of round
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - round

"1. Cylindrical; circular; spherical or globular. round is applicable to a cylinder as well as to a globe or sphere. We say, the barrel of a musket is round; a ball is round; a circle is round."

You were saying?

The firmament, as Josephus and Clement explained to you, encircles, surrounds, the whole earth.

The Septuagint was most definitely not influenced by Greek culture as you assume to believe. It was translated by 72 very dedicated Jewish elders who would have rather died before mistranslating Scripture. You have a very strange view of Jewish culture if you believe they would have mistranslated their Holy Scriptures. But as you don't see the Bible as the Holy Word of God, you try to reduce ancient Jewish culture to your own atheist point of view while ignoring the reality that both Jews and Christians would rather die than allow the Word of God to be corrupted by pagans.

Even today we more dedicated Christians would rather die than corrupt the Bible with atheistic ideas. We will never bow to atheism because our God is real and atheists are just blind to this reality.
And this is an equivocation fallacy on your part. You are using a word with a vague definition, that of "round" and trying to use it for a word with a specific definition.
 
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There are atheists who claim that the Bible says that the earth is flat, and insist that means that the Bible is wrong.

There are also Christians who claim that the Bible says that the earth is flat, and insist that means that science is wrong.

Both of these groups make the same error in taking certain passages too literally.
There is no doubt that the Bible is wrong if one reads it literally. For example we know that there was no Noah's Ark, that life is the product of evolution etc., but these are not problems if one does not make the mistake of reading the passages literally. Christians should be focusing on the important parts of the Bible.

Of course the Old Testament especially only describes the Earth as flat in both word and deed, but that is only because that appears to be the belief of the people that wrote the Bible.
 
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FEZZILLA

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There is also more than one firmament. It means heaven or heavens. The singular use of "heaven" express in our modern English Bibles means the earthly atmosphere, sky.

Here is an example of what firmament means from the MEV. The word used here is "expanse" which is the proper word.

Genesis 1:8,

"God called the expanse Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day."

This passage is about the earthly sky and our atmosphere. The proper English rendering of heaven here is singular because it is only speaking about one heaven -- which in this case is our sky, atmosphere.

Genesis 1:14-17,

"And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be signs to indicate seasons, and days, and years. 15 Let them be lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. 17 Then God set them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth,"

Here God creates the sun, moon and stars in the "heavens" which is the expanse of the space beyond the earthly sky and atmosphere. This is a problem for KJV-Onlyism as old English words and grammar did not follow our modern grammar rules so "heaven" would be singular in passages in the old English Bibles but to those reading back then they understood the meaning, whereas today we see the singular "heaven" and associate that with the earthly sky.

The word translated "firmament" (KJV, NKJV, RSV) or "expanse" (MEV, ESV, YLT, NASB) is H7549 רָקִיעַ râqîya.

The New Strong's Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible:

"H7549. רָקִיעַ râqîyaʻ, raw-kee'-ah; from H7554; properly, an expanse, i.e. the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky:—firmament.

(1) Raqiya means that which is fixed and steadfast, rather than that which is solid. (1a) The application to the heavenly bodies is simple and beautiful: (b) they are not fickle and uncertain in their movements, but are regulated by a law that they cannot pass over. (2) It comes from raqa (7554) which means spread out. The firmament, then is that which is spread or stretched out--hence an expanse. Thus it is extended and fixed, or fixed space. (3) The interplanetary spaces are measured out by God, and though the stars are ever moving, they generally preserve fixed relative positions; their movements are not erratic, not in straight lines, but in orbits, and thus, though ever changing, they are always the same."


The word translated "heaven" or "heavens" is H"8064 Shamayin.

The New Strong's Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible:

"8064. [420x] Shamayin, shaw-mah'-yim; dual of an unused sing.

Shameh, shaw-mah'; from an unused root meaning to be lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perb. alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve): -- heaven (39x), air [21x], astrologer + 1895 [1x].

