Infant Baptism

Natsumi Lam said:

Hi Family,

Can you please explain to me the logic and reasoning behind infant baptism?

~Natsumi Lam~

Click to expand...

This is one of the verses used to identify the doctrine of infant baptism:

John 3:3-7, “Jesus answered and said to him, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.' Nicodemus said to Him, 'How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?' Jesus answered, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again."

Now IMHO, I do not believe Jesus was talking about "baptism in water" when He was addressing Nicodemus. In fact we can go back to the thief on the cross which most scholars believe did not
go through the ritual of water baptism yet he, through faith, was welcomed into the Kingdom of God.
Though there is the concept of "original sin" carried by all humans through the work of two people, it is not simply washed away through water. It is "faith". The Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism. So there are no verses in scripture that support water baptism without first having "faith".

Natsumi Lam said:

So free will is out the door because you were baptized? You are saved by anothor person doing works?

Click to expand...

I was saved (and am still being saved) by God.

archer75 said:

Who are these people, and how do they understand salvation?

There is a simple rule to follow if you have a child and don't want to baptize it: don't baptize it. I mean this. There is literally no one forcing you to do so. If you truly believe that the practice has been wrong since the beginning...don't do it.

Click to expand...

That's an interesting point. Paul makes it clear that having a "clear conscious" is very important and something that we should all consider a bit more deeply. This topic is coming up in a writing of mine....I have yet to explore it deeply and can't wait. Living with a Clear Conscious is a biblical concept that few, here, speak of....and we need to.

Natsumi Lam said:

The parent can chose the vehical to drive the infant in but cant make him the driver.

Click to expand...

That does not matter, because it is God's decision regarding the infant that matters. Both John the Baptist and Judas Iscariot, as they were Jews, were circumcised into the Old Covenant. The Baptist had faith in His heart even from within his mother's womb and so "leaped for joy" at the sound of Mary's (Theotokos) voice. Judas got to follow and be taught by the Lord, but in the end was found to be faithless. If Jesus Himself received Baptism in the Jordan, do you suppose that His own disciples (including Judas) were not Baptized as well?

If we baptize our children, we are not deciding anything, except to initiate them into the Life of our Christian family and Church.

FenderTL5 said:

see my post 93, just above yours.

Click to expand...

Ah okay, well I'm happy to hear we both do not believe in Original sin.

Natsumi Lam said:

You were saved by another persons works?

Click to expand...

Hmm... did you actually read what I just posted? "I was saved (and am still being saved) by God. "

Natsumi Lam said:

I asked people directly if baptism itself saves the infant..they said it does. That is where the problem resides. Chosing salvation for another makes them saved. That is the issue.

Click to expand...

If you had asked me if the rite of Baptism itself saves, I'd have said "No", because Baptism initiates us into the New Covenant in Christ's blood, but only in ongoing Communion (which is also a holy rite), by faithful repentance, is anyone saved.

Natsumi Lam said:

I thought baptism itself saves...as i have been told.

Click to expand...

If you had asked me if the rite of Baptism itself saves, I'd have said "No", because Baptism initiates us into the New Covenant in Christ's blood, but only in ongoing Communion (which is also a holy rite), by faithful repentance, is anyone saved.

FenderTL5 said:

Well in fact, no.
Our Tradition does not teach "original sin (which is why I put it in quotes)" the same way that is taught in the west. It would seem that you don't either? That would be unusual for Protestant thought, which is why I asked.
otoh, we do bring children into the New Covenant with baptism, the same way Jews were circumcised (or proselytes were baptized) into the Old Covenant.

Click to expand...

Circumcision is no longer necessary. That was under the Law. That is gone.

Natsumi Lam said:

So free will is out the door because you were baptized? You are saved by anothor person doing works?

Click to expand...

Good question!

To me this is answered by the combination of post 112 and 114.

And 132 is good to see also!

Natsumi Lam said:

I did read that.

Click to expand...

So then you have my answer. The Savior is Jesus.

Ttalkkugjil said:

God can do something for the infant. God can save the infant through baptism. That's how God saved me.

Click to expand...

That's not God saving the infant though baptism...

Are you saying that some poor child... who's parents don't baptize it... is going to hell? Seriously? What now... children have to chose their parents?

Natsumi Lam said:

The problem is not the bringing up. It is the idea that we can push salvation on another and this results in salvation.

Click to expand...

I am beginning to think that you have a very different idea of what salvation means from me.

Thess said:

That's an interesting point. Paul makes it clear that having a "clear conscious" is very important and something that we should all consider a bit more deeply. This topic is coming up in a writing of mine....I have yet to explore it deeply and can't wait. Living with a Clear Conscious is a biblical concept that few, here, speak of....and we need to.

Click to expand...

Interesting. That's in Romans 10 (see post 112).

JacksBratt said:

That's not God saving the infant though baptism...

Are you saying that some poor child... who's parents don't baptize it... is going to hell? Seriously? What now... children have to chose their parents?

Click to expand...

I'm saying that we all start out life on the highway to hell. I'm saying that God saves infants through baptism. I'm saying that baptism is necessary but it is not absolutely necessary.