Replacement Theology Refuted

Jerryhuerta · Apr 17, 2019

claninja said:
Right, this furthers my point: peace not as the world gives

Where did I or Isaiah 9:6-7 or Matthew 10:34-36 relate that any peace is expected from the world? The object of Isaiah is that Christ’s government establishes/gives peace and that would be the security of the Davidic Kingdom to its people.

Behold, the days come, saith JEHOVAH, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely; and this is his name whereby he shall be called: JEHOVAH our righteousness. Jeremiah 23:5-6

Jeremiah prophesied of the kingdom Acts 2:30-31 relates, and Christ’s proclamation he did not come to send peace is a clue that there was no intent to establish his kingdom at first advent, for those astute enough to comprehend it.

claninja said:
It doesn't say "not of this age". It states "not of this world".

But when taken with Revelation 11:15 it affirms the world in the age to come.

And the seventh angel sounded; and there followed great voices in heaven, and they said, The kingdom of the world is become the kingdom of our Lord, and of his Christ: and he shall reign for ever and ever. Revelation 11:15

The same word for “world” and there is no mistake all rebellion in this world/age to come is subdued and the time that the dead are rewarded is fixed to it. Furthermore, it is the time of the wrath of God, which is clearly conveyed as the return of Christ in 1 Thessalonians 1:10, Revelation 6:16-17 and 19:15.

claninja said:
It made Jesus king of the world. The salvation and power and the kingdom of God and the authority of Christ came when Satan was cast out at Jesus' death, resurrection, and ascension.

See how you can’t avoid conflict in your perceptions! So, by your perception we can expect the world to give us peace, since Christ is king of this world. And let me cite some more supersessionists on Satan being cast out in John 12:31.

The whole future is present to the mind of Christ, and in the confidence of victory He uses the emphatic “now” of both the judgment of the world and the dethronement of its prince. It should be noted, however, that the tenses differ. The one is thought of as the immediate result of His death; the other is the gradual victory of truth, and is spoken of in the same future as the drawing all men of the following verse. Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers (emphasis added)

Be cast out - His kingdom shall be destroyed; his empire shall come to an end. It does not mean that his reign over all men would entirely cease then, but that then would be the crisis, the grand conflict in which he would be vanquished, and from that time his kingdom begin to decline, until it would finally cease, and then be free altogether from his dominion. Barnes' Notes on the Bible (emphasis added)

I have to agree with these supersessionists, Satan did not get cast out immediately, he still ruled when Christ ascended, where Christ waits until his enemies are made his footstool and then he returns and the kingdom of the world becomes the kingdom of our Lord, and his Christ (Revelation 11:15).

claninja said:
This side steps my question. No one's arguing we don't wrestle against wickedness or powers of darkness. the question was who has greater authority now over this world, Christ or satan?

The supersessionists I cited above testify that Satan still ruled the world when Christ ascended, in which I am in agreement. That is why we cannot look to the world for our peace.

claninja said:
Christ past the through the holy place and entered into the most holy place, God's presence.

Actually, Christ is the antitype of the veil in the temple of God.

Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God… Hebrews 10:19-21

As the antitype of the veil, he ascended to the presence of the Father and is capable of performing the antitypes of the spring and autumnal festivals in their appointed times.

And if any man hear my sayings, and keep them not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. John 12:47

Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. John 8:15

Clearly, Christ did not come to judge; he came to save, in fulfillment of the antitypes of the spring festivals. But he returns to judge, in fulfillment of the antitypes of the autumnal festivals.

And I saw the heaven opened; and behold, a white horse, and he that sat thereon called Faithful and True; and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. Revelation 19:11

claninja · Apr 19, 2019

Jerryhuerta said:
Genesis 49 substantiates that Joseph, also meaning his descendants, run over the wall in the last days.

And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days…. Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall… and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel) Genesis 49:1, 22, 24 KJV
Running over the wall means they grew beyond their borders in the last days, which affirms Ephraim became a company of nations in the intra-advent age.

No one's disagreeing that Ephraim has become a multitude of nations in the last 2600-2700 years.