Introduction: Sometimes it signifies the atmosphere immediately surrounding the earth, in which the fowls of the air fly. Sometimes it is used of the space in which the clouds are floating. In other places it refers to the vast expanse through which the starts are moving in their courses. It is opposed to sheowl (7585), the one being regarded as a place of exaltation, the other of degradation; the one being represented as the dwelling place of the Most High and the angels of God, the other as the abode of the dead. It includes all space that is not occupied by the terrestrial globe, and extends from the air we breathe and the winds we feel around us to the firmament or expanse that contains the innumerable stars. This is includes, and exceeds for where our intellect ceases to operate, and fails to find a limit to the extension of space, there faith comes in. And while before the eye of the body there is spread out an infinity of space, the possession of the super-material nature brings us into communion with a Being whose nature and condition cannot adequately be described by terms of locality or extension. The heavens and the heaven of heavens cannot contain Him. The countless stars are not only known and numbered by Him, but are called into existence and fixed in their courses by His will and wisdom. Where He is, there the true heaven is; and the glories of the firmament faintly shadow forth the ineffable bliss that those must realize who are brought into relationship with Him.
(1) Shamayim is the usual for the sky and the realm of the sky (1a) birds fly (Duet.4:17). (1b) This area, high above the ground below the stars and heavenly bodies, is often a locus of visions (1 Chr. 21:16). (2) This word represents an area farther removed from the earth's surface (2a) from which come such things as (2a1) frost (Job 38:29), (2a2) snow (Is 55:10), (2a3) fire (Gen 19:24), (2a4) dust (Deut 28:24), (2a5) hail (Josh 10:11), and (a26) rain (Gen 8:2). (2b) This realm is God's storehouse; God is (3a) the dispenser of the stores and Lord of the realm (Deut 28:12). (2c) This meaning of shamayim occurs in Gen 1:7-8. (3) Shamayim also represents the realm in which the sun, moon, and stars are located (Gen 1:14). (4) The phrase "heaven and earth" may denote the entire creation (Gen 1:1). (5) Heaven is the dwelling place of God (Ps 2:4; Deut 4:39; 26:15). (5a) Another expression representing the dwelling place of God is "the highest heaven" [literally, the heaven of heavens] (Deut 10:14). (5b) This does not indicate height, but also an absolute--i.e., God's abode is a unique realm not to be identified with a physical creation. Syn.: 7834. See TWOT--2407a; BDB--1029c, 116a."

25289434_388986411556593_6676799450309246748_n.jpg
 
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FEZZILLA

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And this is an equivocation fallacy on your part. You are using a word with a vague definition, that of "round" and trying to use it for a word with a specific definition.

You said, "It is an error to assume that "round" means "sphere". It is an unjustified assumption."

I replied:

Definition of round
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - round

"1. Cylindrical; circular; spherical or globular. round is applicable to a cylinder as well as to a globe or sphere. We say, the barrel of a musket is round; a ball is round; a circle is round."

Now you say I wrote this when it was actually Noah Webster who wrote it. That is why I placed it in quotations.
 
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Subduction Zone

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You said, "It is an error to assume that "round" means "sphere". It is an unjustified assumption."

I replied:

Definition of round
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - round

"1. Cylindrical; circular; spherical or globular. round is applicable to a cylinder as well as to a globe or sphere. We say, the barrel of a musket is round; a ball is round; a circle is round."

Now you say I wrote this when it was actually Noah Webster who wrote it. That is why I placed it in quotations.
And the definition that you copied and pasted supported my claim. Spherical is only one of several ways that something can be round. Chuwg does not mean "round". It has a more limited definition.
 
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the iconoclast

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There is no doubt that the Bible is wrong if one reads it literally. For example we know that there was no Noah's Ark, that life is the product of evolution etc., but these are not problems if one does not make the mistake of reading the passages literally. Christians should be focusing on the important parts of the Bible.

Of course the Old Testament especially only describes the Earth as flat in both word and deed, but that is only because that appears to be the belief of the people that wrote the Bible.

Hey hey my friend :)

How do you know that noahs ark did not exist?

Cheers
 
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Definition of Sphere
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - Sphere

"3. An orbicular body, or a circular figure representing the earth or apparent heavens.

4. Circuit of motion; revolution; orbit; as the diurnal sphere

A RIGHT SPHERE, that aspect of the heavens in which the circles of daily motion of the heavenly bodies, are perpendicular to the horizon. A spectator at the equator views a right sphere

A PARALLEL SPHERE, that in which the circles of daily motion are parallel to the horizon. A spectator at either of the poles, would view a parallel sphere

AN OBLIQUE SPHERE, that in which the circles of daily motion are oblique to the horizon. as is the case to a spectator at any point between the equator and either pole."


