Destroying the Disastrous Doctrine of Cessationism

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Dave L

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Unfortunately for you there is no scripture that says anything remotely close to such nonsense.

He gave the five fold ministry of Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers for the purpose of equipping the saints, for the work of the ministry.

This will never change until Christ returns.


And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— Ephesians 4:11-15



JLB
We have the apostles in writing. But Paul said he was the last of the apostles. Also only the original 12 are inscribed the the foundations of heavenly Jerusalem with room for no others. Where do you see the signs and wonders performed only by the apostles today?
 
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Dave L

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Are you a preterist? That's the only conceivable way you can assume "telos" in 1 Cor 1:8 refers to anything other than the day Jesus physically returns.

And besides that, the word used in 1 Cor 13:10 is teleios, not telos.

Teleios is usually used in reference to maturing in sanctification. "Be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect".

Telos (noun) is used for the end o r consummation of a thing. Often in association with the parousia.

So no, you've not shown a sufficient link between 1 Cor 1:7, or 8, and 1 Cor 13:10. Unless you're a preterist? And then we're having a very different conversation.

On the other hand, my interpretation of "the perfect" in 1 Cor 13:10 referring to love fits the immediate context and the Biblical framework of perfection very well.
I'm Amillennial. And if you believe scripture, Paul and John both use the exact phrase "the Revelation of Jesus Christ" pointing to the same event = the Book of Revelation that will also confirm us to the end.
 
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swordsman1

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that misrepresents the facts. it's not that it's just not a common theme it's that it's not a theme at all. The bible doesn't speak of this event. if the gifts in question are to pass before the others during this special time do you not think it would be a repeated theme in the bible? I don't see why its absence in the bible is not a concern to this view.

That is irrelevent. Just because something is only mentioned once is not a legitimate reason for dismissing it. Many things in scripture are only mentioned once. Being 'born again' is only mentioned once; 'new covenant' is only mentioned once; that Paul was a tentmaker is only mentioned once; 'distinguishing of spirits' as a spiritual gift is only mentioned once; Paul's instructions governing tongues and prophecy is only mentioned once; and hundreds of other things. Should we dismiss all of those because they are only mentioned once?

In any case the completion of the canon IS mentioned elsewhere in scripture....

The completion of the canon was declared in scripture when John finished the last book of scripture and said in Rev 22:18 that if anyone added anything further then God would add to that person the plagues described therein. After John died there were no further men qualified to write scripture. The canon was closed.

Jude 3 also speaks about the completion and distribution of the canon.
Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints..
"The faith", being the sum of doctrines which Christians believe, was to be delivered to the saints "once for all". Once it was completed it was not to be added to, but delivered to the saints for distribution.

Paul obviously expected the canon to be completed in his lifetime. Near the end of his life he wrote his last epistle and told Timothy not to expect any new revelevation, but to “guard the deposit” (2 Tim 1:14).

Paul and his readers was well aware of the concept of a completed canon - they had one in their own hands, the OT. Now that they were in a new covenant era it would be perfectly reasonable for them to assume there would be a completed New Testament canon. The apostles knew that they were writing scripture (eg 2 Peter 3:15-16) and that when the last of them died there would be no further apostles to write scripture. The canon would be complete.

an eschatological interpretation is the only biblical supported theme and this is why it is responsible. it is also the popular historical interpretation, not to mention the natural interpretation of the text. the cessationist view looks at the effect first, which is the missing gifts and scans scripture for the cause and this is poor hermeneutics.

It is only the more popular interpretation because that is indeed how it reads at first glance, due to the KJV's "the perfect" and the term "face to face". However a closer study reveals that both of those terms are not what they appear to be. And hence generally only the shallower commentaries favor this view. "Completeness" is a better translation of teleios, and "face to face" is referring to the analogy of the mirror, not seeing Christ at his return.

all gifts are in part as they reflect an absence or inability within ourselves to fully perform these tasks and a dependance upon the HS to do them.

That is not how the text reads. If these gifts are representatives of the lot, then we must expect to be able to substitute any of the gifts into the text and for it to make sense. Remember "in part" is quantitative not qualitative.

"We exhort in part". Does that mean someone with the gift of exhortation can only exhort of few of his colleagues?

"We are leaders only in part". Only part of the congregation is led?

"We show mercy in part". The rest of the time people have to put up with us being merciless?

"We administer in part?". The rest of the paperwork and book-keeping can be left undone?

"We only heal in part". Well that may be true for charismatics today to only partly heal people but it certainly wasn't for those with the gift in NT times!

Etc

If the gifts here were to be representative of the lot Paul would not have just chose the revelatory ones. He would choose a higher number of diverse gifts (4 or 5 at least) just as he has done previously.

what other problems?