The disagreement seems to be if Ephraim became a multitude of nations within a period of 700 years, from the Assyrian exile to the 1st advent.

By simply showing that a multitude of nations came from Noah within a 400 year period until the time of Abraham (genesis 10-11), it is not untenable that Ephraim became a multitude of nations in a longer time span (700 years).

claninja · Apr 19, 2019

Jerryhuerta said:
Where did I or Isaiah 9:6-7 or Matthew 10:34-36 relate that any peace is expected from the world?

When I quoted the passage that Jesus gives his followers peace, but not as the world gives peace, you quoted Matthew 10, which has Jesus saying he did not come to bring peace. he came to set brother against brother, etc....

Peace from the world would expect brother and brother not to be set against each other.

Jerryhuerta said:
Jeremiah prophesied of the kingdom Acts 2:30-31 relates, and Christ’s proclamation he did not come to send peace is a clue that there was no intent to establish his kingdom at first advent, for those astute enough to comprehend it.

So Christ didn't give us his peace at his 1st advent?

Jerryhuerta said:
But when taken with Revelation 11:15 it affirms the world in the age to come.

And the seventh angel sounded; and there followed great voices in heaven, and they said, The kingdom of the world is become the kingdom of our Lord, and of his Christ: and he shall reign for ever and ever. Revelation 11:15
The same word for “world” and there is no mistake all rebellion in this world/age to come is subdued and the time that the dead are rewarded is fixed to it. Furthermore, it is the time of the wrath of God, which is clearly conveyed as the return of Christ in 1 Thessalonians 1:10, Revelation 6:16-17 and 19:15.

I'm not arguing that the kingdoms "of the world" become the kingdom of God at the end of the age.

The kingdom "comes" when Satan is cast out of heaven in accordance with Revelation 12.
Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying: “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ.

The kingdom of God comes as a mustard seed and Grows into the largest garden plant.
Luke 13:18 He said therefore, “What is the kingdom of God like? And to what shall I compare it? It is like a grain of mustard seed that a man took and sowed in his garden, and it grew and became a tree, and the birds of the air made nests in its branches.”

Christ's kingdom starts as a stone and turns into a mountain
Daniel 2:35 But the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

Christ ascended to heaven to receive the kingdom, then to reign until his enemies are made a footstool. The kingdom of God starts off small, then through the reign of Christ, grows and subdues the kingdoms of the world.

Jerryhuerta said:
So, by your perception we can expect the world to give us peace, since Christ is king of this world.

Another forced illogical conclusion.

Jerryhuerta said:
And let me cite some more supersessionists on Satan being cast out in John 12:31.

Revelation 12 has "woe to the earth" when Satan is cast out of heaven. Thus, my belief aligns with the supersessionists that you quoted.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”

When Satan was cast out he went off to make war with the offspring of the woman

Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stoodc on the sand of the sea.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

Jerryhuerta said:
The supersessionists I cited above testify that Satan still ruled the world when Christ ascended, in which I am in agreement. That is why we cannot look to the world for our peace.

So who has higher authority, Satan or Christ, over the world? You didn't answer that question and neither did the supersessionists you quoted.

Jerryhuerta said:
Actually, Christ is the antitype of the veil in the temple of God.

Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God… Hebrews 10:19-21
As the antitype of the veil, he ascended to the presence of the Father and is capable of performing the antitypes of the spring and autumnal festivals in their appointed times.

And if any man hear my sayings, and keep them not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. John 12:47

Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. John 8:15
Clearly, Christ did not come to judge; he came to save, in fulfillment of the antitypes of the spring festivals. But he returns to judge, in fulfillment of the antitypes of the autumnal festivals.

And I saw the heaven opened; and behold, a white horse, and he that sat thereon called Faithful and True; and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. Revelation 19:11

None of this surmounts my argument:

Was God's presence in the holy place or the most Holy Place? Because Christ has now appeared in the PRESENCE of God.

Hebrews 9:24 For Christ did not enter a man-made copy of the true sanctuary, but He entered heaven itself, now to appear on our behalf in the presence of God.

