Infant Baptism

Gregory Thompson

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You do know that Christianity is an eastern religion.

Actually, only Thomas only made it as far as India, and it wasn't very effective in changing the culture.

Christianity in Asia didn't really happen until the colonial to post colonial era.
 
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Ttalkkugjil

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Actually, only Thomas only made it as far as India, and it wasn't very effective in changing the culture.

Christianity in Asia didn't really happen until the colonial to post colonial era.

Christianity began in the East. Hence, it is an eastern religion.

I am aware of the missionaries to Asia. I studied them in university and seminary. Moreover, my grandmother's cousin and said cousin's daughters were missionaries to Korea.

In our time, much missionary work is being done by missionaries from Asia. There are even missionaries from Korea in America and Canada. They are evangelizing to the postmodern west in which Christianity is fading.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Christianity began in the East. Hence, it is an eastern religion.

I am aware of the missionaries to Asia. I studied them in university and seminary. Moreover, my grandmother's cousin and said cousin's daughters were missionaries to Korea.

In our time, much missionary work is being done by missionaries from Asia. There are even missionaries from Korea in America and Canada. They are evangelizing to the postmodern west in which Christianity is fading.
Christianity began in the middle east, was spread in the greek language and is basically a Western religion.

I'm curious as to your sources of it starting in Asia.
 
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Daniel9v9

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Children are in need of a savior... they just have no concept of that.. thus they are covered.. Nothing I do, a priest or minister can do... will change that.... It is up to God and His mercy and grace...

Sprinkling water on it's forehead just makes the parents sleep better..

Someday, down the road, the child will reach a mental maturity at which it can be held accountable for it's sin.. and accept or deny Christ....Baptized or not.....

Here you’re essentially saying that salvation is apprehended through the ability to reason, but I hold that it’s on account of God’s promise and the person and works of Christ. It’s not worked by any parent, priest or minister, but God. When reading everything the Bible has to say about Baptism, it would be ignorant to say that it’s mere water. It’s a means of grace on account of God’s promise. It’s not what we do for God but what God does for us.

The notion that children needs a conversion experience as an adult is modern and unscriptural. It’s entirely possible to be raised in faith. That’s not to say that baptised children may not fall out of faith as an adult, just as any adult can. Nonetheless, for children to be dedicated to God and raised in faith is the norm in Scripture. To prevent grace, however, is against God’s Word. It betrays a low view of what baptism is; specifically, God’s institution, command and promise in baptism.

The Arminian system confesses that we need to choose God and co-operate in salvation. I disagree - I hold that salvation, from beginning to end, is from God. When we are dead in sin, we are unable to will ourselves to life. Likewise, we cannot choose to be born, but we are born on account of God’s grace, by the regeneration of the Holy Spirit. Damnation, however, is entirely from man.
 
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Tigger45

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Do you perhaps have me confused with someone else Tiggy? I support infant baptism.
I know that you support infant baptism, you must be conditioned to assume someone disagrees with you whenever someone quotes your post. Now go back and reread those posts knowing that :holy:
 
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Tigger45

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You know for sure 100% the households had infants?
Irrelevant, bc its normative to include infants under the consept of household when there are infants within the household and not to exclude them. Especially when the Lord never excluded anyone due to age particularly children.
 
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Still... no matter.. The child isn't even aware of the day, week, weather, or the fact that it is going to grow up or anything...

So, we cannot do anything.. not even any "ceremony" or action or sprinkling.. that will have any effect on the child's eternal home when it dies.

And.... Not sprinkling or baptizing will not condemn the child either... It's a nice thought... but..nope.. That child will have to grow up and make it's own choice to accept Christ.
What?!? You think that bringing a child up in a Christian home, exposed to Christ's teachings in the Gospels and taught to pray to God, taught to confess sins and to receive Christ in the Eucharist etc... can have no effect on the life of the child, or whether or not they will ever turn to God, and Live?

I strongly disagree, and so does God (Proverbs 22:6).
 
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Gregory Thompson

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What?!? You think that bringing a child up in a Christian home, exposed to Christ's teachings in the Gospels and taught to pray to God, taught to confess sins and to receive Christ in the Eucharist etc... can have no effect on the life of the child, or whether or not they will ever turn to God, and Live?

I strongly disagree, and so does God (Proverbs 22:6).
There's no guarantee that the born once will be born again.

People can go through the motions, with an underlying and invisible motive of being approved of, and appear to everyone as a Christian since it has been their culture their entire life.
 
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JacksBratt

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Agreed that I cannot. It's God who saves.

So, Christ saves an infant, who is oblivious to everything around them... with a bit of water sprinkling by some other human?