There are numerous problems with the eschatological interpretation....
  • In v13 it says that faith hope and love would remain after the 3 gifts had ceased. The greatest is love because love never ceases (v8), but faith and hope cease at the 2nd coming when they become reality: Heb 11:1 "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."; 2 Cor 5:6-7 "while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord - for we walk by faith, not by sight"; Rom 8:24 "but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?". So if faith and hope cease at the 2nd coming and outlast the 3 gifts then the 3 gifts must cease before the 2nd coming.

  • In scripture teleios is never used to describe heaven, Christ's return, or anything eschatological.

  • The analogy of a child maturing into a man in v11 indicates that the process would not be an instantaneous one (as would happen at the 2nd coming) but rather something that occurs over a period of time - such as the completed canon being distributed among the churches.

  • 'Face to face' in v12 is not referring to seeing Christ as continuationists suppose. There is no mention of Christ in this passage. 'Face to face' forms part of the analogy of a mirror. Before "completeness" comes they see dimly (like looking at your reflection in a poor mirror) but afterwards they see clearly (like looking at a someone face to face).

  • If Paul was referring to the 2nd coming, then it wouldn't just be prophecy, words of knowledge, and tongues that will cease. All the spiritual gifts will cease. In the eternal state there will be no need for healers, pastors, teachers, evangelists, giving, faith, discernment of spirits, etc. Yet Paul makes no mention of those ceasing. [You have attempted to address this one - but inadequately so far]

in the NASB the word occurs 80 times, it is translated as apostle 19 times. this shows the broadness of the word.

No it's not. The word occurs 80 times, but it is translated "apostle" or "apostles" 77 times.

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from apostelló

Definition
a messenger, one sent on a mission, an apostle

NASB Translation
apostle (19), apostles (52), apostles' (5), messenger (1), messengers (1), is sent (1).​


the question you should be asking is if the spiritual gift of an apostle has ceased. this sort of plays against your rule that the only revelatory gifts have ceased. it's arbitrary to say there are no more foundational apostles, obviously there are not, but rather what is the focus of the gift is the better question.

The word in the NT overwhelmingly refers to THE apostles ie. the handful who were divinely appointed, miracle working, scripture writing, eye-witnesses of the risen Christ, and authorized to infallibly speak on His behalf. Those are certainly the people Paul had in mind when he listed apostle as the first and foremost gift in 1 Cor 12:27. Has that gift ceased or not?

there are different kinds of apostles, some clearly belong to the beginning, others have more missional roles.

Not in scripture there aren't. Show me where the word "apostles" refers to a common or garden missionary. The word "apostles" always refers the twelve or so apostles of Christ. Those, along with prophets, were only for the foundation of the church.

the only verse that may arguably be defended to support the canon view is 1 Cor 13:10. I don't see why it is a strong allusion to this, at best it would be a cryptic allusion but since the rest of the Bible cannot agree with this (making it all the more cryptic) why do we waste our time with this interpretation?

It is no more cryptic that than the eschatological view with there being no mention of Christ nor his return in the passage. But of the two, the canon view poses far fewer exegetical problems.

gifts are not distributed without our control, we can reject what is offered.

Totally unbiblical. Where does it say that God offers us gifts and we choose to accept them or reject them? It says the Holy Spirit distributes gifts according to His will. Our will has nothing to do with it.

that doesn't matter, Christians can get a lot of things very wrong. what is more important is the loss of impact that Christ desires for his Church through these gifts. wag your finger at people who do it wrong, that's fine, but let's use that as a reason to teach it right.

As I said it's not a case of people today practicing their gifts wrongly. It is a case of not them having those gifts at all. Today's so called tongues, prophecies, and healings do not match the biblical descriptions of those gifts. Pentecostals and charismatics are mistaken if they think they speak in New Testament tongues. Not even Pentecostalism's chief theologian, Gordon Fee, is prepared to say that today's so called 'tongues' is NT tongues. The most he is prepared to say is that is is something analogous to NT tongues.
 
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swordsman1

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But the fact that other common themes of scripture can be linked to 1 Cor 13:10 with much more ease, and much more naturally, than the cessationist viewpoint makes the cessationist viewpoint very questionable.

How can the return of Christ be linked to it, when the passage makes no reference to Christ or his return. For that reason it is no more favourable than the canon view. But it suffers from a whole raft of problems (that nobody here has yet addressed) which the canon view avoids. It is a case of which view fits the passage best. Both views must be judged on their merits.

The plain reading of scripture leads one to believe the gifts are still valid. The only way one can read otherwise is to engage in eisegesis - read history and experience into the text. But even then, the cessationist view is questionable.

Are you saying history is wrong, and that the gifts continued throughout church history just as they did in apostolic times? Like it or not they ceased (for whatever reason you want to give). The question then becomes have the gifts been reinstated in the last 100 years as Pentecostals claim? You speak of the plain reading of scripture...well the plain reading of scripture gives us good descriptions of the NT gifts and unfortunately they don't match the gifts that are practiced today.
 