The author of Hebrews mentions "high priest" and entering the holy places "every year". This clearly points to the day of atonement. So your argument that the day of atonement is not yet fulfilled is still simply incorrect.

hebrews 9:25 Nor did He enter heaven to offer Himself again and again, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood that is not his own.

Hebrews 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

Notice "become" and "to make" are both past tense verbs, Thus Christ is already the high priest, who made atonement for the sins of his people.
Hebrews 2:17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make atonement for the sins of the people.

Jerryhuerta · Apr 19, 2019

claninja said:
No one's disagreeing that Ephraim has become a multitude of nations in the last 2600-2700 years.

The disagreement seems to be if Ephraim became a multitude of nations within a period of 700 years, from the Assyrian exile to the 1st advent.

By simply showing that a multitude of nations came from Noah within a 400 year period until the time of Abraham (genesis 10-11), it is not untenable that Ephraim became a multitude of nations in a longer time span (700 years).

Not so, when one accounts for the Shepherd, the Stone of Israel is tied to the event when Ephraim and Manasseh run over the wall in the last days, in Genesis 49.

Jerryhuerta · Apr 19, 2019

claninja said:
When I quoted the passage that Jesus gives his followers peace, but not as the world gives peace, you quoted Matthew 10, which has Jesus saying he did not come to bring peace. he came to set brother against brother, etc....

Peace from the world would expect brother and brother not to be set against each other…. So Christ didn't give us his peace at his 1st advent?

No Matthew 10:34 maintains he did not come to sit on David’s throne in his first advent, because his government of ever-increasing peace ends the enmity of brothers.

There shall come forth a shoot from the stump of Jesse, and a branch from his roots shall bear fruit…. and he shall strike the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall kill the wicked…. The jealousy of Ephraim shall depart, and those who harass Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not be jealous of Judah, and Judah shall not harass Ephraim. Isaiah 11:1, 4, 13

The peace he gave the church is a shadow of what his kingdom will establish.

claninja said:
I'm not arguing that the kingdoms "of the world" become the kingdom of God at the end of the age.

The kingdom "comes" when Satan is cast out of heaven in accordance with Revelation 12.

Good, you’re not arguing that the kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of God as of yet, which means your conceding they are still the dragon’s, only to a lesser degree than they were when Christ ascended, in Revelation 12. Christ is still waiting until the kingdoms of the world are become the kingdom of God in Psalms 110, which is what I said. That is what the supersessionists affirmed that I cited in my last post.

claninja said:
So who has higher authority, Satan or Christ, over the world? You didn't answer that question and neither did the supersessionists you quoted.

God has always had greater authority over the world, even when Satan was “allowed” to be prince when Adam fell. This princedom did not end at Christ ascension, although it did suffer a major defeat that enraged him to persecute the woman in Revelation 12, which is another illustration that Satan, through the sea-beast, was allowed to “make war on the saints and to conquer them” (Revelation 13:7).

claninja said:
None of this surmounts my argument:
Was God's presence in the holy place or the most Holy Place? Because Christ has now appeared in the PRESENSE of God.

The veil occupied both and Christ was the antitype of the veil. As the antitype of the veil, he ascended to the presence of the Father and is capable of performing the antitypes of the spring and autumnal festivals in their appointed times. I don’t see how anything you added surmounts that Christ was the antitype of the veil.

keras · Apr 21, 2019

Christians are not the "replacement of the Jews" as the chosen people. But the Bible says that Christians are added into God’s people, by reason of their faith.

It was prophesied:

Genesis 49:10 The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh comes and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
Jeremiah 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, says the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

Jesus came and they rejected Him:

Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The Kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Apostles later confirmed:

Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
Acts 15:14-17, Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, says the Lord, who doeth all these things. KJV

It was prophesied long ago in Amos 9:11-12 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old: That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, says the LORD that doeth this.

Most fail to realize that it was prophesied that those "outside the camp" would become worthy to seek the Lord. Even Jesus touched on this in His parable regarding the wedding feast in Matthew 22:1-14…... For many are called, but few are chosen.

