Infant Baptism

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I asked people directly if baptism itself saves the infant..they said it does. That is where the problem resides.
To the extent that it does...that would be the case ONLY if the infant dies before reaching an age of accountability -- being able to choose between right and wrong.

Chosing salvation for another makes them saved. That is the issue.
No. It is not. It is the grace and forgiveness that God imparts to the one who is baptized which keeps them secure while still young.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Ttalkkugjil
Upvote 0

GingerBeer

Cool and refreshing with a kick!
Mar 26, 2017
3,511
1,348
Australia
✟119,825.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Salvation is the acceptance with our mouth and heart that Jesus is Lord, He rose again, and im a sinner..etc⁰


Only i can choose for myself.
None of which an infant can choose.
I am not so sure that salvation is what you said.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Salvation is the acceptance with our mouth and heart that Jesus is Lord, He rose again, and im a sinner..etc

None of which an infant can choose.

That is what the minority of Christians who are of the Baptist tradition would say. So this comes down to which POV about the nature of the sacrament anyone accepts as correct.
 
Upvote 0

Natsumi Lam

Preparer of the Bride
Site Supporter
Jan 31, 2015
1,543
682
✟120,306.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
I'm saying that we all start out life on the highway to hell. I'm saying that God saves infants through baptism. I'm saying that baptism is necessary but it is not absolutely necessary.
So back to where we were. Baptism is a work to accomplish. How can someone else's work to choose baptism for as me, the infant, get me saved? Another's decision and works get me saved?
 
  • Winner
Reactions: JacksBratt
Upvote 0

Natsumi Lam

Preparer of the Bride
Site Supporter
Jan 31, 2015
1,543
682
✟120,306.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
That is what the minority of Christians who are of the Baptist tradition would say. So this comes down to which POV about the nature of the sacrament anyone accepts as correct.
The bible does not support than another can choose salvation for me as an infant resulting in my salvation. Its about biblical support ...not pov.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: JacksBratt
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I thought baptism itself saves...as i have been told.
You were told wrongly. To the extent that Baptism forgives sin, you are safe until you are of age. Thats it. If the person were an adult being baptized, that would be a different discussion.
 
Upvote 0

Thess

Well-Known Member
Oct 31, 2018
756
319
56
Chelan
✟19,864.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
Interesting. That's in Romans 10 (see post 112).

Very cool and helpful (see post 112 - that's awesome - and yes, I'm still a Newbie haha)

For sure, the topic of having a clear conscious is something that seems to over-ride the Law of Moses to uphold the Moral Law that has been written on all of our hearts. Those under the Law of Moses cleared their conscious through animal sacrifices, which God never wanted in the first place, in fact, He became wildly sick of it. Isaiah 1:11 makes it clear that God just wanted us to do what's right and hated the spilt blood of animals, just as He hated the spilt Holy Blood of His Son...but if it weren't for the Blood (Spirit) that Jesus shed on the Cross, then that Blood (Spirit) would not have been given freely.

Clear Consciousness is a Spiritual tool that guides us into rightly living so that we not only protect ourselves, but others as well. Paul talks about this much when it comes to eating meats, etc. He says that he is convinced that nothing in itself is evil (ie, no more "evil fruit"), but that all things are permissible (edit - this obviously needs clarification), it's just that we are to be mastered by NOTHING, otherwise, God is not and cannot be our master. For what has control of us is our master. Let us do ALL THINGS rightly so that God remains our only Master. This means strict obedience (good thing God supplants the Power....otherwise I'd do it on my own and boast....if that were even possible.) :)
 
Last edited:
  • Friendly
Reactions: Halbhh
Upvote 0

Ttalkkugjil

Social Pastor
Mar 6, 2019
1,680
908
Suwon
✟34,572.00
Country
Korea, Republic Of
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Others
So back to where we were. Baptism is a work to accomplish. How can someone elses work to choose baptism for as me, the infant, get me saved? Another's decision and works get me saved?

Baptism is a work done by God. Baptism saves because Jesus saves.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
So back to where we were. Baptism is a work to accomplish.
No, it is not. Receiving any sacrament is allowing God to do something for you, not a meritorious/good deed on the part of the human.
 
Upvote 0

Natsumi Lam

Preparer of the Bride
Site Supporter
Jan 31, 2015
1,543
682
✟120,306.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
To the extent that it does...that would be the case ONLY if the infant dies before reaching an age of accountability -- being able to choose between right and wrong.


No. It is not. It is the grace and forgiveness that God imparts to the one who is baptized which keeps them secure while still young.
What if the baby is not baptized...do they parish?
 