Definition of circle
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - circle

"2. In popular use, the line that comprehends the figure, the plane or surface comprehended, and the whole body or solid matter of a round substance, are denominated a circle; a ring; an orb; the earth.
He that sitteth on the circle of the earth. Is.xI.

8. Circles of the sphere, are such as cut the mundane sphere, and have their periphery either on its movable surface, as the meridians; or in another immovable, conterminous and equidistant surface, as the ecliptic, equator, and its parallels.

9. Circles of altitude or almucantars, are circles parallel to the horizon, having their common pole in the zenith, and diminishing as they approach the zenith.

10. Circles of latitude, are great circles perpendicular to the plane of the ecliptic, passing through its poles and through every star and planet.

11. Circles of longitude, are lesser circles parallel to the ecliptic, diminishing as they recede from it.

12. circle of perpetual apparition, one of the lesser circles, parallel to the equator, described by any point of the sphere touching the northern point of the horizon, and carried about with the diurnal motion. The stars within this circle never set.

14. Diurnal circles, are immovable circles supposed to be described by the several stars and other points in the heavens, in their diurnal rotation round the earth, or rather in the rotation of the earth round its axis.


CIRCLE, verb transitive

1. To move round; to revolve round.

And other planets circle other suns."
41DdHGXYPyL._SX354_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

 
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Subduction Zone

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There is also more than one firmament. It means heaven or heavens. The singular use of "heaven" express in our modern English Bibles means the earthly atmosphere, sky.

Here is an example of what firmament means from the MEV. The word used here is "expanse" which is the proper word.

Genesis 1:8,

"God called the expanse Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day."

This passage is about the earthly sky and our atmosphere. The proper English rendering of heaven here is singular because it is only speaking about one heaven -- which in this case is our sky, atmosphere.

Genesis 1:14-17,

"And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be signs to indicate seasons, and days, and years. 15 Let them be lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. 17 Then God set them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth,"

Here God creates the sun, moon and stars in the "heavens" which is the expanse of the space beyond the earthly sky and atmosphere. This is a problem for KJV-Onlyism as old English words and grammar did not follow our modern grammar rules so "heaven" would be singular in passages in the old English Bibles but to those reading back then they understood the meaning, whereas today we see the singular "heaven" and associate that with the earthly sky.

The word translated "firmament" (KJV, NKJV, RSV) or "expanse" (MEV, ESV, YLT, NASB) is H7549 רָקִיעַ râqîya.

The New Strong's Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible:

"H7549. רָקִיעַ râqîyaʻ, raw-kee'-ah; from H7554; properly, an expanse, i.e. the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky:—firmament.

(1) Raqiya means that which is fixed and steadfast, rather than that which is solid. (1a) The application to the heavenly bodies is simple and beautiful: (b) they are not fickle and uncertain in their movements, but are regulated by a law that they cannot pass over. (2) It comes from raqa (7554) which means spread out. The firmament, then is that which is spread or stretched out--hence an expanse. Thus it is extended and fixed, or fixed space. (3) The interplanetary spaces are measured out by God, and though the stars are ever moving, they generally preserve fixed relative positions; their movements are not erratic, not in straight lines, but in orbits, and thus, though ever changing, they are always the same."


The word translated "heaven" or "heavens" is H"8064 Shamayin.

The New Strong's Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible:

"8064. [420x] Shamayin, shaw-mah'-yim; dual of an unused sing.

Shameh, shaw-mah'; from an unused root meaning to be lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perb. alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve): -- heaven (39x), air [21x], astrologer + 1895 [1x].