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JLB777

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We have the apostles in writing. But Paul said he was the last of the apostles. Also only the original 12 are inscribed the the foundations of heavenly Jerusalem with room for no others. Where do you see the signs and wonders performed only by the apostles today?


The scriptures don’t say He gave some to be Apostles... “in writing”.


Those are your words that you have added to the scriptures.


He gave the five fold ministry of Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers for the purpose of equipping the saints, for the work of the ministry.

This will never change until Christ returns.


And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— Ephesians 4:11-15




JLB
 
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Dave L

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The scriptures don’t say He gave some to be Apostles... “in writing”.


Those are your words that you have added to the scriptures.


He gave the five fold ministry of Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers for the purpose of equipping the saints, for the work of the ministry.

This will never change until Christ returns.


And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— Ephesians 4:11-15




JLB
Find one of the Apostolic signs and wonders being performed today..........
 
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HatGuy

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I'm Amillennial. And if you believe scripture, Paul and John both use the exact phrase "the Revelation of Jesus Christ" pointing to the same event = the Book of Revelation that will also confirm us to the end.
I believe scripture. And I believe you do too. This has nothing to do with who takes scripture more seriously. This has to do with an honest conversation on what scripture is actually saying.

Paul does not use the phrase "the Revelation of Jesus Christ" in 1 Cor 13:10. There is no reason at all to assume that "the perfect" means "the Revelation of Jesus Christ" as that phrase is not used in 1 Corinthians 13. Just because he uses that phrase in the first chapter of the book (1 Cor 1:7) it does not mean he means the same thing in 1 Cor 13:10. Why would it? The phrase and the wording is different, and so is the context of what he is saying in chapter 1 over what he is saying in chapter 13.

My interpretation is the "perfect" means love - an interpretation that fits the immediate context of the verse, and an interpretation that looks at the word for "perfect" and sees where else it is mentioned. In pretty much all cases, that word for "perfect", which is "teleios", is made in reference to sanctification throughout the Bible. If the word for "perfect" refers to sanctification 99% of the time throughout scripture and refers to the book of Revelation 0% of the time, I'd say it's pretty reasonable to assume that it does not mean the Book of Revelation. Hence, the conclusion, that "the perfect" in 1 Cor 13:10 does not refer to the book of the Revelation / the closing of the Canon.
 
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HatGuy

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How can the return of Christ be linked to it, when the passage makes no reference to Christ or his return. For that reason it is no more favourable than the canon view. But it suffers from a whole raft of problems (that nobody here has yet addressed) which the canon view avoids. It is a case of which view fits the passage best. Both views must be judged on their merits.
What I'm actually saying, IMO, is the 'perfect' in 1 Corinthians 13:10 is actually neither the return of Christ or the closing of the canon, but is simply a reference to love. This is because that's what Paul is speaking about in the chapter, and it's also because the word for "perfect" ("teleios") is usually used in the context of sanctification, of being perfected in love, of becoming mature or completed.

All Paul is saying is that everything else is silenced - everything else doesn't matter, relatively speaking - in the face of love. He is speaking poetically and matching all these grand gifts with love and saying all those gifts are stilled when love comes around. It lines up perfectly with his earlier rhetoric on how I can have the faith that moves mountains, but if I have not love, I'm just a noisy gong. This also lines up perfectly well with Ephesians 4 which says the purpose of the gifts is to attain unity and maturity ("teleion"). All of this runs with a consistent theme throughout both Pauline and Johannine writings and is therefore, if we match scripture with scripture (rather than scripture with history or experience) surely a more preferable view?

Are you saying history is wrong, and that the gifts continued throughout church history just as they did in apostolic times? Like it or not they ceased (for whatever reason you want to give). The question then becomes have the gifts been reinstated in the last 100 years as Pentecostals claim? You speak of the plain reading of scripture...well the plain reading of scripture gives us good descriptions of the NT gifts and unfortunately they don't match the gifts that are practiced today.
No, the question is first to assess what scripture is saying. Otherwise, all you're doing is reading your experience into the text, and all the pentecostal is doing is reading their experience into the text.
 
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Dave L

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I believe scripture. And I believe you do too. This has nothing to do with who takes scripture more seriously. This has to do with an honest conversation on what scripture is actually saying.

Paul does not use the phrase "the Revelation of Jesus Christ" in 1 Cor 13:10. There is no reason at all to assume that "the perfect" means "the Revelation of Jesus Christ" as that phrase is not used in 1 Corinthians 13. Just because he uses that phrase in the first chapter of the book (1 Cor 1:7) it does not mean he means the same thing in 1 Cor 13:10. Why would it? The phrase and the wording is different, and so is the context of what he is saying in chapter 1 over what he is saying in chapter 13.