Many Jews claim Jesus never spoke of the Jews as deserving of replacement. When this parable is shared they mock it. But, the parable of the vineyard clearly says the Jews KNEW He was talking about them. It says this in Luke 20:9-19….. What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner? Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them.

Hosea 1:9, 5:5, 6:8, 2:4, 9:15-17 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God. And the pride of Israel doth testify to his face: therefore shall Israel and Ephraim fall in their iniquity; Judah also shall fall with them. They shall go with their flocks and with their herds to seek the Lord; but they shall not find him; he hath withdrawn himself from them. Israel shall cry unto me, My God, we know thee. Israel hath cast off the thing that is good: the enemy shall pursue him. They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off. All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters. Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb. My God will cast them away, because they did not hearken unto him: and they shall be wanderers among the nations.

Romans 9:30-31 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

In other words, shall we now have a problem that the unchosen Gentiles that became chosen and the chosen Israelites chose to become unchosen by blatant apostasy?

Romans 11:1-2 I say then: Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. KJV

Paul makes a good point here. So many people say replacement theology is a lie. But as Paul makes clear in this passage, he never left his Jewish roots. The only difference between him and the lost Jews is that he chose to believe Jesus. So in actuality, God never replaced them, they left Him all on their own and now every Christian has been grafted into the ‘olive tree’ of the righteous Israel of God.
Ref: Nicholas poGm

claninja · Apr 21, 2019

Jerryhuerta said:
Not so, when one accounts for the Shepherd, the Stone of Israel is tied to the event when Ephraim and Manasseh run over the wall in the last days, in Genesis 49.

Jesus appeared in the last days.

Hebrews 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

This along with the evidence of Noah's descendants becoming many nations in a period of around 400 years (genesis 10-11) does not surmount that the 10 northern tribes could become many nations in a period of 700 years, from the Assryian exile to Christ's first advent.

claninja · Apr 21, 2019

Jerryhuerta said:
No Matthew 10:34 maintains he did not come to sit on David’s throne in his first advent, because his government of ever-increasing peace ends the enmity of brothers.

There shall come forth a shoot from the stump of Jesse, and a branch from his roots shall bear fruit…. and he shall strike the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall kill the wicked…. The jealousy of Ephraim shall depart, and those who harass Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not be jealous of Judah, and Judah shall not harass Ephraim. Isaiah 11:1, 4, 13

Fulfilled in Christ. There is no more hostility between Jews and gentiles who are in Christ. For Christ is our eternal peace. The two have been created into one new man.

Ephesians 2:14-19 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,16and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.

Jerryhuerta said:
God has always had greater authority over the world,

Good we areed

Jerryhuerta said:
The veil occupied both and Christ was the antitype of the veil. As the antitype of the veil, he ascended to the presence of the Father and is capable of performing the antitypes of the spring and autumnal festivals in their appointed times. I don’t see how anything you added surmounts that Christ was the antitype of the veil.

You continue to avoid Hebrews 9:24-25 which specifically mentions Jesus entering God's presence and the work of the high priest that was yearly. You then switch to talking about the veil in attempt to steer the conversation away from those points that prove your belief about the day of atonement not yet being fulfilled wrong.

Hebrews 9:24-25 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,

Was God's presence in the holy place or most holy place?

does "the high priest entering the holy places every year" refer to the daily sacrifices or day of atonement?

Jerryhuerta · Apr 21, 2019

claninja said:
Jesus appeared in the last days.

Hebrews 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

This along with the evidence of Noah's descendants becoming many nations in a period of around 400 years (genesis 10-11) does not surmount that the 10 northern tribes could become many nations in a period of 700 years, from the Assryian exile to Christ's first advent.

You're still failing to account for Genesis 49:1, 22-24.

Jerryhuerta · Apr 21, 2019

claninja said:
Fulfilled in Christ. There is no more hostility between Jews and gentiles who are in Christ. For Christ is our eternal peace. The two have been created into one new man.

Ephesians 2:14-19 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,16and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.

Good we areed

You continue to avoid Hebrews 9:24-25 which specifically mentions Jesus entering God's presence and the work of the high priest that was yearly. You then switch to talking about the veil in attempt to steer the conversation away from those points that prove your belief about the day of atonement not yet being fulfilled wrong.