Introduction: Sometimes it signifies the atmosphere immediately surrounding the earth, in which the fowls of the air fly. Sometimes it is used of the space in which the clouds are floating. In other places it refers to the vast expanse through which the starts are moving in their courses. It is opposed to sheowl (7585), the one being regarded as a place of exaltation, the other of degradation; the one being represented as the dwelling place of the Most High and the angels of God, the other as the abode of the dead. It includes all space that is not occupied by the terrestrial globe, and extends from the air we breathe and the winds we feel around us to the firmament or expanse that contains the innumerable stars. This is includes, and exceeds for where our intellect ceases to operate, and fails to find a limit to the extension of space, there faith comes in. And while before the eye of the body there is spread out an infinity of space, the possession of the super-material nature brings us into communion with a Being whose nature and condition cannot adequately be described by terms of locality or extension. The heavens and the heaven of heavens cannot contain Him. The countless stars are not only known and numbered by Him, but are called into existence and fixed in their courses by His will and wisdom. Where He is, there the true heaven is; and the glories of the firmament faintly shadow forth the ineffable bliss that those must realize who are brought into relationship with Him.
(1) Shamayim is the usual for the sky and the realm of the sky (1a) birds fly (Duet.4:17). (1b) This area, high above the ground below the stars and heavenly bodies, is often a locus of visions (1 Chr. 21:16). (2) This word represents an area farther removed from the earth's surface (2a) from which come such things as (2a1) frost (Job 38:29), (2a2) snow (Is 55:10), (2a3) fire (Gen 19:24), (2a4) dust (Deut 28:24), (2a5) hail (Josh 10:11), and (a26) rain (Gen 8:2). (2b) This realm is God's storehouse; God is (3a) the dispenser of the stores and Lord of the realm (Deut 28:12). (2c) This meaning of shamayim occurs in Gen 1:7-8. (3) Shamayim also represents the realm in which the sun, moon, and stars are located (Gen 1:14). (4) The phrase "heaven and earth" may denote the entire creation (Gen 1:1). (5) Heaven is the dwelling place of God (Ps 2:4; Deut 4:39; 26:15). (5a) Another expression representing the dwelling place of God is "the highest heaven" [literally, the heaven of heavens] (Deut 10:14). (5b) This does not indicate height, but also an absolute--i.e., God's abode is a unique realm not to be identified with a physical creation. Syn.: 7834. See TWOT--2407a; BDB--1029c, 116a."

View attachment 255318

There may be more than one firmaments in the Bible, there are not any in real life.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Hey hey my friend :)

How do you know that noahs ark did not exist?

Cheers
Another topic for another thread. But a quick explanation is that extreme events would leave extreme evidence. There is no evidence of the flood but there are floods that were both older and much much smaller. A worldwide flood should have overwritten that evidence.
 
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And the definition that you copied and pasted supported my claim. Spherical is only one of several ways that something can be round. Chuwg does not mean "round". It has a more limited definition.

Examining the 4 English Words Used to Describe Chuwg,

So both Hebrew lexicons use 4 English words to describe the Hebrew word chûwg.

✅1. circle.

In old English the word circle, whenever applied to the earth, means globe. This is because the English word circle derived from the Latin circulus which also meant globe whenever applied to the earth, as circle even today is a synonym for globe. And since our English Bibles all came from old English translations, it is only wise we should consider the old English usage of the word and how it was applied in the Bible.

✅2. Compass.

This word is used to describe a circle that surrounds, environs, encompasses from all sides. Here is your latitude and longitude, where horizontal and vertical lines intersect. Job 26:10.

✅3. circuit.

While the word circuit shares much in common with a circle, it does not mean circle. It means the earth moves in a circle. This accounts for both the rotation of the earth and its circuit around the sun. Many times in the OT the word H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl is used to describe "the habitable globe." In Latin this word translates to orbis and an orb moves and orbits.

Webster's Dictionary 1828 Definition of Circuit
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - Circuit

That which applies to Isa.40:22

"CIRCUIT, noun

1. The act of moving or passing round; as the periodical circuit of the earth round the sun, or of the moon round the earth.

2. The space inclosed in a circle, or within certain limits.

3. Any space or extent measured by traveling round.

4. That which encircles; a ring; a diadem.

CIRCUIT, verb intransitive To move in a circle; to go round.

CIRCUIT, verb transitive To move or go round."

✅4. Sphere

If you understand the first three words you now see how the 4th carries the meaning sphere.

When all four English words that are used to define chuwg are examined, we understand that chuwg, when applied to Isaiah 40:22, means an earth that is an encompassing circle that circuits in space (suspended in space, Job 26:7).

Isaiah chose chuwg because it best captured how the word of the Lord described the earth to Isaiah in his own Hebrew language. It means the circle, compass, circuit, sphere of the earth -- the chuwg of the earth.

Where do we see flat earth?
sphere-circle.png
 
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