OSAS....= is Grace

Hi DeepWater, Hello All

Philippians 1:6 (CEV)

"God is the one who began this good work in you,
and I am certain that he won't stop before it is complete
on the day that Christ Jesus returns."



When did this GOOD Work begin?
In Genesis, in the beginning, in the book of beginnings,
where it says:

Genesis 1:31 (CEV)

"God looked at what he had done.
All of it was very good!
Evening came and then morning—that was the sixth day."

God bless,
may all eyes and ears be opened
to the way, the truth and the life, JESUS!

JP

Carl Emerson said:

Well folks, I was told my presentation regarding the sealing of our salvation by the indwelling fear of Him was too long and that was why I got zero response.

So I shortened it to one verse.

Still no response...

What does that tell me?

Jer 32:40

“I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me..."

I am trying to be kind... anyone who has experienced the Fear of God knows that He is not to be meddled with and would never entertain mortal sin.

That was the reason He decided to indwell us - for our own good - with the fear of Him (because our hearts are desperately wicked).

The arguments raging here dissolve into nothing if we agree with this promise so clearly stated in His word.

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Hello Carl, Hi all

Here is a reply for you.
Could Jeramiah be talking about the New Covenant?

Hebrews 8:10-11 (KJV)

""For this is the covenant
that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, saith the Lord;

I will put my laws into their mind,
and write them in their hearts:
and I will be to them a God,
and they shall be to me a people:

And they shall not teach every man his neighbour,
and every man his brother,
saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me,
from the least to the greatest."

Me thinks yes!

Consider this verse please:

Romans 11:30-36 (CEV)

"At one time you Gentiles rejected God.
But now Israel has rejected God,
and you have been shown mercy.

And because of the mercy shown to you,
they will also be shown mercy.

All people have disobeyed God,
and that's why he treats them as prisoners.
But he does this, so that he can have mercy on all of them.

Who can measure the wealth and wisdom and knowledge of God?
Who can understand his decisions or explain what he does?

"Has anyone known the thoughts of the Lord or given him advice?
Has anyone loaned something to the Lord that must be repaid?"

Everything comes from the Lord.
All things were made because of him
and will return to him. Praise the Lord forever! Amen.""


God bless
JP

Kenny'sID said:

That's not what Jesus says:

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

So now what?

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Do you believe that both believers and unbelievers alike are described as those who have done good and will be saved? Do you also believe that both believers (who sins have been washed away by the blood of Christ and stand in the righteousness of God which is by faith) and unbelievers alike are described as those who have done evil and will be condemned?

Kenny'sID said:

This is what you need to address, nothing else. You say we don't have to do good in order to get to heaven, and Jesus says we do have to do good to get to heaven.

Let me try this, do you disagree or agree that is what you both claimed and that Jesus claimed what he did? Just a straight answer please, I realize this is where the spin has to kick in full speed in order to thwart an absolute truth, but I'd rather not waste time with that because absolute truth cannot be thwarted.

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Our good works doesn't get us into heaven.

Titus 3:5 KJV
[5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Why do you ignore the truthsfound in the Epistle to the Romans chap 3:1-23?

What Jesus did was show us that no man could keep the law as required...read the story of the rich young ruler who thought he was keeping the Commandments only to be proven wrong. It ended like this...

Matthew 19:25-26 KJV
[25] When his disciples heard it , they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? [26] But Jesus beheld them , and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

DeepWater said:

Because everything i write gives full credit to God & Christ for Salvation.
Because everything i write, is based exactly on Paul's theology.
Because everything i write, the purpose of it, is to help, and never to harm another believer in Yesuha, and that is why everything i write only helps and never harms a Child of God.
Because what i write, eliminates theological confusion in the heart and mind of anyone who is honest and sincere and wants more Light.

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No one in the history of Christianity agrees with you except for a few early heretical groups and nowadays a few modern heretical groups.

Why did Jesus concern himself with his followers adhering to his commandments if we are not to keep his commandments?

Jhn 14:15 - “If you love Me, keep My commandments

I place no faith in the modern liberal Christianity that you are preaching.

DeepWater said:

I hope everyone had a blessed Easter.
Jesus is risen, and isn't this Good News.