Hebrews 9:24-25 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,

Was God's presence in the holy place or most holy place?

does "the high priest entering the holy places every year" refer to the daily sacrifices or day of atonement?

You're failing to account for Isaiah 11:1, 4, 13. The enmity between Ephraim and Judah ends when Christ shall “strike the earth with the rod of his mouth,” which is the intent of his kingdom. Jeremiah 23:5-6. His proclamation he did not come to send peace is actually a revelation he did not come to establish his kingdom at the first advent.

As the antitype of the veil, Christ is able to ministers in the first and second compartments, actually ending the application of the veil. He is able to minister the antitype of the autumnal festivals at his return.

claninja · Apr 23, 2019

Jerryhuerta said:
You're still failing to account for Genesis 49:1, 22-24.

How so?

The prophesies given by Jacob are concerning the last days:
Genesis 49:1 Then Jacob called his sons and said, “Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you what shall happen to you in the last days.

Jesus appeared in the last days:
Hebrews 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself

Jacob prophesied that the shepherd and stone of Israel would come from Israel in the last days:

Genesis 49:24 yet his bow remained unmoved;his armsf were made agile by the hands of the Mighty One of Jacob (from there is the Shepherd, the Stone of Israel),

Jesus is the good shepherd and stone that came from Israel in the last days

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep
Acts 4:11 This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone

Jacob prophesies that Joseph will be fruitful, with branches running over the wall in the last days
Genesis 49:22 Joseph is a fruitful bough, a fruitful bough by a spring; his branches run over the wall

Israel did become a large nation, but the 10 northern tribes became barren upon God's divorce. They were scattered and became "not my people".

Isaiah 54:1 Sing, O barren one, who did not bear; break forth into singing and cry aloud, you who have not been in labor! For the children of the desolate one will be more than the children of her who is married,” says the Lord.

Over a period of 700 years from the Assyrian exile to the 1st advent, Ephraim/Joseph/10 northern tribes would mix genetically, culturally, and religiously with other nations. If the descendants of noah became many nations in a period of 400 years, then it is not untenable that the descendants of Ephraim would become many nations in a longer period of 700 years.

The body of Christ (Jew and Gentile) under the new covenant fulfills Jacobs offspring being fruitful and running over the wall in the last days.
Galatians 4:26-27 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. For it is written, “Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear; break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor! For the children of the desolate one will be more than those of the one who has a husband.”

claninja · Apr 23, 2019

Jerryhuerta said:
You're failing to account for Isaiah 11:1, 4, 13. The enmity between Ephraim and Judah ends when Christ shall “strike the earth with the rod of his mouth,” which is the intent of his kingdom.

The enmity between the two ended with the cross.

Ephesians 2:15-16 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.

Notice Christ already "received" (perfect tense) the authority to shepherd the nations with a rod of iron. Those who conquer until the end will be given the authority AS Christ has received (perfect tense completed ongoing action) that authority from the Father.

Revelation 2:26-27 The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations, and he will shepherd them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father.

Jerryhuerta said:
As the antitype of the veil, Christ is able to ministers in the first and second compartments, actually ending the application of the veil.

So then you agree, holy places is more appropriate then holy place, as Christ ministers in BOTH compartments.

Jerryhuerta said:
He is able to minister the antitype of the autumnal festivals at his return.

So Jesus is only able to minister in heaven (antitype) when he returns? I disagree. Christ entered heaven (antitype), into the presence of God, which the holy places made with hands (type) were only copies of, to be our high priest in the presence of God, thus fulfilling the day of atonement.

Notice "copies" is a plural adjective, not singular. Thus the "holy places" is more appropriate as plural and not singular.

Hebrews 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf

Additionally, you continue to side step the author of Hebrews mentioning the "high priest" entering the holy places "yearly", which clearly points to the day of atonement and refuting your belief that the day of atonement (one of the autumnal feasts) is yet fulfilled.

Hebrews 9:24-25 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own

Jerryhuerta · Apr 23, 2019

claninja said:
How so?