My interpretation is the "perfect" means love - an interpretation that fits the immediate context of the verse, and an interpretation that looks at the word for "perfect" and sees where else it is mentioned. In pretty much all cases, that word for "perfect", which is "teleios", is made in reference to sanctification throughout the Bible. If the word for "perfect" refers to sanctification 99% of the time throughout scripture and refers to the book of Revelation 0% of the time, I'd say it's pretty reasonable to assume that it does not mean the Book of Revelation. Hence, the conclusion, that "the perfect" in 1 Cor 13:10 does not refer to the book of the Revelation / the closing of the Canon.
“But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.” (1 Corinthians 13:10–13)

Notice Paul speaks not so much about the gifts, but about incomplete knowledge becoming complete knowledge. He says nothing about when the gifts of prophecy and tongues pass away. He only refers to the passing of the present partial knowledge that was conveyed through those gifts. He leaves open the question of the time of the passing of the gifts of prophecy and tongues.

This I address in the Revelation of Jesus Christ written by John being when we stop seeking the gifts.
 
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Ken C.

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That's why the Holy Spirit brought all to their memory so they could write it down as part of the New Covenant.
In the 1970's I was in your 'camp' and I read a book. I can't remember the name of the book or the author but the Holy Spirit brought back to my remembrance the gist of it. The author was attempting to disprove the 'gifts'. He made a statement that if a Christian wanted one more of the 'gifts' and God didn't want the person to have them and if the person kept praying for them that Satan would give the person the gifts.



I believe that's what you are wanting to say; that those of us that believe that the 'gifts' are still active are being led by Satan and not the Holy Spirit. You won't admit to it because if you're wrong...well, let's not go there.



At least the author of the book I mentioned had the 'guts' to say what he thought.



Sometime after John finished his writings, Satan crept in and started leading the brethren away from what Jesus commanded the Church to do. It is time for the church to keep shining a light on the darkness that has crept in.

I was advised by the Lord in the Word to stay away from such as you because
well...you are a 'buzz kill'. See ya in Heaven.
 
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Dave L

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In the 1970's I was in your 'camp' and I read a book. I can't remember the name of the book or the author but the Holy Spirit brought back to my remembrance the gist of it. The author was attempting to disprove the 'gifts'. He made a statement that if a Christian wanted one more of the 'gifts' and God didn't want the person to have them and if the person kept praying for them that Satan would give the person the gifts.



I believe that's what you are wanting to say; that those of us that believe that the 'gifts' are still active are being led by Satan and not the Holy Spirit. You won't admit to it because if you're wrong...well, let's not go there.



At least the author of the book I mentioned had the 'guts' to say what he thought.



Sometime after John finished his writings, Satan crept in and started leading the brethren away from what Jesus commanded the Church to do. It is time for the church to keep shining a light on the darkness that has crept in.

I was advised by the Lord in the Word to stay away from such as you because
well...you are a 'buzz kill'. See ya in Heaven.
The problem is, Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail against the church. Today's "gifts" are frauds. The original expired. Check the beginnings of the Pentecostal movement and see if you can find anyone in worth believing.
 
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HatGuy

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“But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.” (1 Corinthians 13:10–13)

Notice Paul speaks not so much about the gifts, but about incomplete knowledge becoming complete knowledge. He says nothing about when the gifts of prophecy and tongues pass away. He only refers to the passing of the present partial knowledge that was conveyed through those gifts. He leaves open the question of the time of the passing of the gifts of prophecy and tongues.

This I address in the Revelation of Jesus Christ written by John being when we stop seeking the gifts.
I get the logic but I think the conclusion is wrong because the presupposition is wrong.

"8 Love never ends. But if there are prophecies, they will be set aside; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be set aside. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part, 10 but when what is perfect comes, the partial will be set aside. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror indirectly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, just as I have been fully known. 13 And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love." (1 Corinthians 10:8-13)

Verse 8 sets the tone for the following verses, which says 'love never ends' and then verse 13 wraps up Paul's argument, which says love is the greatest.

Love is greater than prophecy, tongues, or knowledge. This is Paul's argument. The purpose of the gifts is to make the body 'complete' - which, in John's language is 'perfect love'. Once it has achieved that purpose, there's no further need for them, and that's Paul's point - and one day they will achieve that purpose. There's no mystical reference to a future closing of the Canon or a reference to John's vision of the Revelation of our Lord. It's a simple argument to the Corinthians to pursue love above all the gifts because that's the point of the gifts anyway.

The same point is made in Ephesians 4 where Paul says the gifts are given to:

"12 equip the saints for the work of ministry, that is, to build up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God—a mature person, attaining to the measure of Christ’s full stature. 14 So we are no longer to be children, tossed back and forth by waves and carried about by every wind of teaching by the trickery of people who craftily carry out their deceitful schemes. 15 But practicing the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into Christ, who is the head. 16 From him the whole body grows, fitted and held together through every supporting ligament. As each one does its part, the body grows in love."

The point in Ephesians 4 is the gifts are given to grow the body into maturity. The same point is being made, more poetically, in 1 Corinthians 13.