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I did. He is risen indeed! And it is very Good News!

DeepWater said:

So, i wanted to ask you... Have any of you ever heard of OSAS?

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I have. And have defended OSAS at length and frequently on this site. You will likely encounter the usual mob of OSAS opponents shortly. They are an....interesting bunch - as you'll soon discover.

DeepWater said:

Its a "man made" idea, and similar to the word "Trinity", its not found in any Greek Text, or in any Translation of Scripture that make up any New Testament, extant.

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The word "trinity" is an extra-biblical term, but the concept it refers to is not. A trinitarian God is clearly described in Scripture. So, too, with OSAS. The phrase "once saved, always saved" is not found in Scripture but the concept to which the phrase refers certainly is.

DeepWater said:

His love is Grace.

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Well, then, why use two different terms to refer to the very same thing? God's love certainly entails grace (and vice versa) but I don't think agape love and divine grace are identical things. Grace is used in different ways in Scripture: unmerited favor, enabling power, beauty of form or manner, etc. It might be useful to cite particular verses or passages in forming your description of grace.

DeepWater said:

If we consider that Jesus is the heart of God, and when we have seen Jesus, we have seen the Father, then Grace also accurately describes ......Jesus.

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I agree that grace accurately describes Jesus. But to what in him, or about him, does it refer, precisely?

DeepWater said:

and your FAITH, is the one "work" that God requires for you to receive the imputed Righteousness of HIMSELF.
No other work will He accept from you, to save you, and recreate you as "born again" for eternity.

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Faith is not a work. It is not an action one performs, a righteous and meritorious deed one enacts. A man afflicted with a brain tumor who has faith in his brain surgeon to remove the tumor does not work to be free of the tumor. No, he just lies on the operating table, unconscious, and receives the work of the surgeon on his behalf that frees him from the "death sentence" of his brain tumor.

DeepWater said:

So what is it?......What is OSAS?......... well, simply put its God's Grace.
Thats what it is.

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Well, grace is certainly an important part of OSAS, but it isn't, I think, the sum total of the doctrine. OSAS is the idea that salvation is fundamentally and primarily a work of God and that His salvific work in a person cannot be undone by anything any human may do (John 6:44; John 10:27-29; Romans 8:38-39; Hebrews 13:5). OSAS recognizes that a person's justification is by grace, through faith in Christ, totally apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5). Christ's righteousness is imputed to the believer, his righteousness clothes them, and solely on this basis the believer is accepted by God. (Romans 3:24-28; Romans 13:14; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 1:6) And since Christ's perfect righteousness never alters in its perfection, the believer clothed in it and thus accepted by God need never fear that His acceptance with God will be lost.

DeepWater said:

OSAS, is not a "license to sin", as it is portrayed by liars and similar.....not at all.

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Yes, this is the Great Boogeyman of those who oppose OSAS. Though it's a Strawman, it remains popular with the saved-and-lost (SAL), works-salvation crowd.

Most OSAS folks, relieved of the terror of hell and judgment (1 John 4:16-19), find their motivation for obedience to God in a deep, joyful love for Him, not in the fear of salvation lost. In this, they are far more obedient to the First and Great Commandment (Matthew 22:36-38) than the fear-mongering SAL folks.

DeepWater said:

Here is their issue.......... A Legalist, or someone who hates OSAS, does not understand that our Christian Discipleship, is something we do because we ARE saved, and never something we do to try to save ourselves or keep ourselves saved.

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Well, the SAL folk I've encountered do understand the OSAS view you've outlined here, they just don't agree with it. They want to put Self-preservation and Self-effort in the place of love and the perfect, finished work of Christ. They prefer being craven slaves under the hand of a cruel and dangerous divine Master rather than loving children joyfully obeying their Heavenly Father. But this is what happens when believers put Self where Christ ought to be. It isn't enough merely to love Christ; Self must insinuate itself into the mix by way of the motive of fear arising from the desire for Self-preservation. And this is why God rejects fear as a motive for the believer's obedience (1 Corinthians 13:1-3). It is at bottom Self-focused, not Christ-focused.