The prophesies given by Jacob are concerning the last days:
Genesis 49:1 Then Jacob called his sons and said, “Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you what shall happen to you in the last days.

Jesus appeared in the last days:
Hebrews 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself

Jacob prophesied that the shepherd and stone of Israel would come from Israel in the last days:

Genesis 49:24 yet his bow remained unmoved;his armsf were made agile by the hands of the Mighty One of Jacob (from there is the Shepherd, the Stone of Israel),

Jesus is the good shepherd and stone that came from Israel in the last days

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep
Acts 4:11 This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone

Jacob prophesies that Joseph will be fruitful, with branches running over the wall in the last days
Genesis 49:22 Joseph is a fruitful bough, a fruitful bough by a spring; his branches run over the wall

Israel did become a large nation, but the 10 northern tribes became barren upon God's divorce. They were scattered and became "not my people".

Isaiah 54:1 Sing, O barren one, who did not bear; break forth into singing and cry aloud, you who have not been in labor! For the children of the desolate one will be more than the children of her who is married,” says the Lord.

Over a period of 700 years from the Assyrian exile to the 1st advent, Ephraim/Joseph/10 northern tribes would mix genetically, culturally, and religiously with other nations. If the descendants of noah became many nations in a period of 400 years, then it is not untenable that the descendants of Ephraim would become many nations in a longer period of 700 years.

The body of Christ (Jew and Gentile) under the new covenant fulfills Jacobs offspring being fruitful and running over the wall in the last days.
Galatians 4:26-27 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. For it is written, “Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear; break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor! For the children of the desolate one will be more than those of the one who has a husband.”

Genesis 49:1, 22-24 maintains that Christ, the shepherd and the stone, is fixed to the phenomenon when Ephraim and Manasseh run over the wall, which is the intra-advent era in which we live.

Jerryhuerta · Apr 23, 2019

claninja said:
The enmity between the two ended with the cross.

Ephesians 2:15-16 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.

Notice Christ already "received" (perfect tense) the authority to shepherd the nations with a rod of iron. Those who conquer until the end will be given the authority AS Christ has received (perfect tense completed ongoing action) that authority from the Father.

Revelation 2:26-27 The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations, and he will shepherd them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father.

So then you agree, holy places is more appropriate then holy place, as Christ ministers in BOTH compartments.

So Jesus is only able to minister in heaven (antitype) when he returns? I disagree. Christ entered heaven (antitype), into the presence of God, which the holy places made with hands (type) were only copies of, to be our high priest in the presence of God, thus fulfilling the day of atonement.

Notice "copies" is a plural adjective, not singular. Thus the "holy places" is more appropriate as plural and not singular.

Hebrews 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf

Additionally, you continue to side step the author of Hebrews mentioning the "high priest" entering the holy places "yearly", which clearly points to the day of atonement and refuting your belief that the day of atonement (one of the autumnal feasts) is yet fulfilled.

Hebrews 9:24-25 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own

Ephesians 2 pertains to the enmity between the biological descendants of Israel and the gentiles.

Zechariah 11 pertains to the first advent and the enmity between the biological descendants of Judah and Ephraim.

In one month I destroyed the three shepherds. But I became impatient with them, and they also detested me. So I said, "I will not be your shepherd. What is to die, let it die. What is to be destroyed, let it be destroyed. And let those who are left devour the flesh of one another." And I took my staff Favor, and I broke it, annulling the covenant that I had made with all the peoples. So it was annulled on that day, and the sheep traders, who were watching me, knew that it was the word of the LORD. Then I said to them, "If it seems good to you, give me my wages; but if not, keep them." And they weighed out as my wages thirty pieces of silver. Then the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"---the lordly price at which I was priced by them. So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD, to the potter. Then I broke my second staff Union, annulling the brotherhood between Judah and Israel. Zechariah 11:8-14 ESV

As stated previously, Zechariah was written after the return from Babylon, which substantiates these events were first advent phenomena. Just as in Isaiah 49:7 prophesied, the nation Judah detested or abhorred Christ, just as in verse 8, above. The Old covenant was annulled, and the wages of thirty pieces of silver were paid at the first advent. And verse 14 makes it clear the brotherhood between Judah and Israel was annulled, which was actually supported by your testimony concerning Zechariah 10:8-9 when you admitted that Ephraim was gathered in Christ to proclaim the great commission, which set them at enmity with the Jews.