Further evidence is clear:

A. Paul alludes to the body in Ephesians 4, just as he does in 1 Corinthians 12, just before 1 Corinthians 13.
B. Paul alludes to being a child in Ephesians 4, just as he does in 1 Corinthians 13, in the text we're referring to.
C. Paul alludes to love, knowledge and faith in Ephesians 4 - but notes that faith and knowledge ought to bring maturity.
D. Paul notes that the end goal is love in Ephesians 4:16.
E. Paul alludes to maturity in verse 13 - indicating that's the purpose of the gifts. The choice of word here is τέλειον in Greek. Hey, presto, the choice of word used in 1 Corinthians 13:10 for "perfect" is... τέλειον.

This means that "perfect" in 1 Corinthians 13:10 does not mean a closed Canon but mature believers.

As far as I'm concerned, it is far, far more reasonable to assume that Paul is not referring to some eschatological or semi-eschatological event in 1 Corinthians 13, but is referring simply to how great love is and how the purpose of the gifts is towards love, not towards self-aggrandizement or self-importance.

Why did I say your presupposition is wrong? Because I think you are presupposing that the purpose of the gifts was to write scripture. But unfortunately scripture does not describe (once, ever) that the purpose of the gifts was to provide revelation for a future Canon. While @swordsman1 above provides a pretty good and well-thought out and stated post showing that the NT church may very possibly have expected a closed Canon, I fail to see the relevance of that in this discussion because the "faith delivered once for all to the saints" would include a faith that includes the use of the gifts. One either has to believe the gifts were given for the specific purpose of formulating the Canon (there is no evidence to suggest that) or the gifts were given to the church to continue building it in love (as the Bible states). The presupposition will form the conclusion. Just because there are allusions to a closed canon in the Bible it does not mean the gifts were to cease, unless one believes that the gifts were made for forming the canon, of which there is no evidence to suggest so.
 
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swordsman1

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What I'm actually saying, IMO, is the 'perfect' in 1 Corinthians 13:10 is actually neither the return of Christ or the closing of the canon, but is simply a reference to love. This is because that's what Paul is speaking about in the chapter, and it's also because the word for "perfect" ("teleios") is usually used in the context of sanctification, of being perfected in love, of becoming mature or completed.

All Paul is saying is that everything else is silenced - everything else doesn't matter, relatively speaking - in the face of love. He is speaking poetically and matching all these grand gifts with love and saying all those gifts are stilled when love comes around. It lines up perfectly with his earlier rhetoric on how I can have the faith that moves mountains, but if I have not love, I'm just a noisy gong. This also lines up perfectly well with Ephesians 4 which says the purpose of the gifts is to attain unity and maturity ("teleion"). All of this runs with a consistent theme throughout both Pauline and Johannine writings and is therefore, if we match scripture with scripture (rather than scripture with history or experience) surely a more preferable view?

Love is certainly in the context, but from what I can see only in the sense that love is eternal and so contrasts with the 3 gifts which pass away. The Greek word teleios however does not mean love. Any lexicon will tell us it has 3 meanings - perfect, mature, or complete. The word here is also in adjective form, but the associated noun is missing (presumably because it is referring to something that cannot be expressed in a single word). So if you think teleios should be translated perfect, it is the perfect what? There also a "when" in the passage when the teleios comes and the revelatory gifts cease. In your view when does that occur?

Yours is a novel interpretation and not one I have across before. Out of the dozens of commentaries I have read by far the most common interpretations are the return of Christ and the completion of the canon. The believers death and the maturing of the church (closely linked to completion of the canon) are other less common views. Perhaps you could give us your own verse by verse commentary of the whole passage v8-13.


No, the question is first to assess what scripture is saying. Otherwise, all you're doing is reading your experience into the text, and all the pentecostal is doing is reading their experience into the text.

The completion of the canon is not an experience, it is an indisputable fact. So I am not reading anything subjective into the passage. In fact I don't read anything at all into the passage, the cessationist view is drawn entirely from the text only. The fact that the charismatic gifts did indeed die out after the canon was completed and distributed is evidence that the cessationist interpretation is correct.

You may want to avoid my question but it still needs to be answered. Whether you are a cessationist or not, the fact remains that what Pentecostals and charismatics claim is the reinstatement of the gifts of tongues, prophecy, and healing - their practice does not match the biblical description of those gifts. Tongues are nowhere described as a non-human language, Prophecy is never described as a fallible message that comes from thoughts or feelings, Healings in the NT were instantaneous and never failed.
 
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swordsman1

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I get the logic but I think the conclusion is wrong because the presupposition is wrong.

"8 Love never ends. But if there are prophecies, they will be set aside; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be set aside. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part, 10 but when what is perfect comes, the partial will be set aside. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror indirectly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, just as I have been fully known. 13 And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love." (1 Corinthians 10:8-13)

Verse 8 sets the tone for the following verses, which says 'love never ends' and then verse 13 wraps up Paul's argument, which says love is the greatest.