So faith to you is mere intellectual assent - being able to check off a list of doctrines? Where do you find that notion in Scripture?

You have to be cognitive of the fact that you are a sinner. Cognitive of the fact that sinning is wrong. Cognitive of the fact that you cannot save yourself.. and Cognitive of the fact that Christ is the only way that you can be saved from these sins through His work on the Cross.

Not a baby that can only be aware of their basic needs, warmth, cold and pain....

And... not someone with a mental capacity that never allows them the comprehension of such things.



Wow Jacksy, where do you find that in the Bible?

I'll tell you what.. You tell me what I have been asking for all along...

What happens to each baby that dies in a car crash.. One baptized... One not baptized...

Then... I will show you, in the bible, how I came to that view..

Until then... "go fish".



Again, chapters and verses please.

Again.. you first.. where does it say that these humans that are not even capable of feeding themselves, cleaning themselves, walking, talking, understanding even simple concepts... Where does it tell, in the bible, how these humans are damned... for not having faith in something that they have absolutely no concept of?

Is that your God... He damns those who cannot even do basic human things or understand even basic simple concepts?

Again.... what happens to an infant, who dies.... and it's parents had the gall, stupidity, utter religious naivety... to not baptize it so that our loving God would not send it to hell.
 
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JacksBratt

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God grants faith through Baptism.



We can choose to reject it, but our salvation has nothing to do with some "choice" we make. We are saved by the grace of God alone, through faith, on Christ's account alone.



No more and no less than an adult. Salvation is by grace alone.

-CryptoLutheran
And here I thought we were saved through Faith..... hmmm.

How do we get saved then get baptized, then get faith?
 
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JacksBratt

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Together, various passages gradually draw together a fuller picture:

1At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”
2 He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me."
(Mt 18)

13Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them.
14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” 15 When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.
(Mt 19)

-----------
though it may not be needed, we can gain yet more broader context:

5 “See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes. 6 He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction.”
(Malachi 4)

13But the angel said to him: “Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to call him John. 14He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, 15for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born. 16He will bring back many of the people of Israel to the Lord their God. 17And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the parents to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”
(Luke 1)

Why this special emphasis on loving our children, in particular? Consider: it might have plausibly been a different wording that would seem ok: "...to turn the hearts of the people to their neighbors" ('love your neighbor') for instance. But it was not that, but instead it was "to turn the hearts of the parents to their children".
He says "the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these", and we can sense right off I think that there is something about children that is the right way, the way we should be, and which is acceptable to God, as He wants us to be, as confirmed further in Matthew 18.
But, for myself, I'm already content with the straightforward wording of the Matthew 19 quote by itself. It's conclusive to me.
None of this is even close to mentioning or insinuating that babies need to be baptized or go to hell.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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None of this is even close to mentioning or insinuating that babies need to be baptized or go to hell.
Yeah, cuz you see, babies are actually born on fire, so if you go SPLOOSH! it totally puts those hellfires out ;)
 
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So..... kinda like we did for our three children. Knowing that I can do nothing to save their soul or even guarantee that they will some day accept Christ....my wife and I dedicated our infants to God..

We basically stand in front of our fellow congregation, and before God.. we dedicate the child to God, accepting that this child is a gift from Him and we will do all things in our power to raise it to know the way of God...

Then, permission is given to the congregation to advise us in this task and help us on this road.

It is also, up to the child, under this guidance and teaching.. to some day.. of their own accord.. accept Christ.. or deny Him if that is what they chose.
Which is no different than what the Church has always done, except that children in the Church grow up in the fullness of the Life of the people of God, because they are initiated into this. Whether or not they choose to remain is the same choice we all have, even those baptized as adults.
There's no guarantee that the born once will be born again.

People can go through the motions, with an underlying and invisible motive of being approved of, and appear to everyone as a Christian since it has been their culture their entire life.
True... but only God has the power to guarantee, so we just bring our children up in the fullness of the faith, if we are God-fearing fathers and mothers, and place them in God's hands, hoping that by His grace they will be numbered among the just in His Heavenly Kingdom.
 
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JacksBratt

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What?!? You think that bringing a child up in a Christian home, exposed to Christ's teachings in the Gospels and taught to pray to God, taught to confess sins and to receive Christ in the Eucharist etc... can have no effect on the life of the child, or whether or not they will ever turn to God, and Live?

I strongly disagree, and so does God (Proverbs 22:6).
Where did you get that idea from?

My point was.. even if you sprinkle an infant with water... baptize it... it can still grow up and reject Christ... The child is not saved from anything if it is baptized.

Salvation is a choice each human must make on their own...Not a choice made by their parents when they are a week old.

I'm saying.. you can bring a kid up like that... and still have it walk out the door and reject Christ.
 
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