As to Revelation 2:26-27, it is common in the Greek aorist that future events are often stated in the present. Besides that, we’ve already established that Satan, through the sea beast,” is allowed to make war with the saints and overcome them, which is not indicative of the Davidic kingdom. And your leaving out the part in Revelation 2:26-27 that the saints must overcome in this age to rule with Christ in the next, which holds Christ’s kingdom is in the age to come.

As to Hebrews 9:24, holy place is what the Greek maintains, which is furthered by 10:20 as Christ is the antitype of the veil. This substantiates that Christ is the mediator, he stands between God and man, as in 1 Timothy 2:5. It is further substantiated by Hebrews 9:27-28 that reveals Christ first appearance was to justify man, put away sin by the sacrifice of himself, which was done year by year in the first compartment. The same verses maintain he appears a second time not to put away sin, but to save his people from their enemies, which is the logical conclusion of judgment and the object of the autumnal antitypes.

claninja · Apr 24, 2019

Jerryhuerta said:
Genesis 49:1, 22-24 maintains that Christ, the shepherd and the stone, is fixed to the phenomenon when Ephraim and Manasseh run over the wall

I agree

Jerryhuerta said:
which is the intra-advent era in which we live.

The good shepherd and the stone came ~2000 years ago in the last days, 700 years after Ephraim's divorce by God and scattering by Assryia

Jerryhuerta · Apr 24, 2019

claninja said:
I agree

The good shepherd and the stone came ~2000 years ago in the last days, 700 years after Ephraim's divorce by God and scattering by Assryia

Are we talking past each other? I believe your position is Ephraim become a company of nations prior to Christ first advent and I'm saying after his first advent. I base my perception on Genesis 49:1, 22-24 that the last days commence with the first advent.

parousia70 · Apr 24, 2019

Jerryhuerta said:
This princedom did not end at Christ ascension, although it did suffer a major defeat

This statement got me curious...

Can you explain this "Major Defeat" you say he suffered?

Everything I'm reading from you seems to indicate He came out 100% unscathed, unhindered, unbound, unencumbered, as "full strength" in his princedom as before...

Hardly paints the picture of a "Major defeat" now does it?

Jerryhuerta · Apr 24, 2019

parousia70 said:
This statement got me curious...

Can you explain this "Major Defeat" you say he suffered?

Everything I'm reading from you seems to indicate He came out 100% unscathed, unhindered, unbound, unencumbered, as "full strength" in his princedom as before...

Hardly paints the picture of a "Major defeat" now does it?

Out of curiosity, what is your discipline, first? Are you Amill, or Post, with preterist leanings?

LittleLambofJesus · Apr 24, 2019

parousia70 said: ↑
This statement got me curious...

Can you explain this "Major Defeat" you say he suffered?

Everything I'm reading from you seems to indicate He came out 100% unscathed, unhindered, unbound, unencumbered, as "full strength" in his princedom as before...

Hardly paints the picture of a "Major defeat" now does it?

Jerryhuerta said:
Out of curiosity, what is your discipline, first? Are you Amill, or Post, with preterist leanings?

Why does that matter?

claninja · Apr 24, 2019

Jerryhuerta said:
Ephesians 2 pertains to the enmity between the biological descendants of Israel and the gentiles.

I agree. It pertains to the killing of the enmity between the the Jews and gentiles.

Ephesians 2:14-16 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,16and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.

Jerryhuerta said:
Zechariah 11 pertains to the first advent and the enmity between the biological descendants of Judah and Ephraim.

I agree, Christ came to bring enmity between family members

Matthew 10:34-36 Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household.

Jerryhuerta said:
As stated previously, Zechariah was written after the return from Babylon, which substantiates these events were first advent phenomena.