Love is greater than prophecy, tongues, or knowledge. This is Paul's argument. The purpose of the gifts is to make the body 'complete' - which, in John's language is 'perfect love'. Once it has achieved that purpose, there's no further need for them, and that's Paul's point - and one day they will achieve that purpose. There's no mystical reference to a future closing of the Canon or a reference to John's vision of the Revelation of our Lord. It's a simple argument to the Corinthians to pursue love above all the gifts because that's the point of the gifts anyway.

The same point is made in Ephesians 4 where Paul says the gifts are given to:

"12 equip the saints for the work of ministry, that is, to build up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God—a mature person, attaining to the measure of Christ’s full stature. 14 So we are no longer to be children, tossed back and forth by waves and carried about by every wind of teaching by the trickery of people who craftily carry out their deceitful schemes. 15 But practicing the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into Christ, who is the head. 16 From him the whole body grows, fitted and held together through every supporting ligament. As each one does its part, the body grows in love."

The point in Ephesians 4 is the gifts are given to grow the body into maturity. The same point is being made, more poetically, in 1 Corinthians 13.

Further evidence is clear:

A. Paul alludes to the body in Ephesians 4, just as he does in 1 Corinthians 12, just before 1 Corinthians 13.
B. Paul alludes to being a child in Ephesians 4, just as he does in 1 Corinthians 13, in the text we're referring to.
C. Paul alludes to love, knowledge and faith in Ephesians 4 - but notes that faith and knowledge ought to bring maturity.
D. Paul notes that the end goal is love in Ephesians 4:16.
E. Paul alludes to maturity in verse 13 - indicating that's the purpose of the gifts. The choice of word here is τέλειον in Greek. Hey, presto, the choice of word used in 1 Corinthians 13:10 for "perfect" is... τέλειον.

This means that "perfect" in 1 Corinthians 13:10 does not mean a closed Canon but mature believers.

As far as I'm concerned, it is far, far more reasonable to assume that Paul is not referring to some eschatological or semi-eschatological event in 1 Corinthians 13, but is referring simply to how great love is and how the purpose of the gifts is towards love, not towards self-aggrandizement or self-importance.

Why did I say your presupposition is wrong? Because I think you are presupposing that the purpose of the gifts was to write scripture. But unfortunately scripture does not describe (once, ever) that the purpose of the gifts was to provide revelation for a future Canon. While @swordsman1 above provides a pretty good and well-thought out and stated post showing that the NT church may very possibly have expected a closed Canon, I fail to see the relevance of that in this discussion because the "faith delivered once for all to the saints" would include a faith that includes the use of the gifts. One either has to believe the gifts were given for the specific purpose of formulating the Canon (there is no evidence to suggest that) or the gifts were given to the church to continue building it in love (as the Bible states). The presupposition will form the conclusion. Just because there are allusions to a closed canon in the Bible it does not mean the gifts were to cease, unless one believes that the gifts were made for forming the canon, of which there is no evidence to suggest so.


Your analysis is similar to Robert Thomas (professor of NT at the Masters Seminary). In his book Understanding Spiritual Gifts he also notes the parallels between 1 Cor 13 and Eph 4 with regard to maturity. His conclusion is that teleios should be translated maturity. And that a significant advance in the church's maturity was attained by having the completed canon, at which point the revelatory gifts ceased (as they were no longer necessary for instruction in the faith).

Personally I see 'completeness' as a better fit for teleios and doesn't rely on the assumption that all bible translations have got it wrong.
 
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twin1954

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I get the logic but I think the conclusion is wrong because the presupposition is wrong.

"8 Love never ends. But if there are prophecies, they will be set aside; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be set aside. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part, 10 but when what is perfect comes, the partial will be set aside. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror indirectly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, just as I have been fully known. 13 And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love." (1 Corinthians 10:8-13)

Verse 8 sets the tone for the following verses, which says 'love never ends' and then verse 13 wraps up Paul's argument, which says love is the greatest.

Love is greater than prophecy, tongues, or knowledge. This is Paul's argument. The purpose of the gifts is to make the body 'complete' - which, in John's language is 'perfect love'. Once it has achieved that purpose, there's no further need for them, and that's Paul's point - and one day they will achieve that purpose. There's no mystical reference to a future closing of the Canon or a reference to John's vision of the Revelation of our Lord. It's a simple argument to the Corinthians to pursue love above all the gifts because that's the point of the gifts anyway.

The same point is made in Ephesians 4 where Paul says the gifts are given to:

"12 equip the saints for the work of ministry, that is, to build up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God—a mature person, attaining to the measure of Christ’s full stature. 14 So we are no longer to be children, tossed back and forth by waves and carried about by every wind of teaching by the trickery of people who craftily carry out their deceitful schemes. 15 But practicing the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into Christ, who is the head. 16 From him the whole body grows, fitted and held together through every supporting ligament. As each one does its part, the body grows in love."

The point in Ephesians 4 is the gifts are given to grow the body into maturity. The same point is being made, more poetically, in 1 Corinthians 13.