  • Winner
Reactions: JacksBratt
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Natsumi Lam

Preparer of the Bride
Site Supporter
Jan 31, 2015
1,543
682
✟120,306.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
No, it is not. Receiving any sacrament is allowing God to do something for you, not a meritorious/good deed on the part of the human.
The parent is forcing the will of a parent and salvation onto a child. This does not save.

Salvation from sins and the choice to accept Jesus is with the heart and mouth. No one can choose that for you.

Romans 10: 9

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
The bible does not support than another can choose salvation for me as an infant resulting in my salvation. Its about biblical support ...not pov.
As I said before...some Christians believe about baptism the way you apparently do. However, most believe otherwise.

If you want to outline what your belief is, that's fine.

When you mischaracterize the view of the sacrament as it is understood by other Christians, however, I hope and assume that getting the correct information about that is something that you and other readers want to have.

It does not require anyone to change a thing about his or her own beliefs simply to be put in the know about what the opposite view is.
 
Upvote 0

Halbhh

Everything You say is Life to me
Site Supporter
Mar 17, 2015
17,193
9,201
catholic -- embracing all Christians
✟1,158,778.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The parent is forcing the will of a parent and salvation onto a child. This does not save.

Salvation from sins and the choice to accept Jesus is with the heart and mouth. No one can choose that for you.

Romans 10: 9

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

None think it is the parent's action that saves an infant, but God instead.

About adults, as you point to here, see also post 132 to help connect, to better get across the language barrier, the different ways of saying the same things. Here's a link:
Infant Baptism
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
What if the baby is not baptized...do they parish?
We do not know what God does in that case. Most churches feel that God will hold these people in his arms somehow.

Apparently, and judging from the silence on this issue that scripture provides, it was not something God saw fit to reveal to us when he inspired the writers of Holy Scripture.
 
Upvote 0

Halbhh

Everything You say is Life to me
Site Supporter
Mar 17, 2015
17,193
9,201
catholic -- embracing all Christians
✟1,158,778.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
This thread is very interesting, and also has a lot of language word-use barriers to understanding each other too.

2 ways: Different churches habitually using wordings that are different, but talking about the same thing; 2nd, additional concepts also spoken about in very church specific wordings that are very much like another dialect, and hard to decipher. Example: 'communion' having more than only one usage/meaning.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Well, that is the nature of the language, isn't it? ;) --whether we are talking about religion or anything else.

But when it gets too elusive, I would suggest that the reader simply pose a question in reply, asking for clarification of whatever it was.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Halbhh
Upvote 0

Thess

Well-Known Member
Oct 31, 2018
756
319
56
Chelan
✟19,864.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
This thread is very interesting, and also has a lot of language word-use barriers to understanding each other too.

Great call. We need to do a better job of trying to understand each, but then again, that all depends on whether a person has the ACTUAL Holy Spirit within them....and those that do, listen to all people. We don't have to believe everyone, but those with the Spirit WILL listen. I listen and so do you. :)
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Halbhh
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

JacksBratt

Searching for Truth
Site Supporter
Jul 5, 2014
16,282
6,485
62
✟570,686.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
We can't save someone (or rather...well, we can participate in a way: see last verse below) -- only God can save, and we know the way is through Christ....

Before those verses about others working for our benefit (to call on or help bring God's grace) in particular, let's look at what you can do for others in a different way, since infant baptism is a question where we have to infer ideas about.

So, consider whether others can be a part of the process:

14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ. 18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:

“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.”

19 Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says,
“I will make you envious by those who are not a nation;
I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding.”

20 And Isaiah boldly says,
“I was found by those who did not seek me;
I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.”

21 But concerning Israel he says,
“All day long I have held out my hands
to a disobedient and obstinate people.”

1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. ...
------

Ok, I tend to want to just keep reading, but this helps us notice the really interesting thing that for those old enough to hear the word, during this life, someone has to bring it to them.... Or alternatively, if someone did not bring it to them, still there can be a chance:
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. e It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
--------
Hallelujah.

And we notice in verse 19 He went even to the dead, that they might have a chance to turn and be saved....

So, here in this life, others can indeed be part of the action of God, by His Grace, such as for instance to tell the word of Christ!

-----------

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” (Acts chapter 2)

1 Corinthians 7:16 How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?

But I'd not worry for a child that dies without having been baptized, because consider 1 Peter chapter 3, as above. God will not be blocked by the mere decision of a parent whether to baptize their infant, or the failure to do so. God will decide, in His mercy and Grace, not dependent on us, to save.
All great scriptures... But I have never seen one that justifies the belief that I can save anyone... not even myself. My actions may cause some to stumble and others to seek Christ.. But only Christ can save and nothing I do, even though I wish I could... can save anyone.... not even myself.
 
Upvote 0