I agree

Jerryhuerta said:
Just as in Isaiah 49:7 prophesied, the nation Judah detested or abhorred Christ, just as in verse 8, above.

I agree

Matthew 21:3-5 Then the chief priests and the elders of the people gathered in the palace of the high priest, whose name was Caiaphas, 4and plotted together in order to arrest Jesus by stealth and kill him. 5But they said, “Not during the feast, lest there be an uproar among the people.”

Matthew 21:37-38 Finally he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.’

But not the remnant elect of the kingdom Judah

Romans 11:1-2 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham,a a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew.

Jerryhuerta said:
The Old covenant was annulled, and the wages of thirty pieces of silver were paid at the first advent.

I agree

Matthew 26:14-15 Then one of the twelve, whose name was Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests and said, “What will you give me if I deliver him over to you?” And they paid him thirty pieces of silver.

Jerryhuerta said:
And verse 14 makes it clear the brotherhood between Judah and Israel was annulled

I agree. The Jews persecuted the body of Christ.

Galatians 4:28-29 Now you,f brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now.

Matthew 10:34-36 Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household.

Jerryhuerta said:
when you admitted that Ephraim was gathered in Christ to proclaim the great commission, which set them at enmity with the Jews.

Correct. But my belief, as I have stated multiple times now, is that the 10 northern tribes who were exiled, became as gentiles. They were divorced by God and became "not my people" thus equal with gentiles in regards to the promises and covenants. Over 700 years, from the assyrian exile to the first advent, many from these 10 northern tribes would mix genetically, socially, and religiously with surrounding nations. Many of the northern tribes became gentiles.

This is substantiated by Paul quoting Hosea as fulfilled with the inclusion of the gentiles into the body of Christ.

Romans 9:24-26 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’” “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

Thus by the inclusion of the gentiles into the body of Christ, God fulfills his promises to Ephraim. God fulfills 2 contradicting promises in one incredible act.

How can there be enmity between Judah and Israel.......

Zechariah 11:14 Then I broke my second staff Union, annulling the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.

.....And yet unity between Judah and Israel?

Hosea 1:11 And the children of Judah and the children of Israel shall be gathered together, and they shall appoint for themselves one head

The body of Christ: Jew and Gentile now have peace by being the Israel of God under one head who is Christ in the new covenant. And yet the Jews who rejected Christ persecuted the Israel of God (Christ the head, Jew and Gentile the body).

Jerryhuerta said:
As to Revelation 2:26-27, it is common in the Greek aorist that future events are often stated in the present.

As stated in post #292, it's not an aorist verb, it's a perfect tense verb. Big difference. The action is not just a completed and done action in the past, the action is completed and ongoing.

Christ received the authority and this authority is ongoing.

Jerryhuerta said:
And your leaving out the part in Revelation 2:26-27 that the saints must overcome in this age to rule with Christ in the next, which holds Christ’s kingdom is in the age to come.

Incorrect, not leaving it out. It actually helps my point. Those overcoming (present tense) until the end, Christ will give (future tense) authority over the nations, just as Christ received (perfect tense) authority from the Father.

Christ receiving the authority is completed and ongoing while those who are presently overcoming until the end will receive it in the future.

This is supported by Paul who states that Christ is above ALL rule and authority authority NOT ONLY IN THIS AGE, but ALSO in the age to come.

Ephesians 1:21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come

Jerryhuerta said:
As to Hebrews 9:24, holy place is what the Greek maintains,

You are simply incorrect. "copies" and "true things" are plural, which are describing the "holy places". Thus it is more appropriate for "holy places" to be plural and not singular.

Hebrews 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

Jerryhuerta said:
which is furthered by 10:20 as Christ is the antitype of the veil.

You are simply deflecting. I'm not arguing that Christ isn't the antitype of the veil. The passage we were discussing is hebrews 9, which has the day of atonement fulfilled in Christ.

Jerryhuerta said:
The same verses maintain he appears a second time not to put away sin, but to save his people from their enemies, which is the logical conclusion of judgment and the object of the autumnal antitypes.

Please show where the day of atonement was to save Israel from their enemies and not to atone for sin in order support your opinion.

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