Further evidence is clear:

A. Paul alludes to the body in Ephesians 4, just as he does in 1 Corinthians 12, just before 1 Corinthians 13.
B. Paul alludes to being a child in Ephesians 4, just as he does in 1 Corinthians 13, in the text we're referring to.
C. Paul alludes to love, knowledge and faith in Ephesians 4 - but notes that faith and knowledge ought to bring maturity.
D. Paul notes that the end goal is love in Ephesians 4:16.
E. Paul alludes to maturity in verse 13 - indicating that's the purpose of the gifts. The choice of word here is τέλειον in Greek. Hey, presto, the choice of word used in 1 Corinthians 13:10 for "perfect" is... τέλειον.

This means that "perfect" in 1 Corinthians 13:10 does not mean a closed Canon but mature believers.

As far as I'm concerned, it is far, far more reasonable to assume that Paul is not referring to some eschatological or semi-eschatological event in 1 Corinthians 13, but is referring simply to how great love is and how the purpose of the gifts is towards love, not towards self-aggrandizement or self-importance.

Why did I say your presupposition is wrong? Because I think you are presupposing that the purpose of the gifts was to write scripture. But unfortunately scripture does not describe (once, ever) that the purpose of the gifts was to provide revelation for a future Canon. While @swordsman1 above provides a pretty good and well-thought out and stated post showing that the NT church may very possibly have expected a closed Canon, I fail to see the relevance of that in this discussion because the "faith delivered once for all to the saints" would include a faith that includes the use of the gifts. One either has to believe the gifts were given for the specific purpose of formulating the Canon (there is no evidence to suggest that) or the gifts were given to the church to continue building it in love (as the Bible states). The presupposition will form the conclusion. Just because there are allusions to a closed canon in the Bible it does not mean the gifts were to cease, unless one believes that the gifts were made for forming the canon, of which there is no evidence to suggest so.
Did you happen to read my post #308? I think it is clear that when an abnormal thing happens: miracles,healings and speaking in tounges, it is as a sign that the one through whom it occurs is speaking the word of God.

Also you use Eph. 4 you are using out of its context.

Ephesians 4:7-14 (KJV) 7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

You might notice that I removed verses 9&10. It is a parenthetical statement and can be taken out in order to get the thought being conveyed. It is legitimate.

So what is the passage actually saying? It says that when the Lord ascended He gave gifts to men. What are the gifts He gave? Some Apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers. The gifts are men and have nothing to do with the gifts in 1Cor.

Moreover your interpretation of the 1Cor. passage to mean that the “perfect” is love while being sanctified against what that word sanctify means and how it is used in Scripture.

The word sanctify in Scripture has thre connotations as it is used.
1. It means set apart for God. An example would be anyone or anything set apart for God. An innumerable host were set apart for God in electing love before the foundation of the world.
2. It means set apart as holy to God. The vessels in the Tabernacle are an example. Nothing in their nature changed they were still gold. They were simply set apart as holy to God.
3. It means set apart and actually made holy by God. It is never used in the context of progressive holiness. The Ark and the Mercy Seat had their nature changed as holy to God. Hence Uzza’s death when he touched the Ark. Any touch would defile it.

How does that relate to your argument? Sanctification is never presented as a process in the Scripture and never something man helps accomplish. It is always an act and work of God alone. It occurs in the believer at the new birth. We are given a new nature that does not and cannot sin. The old nature is not cured or taken to the hospital of religious traditions it is taken to the cross to be crucified. It still exists with us and taints everything we do with sin but it no longer rules us. That is the battle within us daily, the flesh against the spirit, that Paul speaks of in Gal. 5.

Therefore your interpretation that the “perfect” is love shown through progressive sanctification cannot be true. We do grow in grace and knowledge but that isn’t sanctification.

Since there are no degrees to holiness or righteousness there can be no progressive holiness or righteousness. You either are or you are not.

Some passages to show my point:

Ephesians 4:20-24 (KJV) 20 But ye have not so learned Christ; 21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Pay close attention to verses 22 & 23.

2 Corinthians 5:17 (KJV)
Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

A new creation is what we are. Paul repeats the phrase in Gal. 6:15.

1 John 3:9-10 (KJV) 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

His seed is speaking about Christ. The new creation that we are is because we are the seed of Christ, as in His children. The passage is speaking of us who are born of God a new creation.

This is why the Lord told Nicodemus that you must be born again in John 3.

I hope all this makes sense.
 
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HatGuy

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You may want to avoid my question but it still needs to be answered. Whether you are a cessationist or not, the fact remains that what Pentecostals and charismatics claim is the reinstatement of the gifts of tongues, prophecy, and healing - their practice does not match the biblical description of those gifts. Tongues are nowhere described as a non-human language, Prophecy is never described as a fallible message that comes from thoughts or feelings, Healings in the NT were instantaneous and never failed.
I'll need more time to get to your other questions, so will have to do that tomorrow :). But let me first look at what is the obvious elephant in the room :p.

There's no doubt that the charismatic movement is in need of drastic reform. I am a card-carrying charismatic. I'm happy to call myself one as I do believe the gifts are for today. But that doesn't mean that I wholeheartedly endorse every gift under every tree.

Tongues are nowhere described as a non-human language
I'm actually coming to agree with this.

In fact, I think this builds a positive case for why tongues would still be valid for today. (A) It's clearly a very useful evangelistic tool (imagine being able to go into a new culture without needing to study the language before you can preach?). In Acts 2 it clearly contributed evangelistically. (B) Tongues is clearly a sign of the reverse of Babel and a sign of the fulfilment of the promise to Abraham that all nations would be blessed. The gospel promises that all nations will be under one head, Christ. Tongues is a supernatural sign of that. That sign is still very much needed today. Whenever someone wants to talk about a multi-ethnic church, too many people run for the hills. We still need a supernatural stamp of approval from God that almost slaps us across the face to see the obvious: he loves all and desires to see all in his church and in our local churches; all cultures, all races, all languages, whether that is comfortable for us or not.

I only know of one case - experienced by a good friend - where they experienced tongues in this manner. But I don't want to get into it as there is no chance I could prove this sort of thing.

Prophecy is never described as a fallible message that comes from thoughts or feelings.
NT prophecy appears to always have encouragement as its focus. (1 Corinthians 14:3.) At its most basic definition, prophecy is to "speak under divine inspiration". All preaching, therefore, should have a prophetic element - in other words, I certainly hope someone is preaching under divine inspiration when I hear them preaching! This broadens the scope of 'prophecy' and I think that the NT actually does broaden the scope quite a bit. That would need to be a further discussion. But I do know of cessationists who are happy to classify 'prophecy' as 'preaching'.

Healings in the NT were instantaneous and never failed.
I'm not sure this can be proved without a doubt. Trophimus was left sick by Paul (2 Timothy 4:20). Epaphroditus was quite sick to the point of death (Philippians 2:27). In both cases, Paul appeared to have been around during their illness, but either (a) did not pray for them, (b) did pray for them but it was not successful, (c) did pray for them and it took time for them to be healed.

We can't actually know either way. It's possible that the instantaneous healings were recorded precisely because they were unique and not the norm. But I can't see a way of knowing for sure.

At any rate, the reality is that a lot of healing within the charismatic and pentecostal movement really is just hype. Sometimes there is manipulation. Sometimes people are carried by the emotions of the moment. And sometimes people really are healed.

Healing always gets us into the realm of personal experience, and I don't like to go there much in this sort of discussion as it usually tends to be less helpful. It's a touchy subject and it's often a very hurtful one. At any rate, I will say that I have prayed for people and they've been healed, and I've been healed from prayer. Instantly. Admittedly, these were all minor illnesses. However, I do think that the gift of healing extends to doctors and I don't always think healing has to be classified as a supernatural gift only.

But all this is now just speculation and hardly helpful towards the discussion. I'm not ready to put a stake in the ground on any theology of healing right now, so I would prefer not to discuss that one for now. I've seen too many people hurt by a charismatic theology of healing that refuses to accept any nuance on the issue. On the other hand, I've seen and know people who have genuinely been healed. I have a good friend who was instantly healed from what the doctors claimed was an untreatable thyroid problem. Funny though, he had been prayed for several times, but for some reason one very unhyped very unemotional prayer only a year after his diagnosis worked.

I don't know about this one and aren't ready to tackle it.
 
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JLB777

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Find one of the Apostolic signs and wonders being performed today..........


More opinion with no scripture.




He gave the five fold ministry of Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers for the purpose of equipping the saints, for the work of the ministry.

This will never change until Christ returns.


And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— Ephesians 4:11-15




JLB
 
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twin1954

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More opinion with no scripture.




He gave the five fold ministry of Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers for the purpose of equipping the saints, for the work of the ministry.

This will never change until Christ returns.


And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— Ephesians 4:11-15




JLB
That may be true but it has nothing to do with continuationism. The context, as I pointed out above, is the Ascension gifts. The gifts He gave are men which is completely unrelated to the gifts spoken of in 1Cor.
 
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JLB777

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That may be true but it has nothing to do with continuationism. The context, as I pointed out above, is the Ascension gifts. The gifts He gave are men which is completely unrelated to the gifts spoken of in 1Cor.

I really don’t know what your point is.



JLB
 
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twin1954

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I really don’t know what your point is.



JLB
My point is that there is no connection between the Ascension gifts and the gifts of healing, tounges and other gifts spoken of that are given to men. Add to that the fact that there have been no more Apostles since John until recently. And those calling themselves Apostles are doing so on there own. The office of Apostle was given by Christ to the twelve. It was never taken by men who simply claim the office.

Christ calls and gifts His men with power, the Gospel which is the power of God unto salvation to them that believe.
 
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