DeepWater said:

The legalist, has the idea that God started salvation, and they finish it by their lifestyle, and if they get this wrong, or don't do enough, then, God will remove them from the Book of Life, and Jesus will find a way out of their body, and take the Holy Spirit with Him.

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To which thinking the apostle Paul responds,

Galatians 3:2-3
2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

DeepWater said:

God who saves us, keeps us saved, and that is OSAS.......thats what it means.
It means to give full credit to God and Christ for Salvation....Both saving us and keeping us saved, as this is GRACE, and GRACE is OSAS.

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Amen.

DM25 said:

Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

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The Spirit lives in believers' hearts as in her temple, and so the Christians should fear to offer her an insult and so to drive her away.

Foul talk isn't to be thought of lightly Its heard by the Spirit, who feels grieved over such behavior. It's the Spirit's intention that we reach our destination, our souls' redemption.

How can it be possible for us to be so ungrateful as to inflict any insult upon our salvation's Spirit.

DeepWater said:

Jesus agrees with me, as He died to provide you with Salvation.
Keeping commandments, wont save you, and wont keep you saved., tho a legalist has faith that they will.
Jesus's death, proves however, that they wont and can't.
And, Paul agrees with me, as im only explaining what He explained in Galatians.
This is not anything new.
Its the same facts regarding Salvation, that Paul wrote long ago.

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Are you telling me that both Jesus and Paul taught that a person can go on sinning all their lives and still go to heaven when they die?

DeepWater said:

Because everything i write, is based exactly and strictly on Paul's theology.

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Paul also told us to lead holy lives, avoid sinning (a righteous life in other words).

Paul also taught a lot about loving fellow brothers and sisters and love is about action.

Paul mentioned many sins of someone who will not be saved.

I have yet to to actually share my views on this, and I'm not sure how productive it would be to do so anyway. But, this is a topic I have a good amount of experience with beyond just online forums. So here are some of my observations for whatever it's worth:

• I have learned to really, really dislike this particular debate whenever and wherever it happens.

• Just in this particular discussion alone people on both sides have accused the other of some pretty alarming things:
  • Not being saved (forum rules violation too, I believe)
  • false teachers (also violation)
  • not believing the gospel
  • condemning Jesus
  • preaching heresy
  • and some less direct variations of the above.

• Those are some pretty major accusations for one Christian to make against another. And none of it seems very Christ-like to me. Yes, I know Jesus was tough on the pharisees. But the pharisees hated Jesus. What I see here is a bunch of folks who love Jesus but disagree with one another. In fact I see people who are so passionate about Jesus that they would go on an internet forum to passionately debate such things. Stating the above things about anyone who is that passionate about Jesus, helps absolutely nothing, it only hurts. You are causing damage to the Body of Christ... even if you are right. I have seen it first hand:
  • I have had to counsel people who have been around or got caught in the middle of a debate like this. They weren't arguing it themselves, they asked a question and got barraged and caught in the middle of an argument very similar to what we've seen here.
  • These people were genuine, but new in their desire to pursue Christ.
  • The debate, that they got caught in the middle of, effected them so negatively that they walked away from God before they ever even really started. Not because of grace or works or OSAS, but because of the bad taste the debate - the manner in which people conducted themselves - left in their mouths. "If this is what it's like to be a Christian, why would I want that?"
  • Some have actually been what I would call "traumatized" by the experience. You can see it on their faces and hear it in their voice.
  • And those are just the ones that eventually found their way back to church and were brave enough to ask... how many haven't?
  • OSAS doesn't matter if they walk away before the "S"

• Passion is great, but how we say something has just as much effect, if not more, than what we say.

Ttalkkugjil said:

The Spirit lives in believers' hearts as in her temple, and so the Christians should fear to offer her an insult and so to drive her away.

Foul talk isn't to be thought of lightly Its heard by the Spirit, who feels grieved over such behavior. It's the Spirit's intention that we reach our destination, our souls' redemption.

How can it be possible for us to be so ungrateful as to inflict any insult upon our salvation's Spirit.

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To be SEALED by the holy spirit means you can't lose your salvation, that's what scripture says. And the holy spirit is a HE.

HTacianas said:

Are you telling me that both Jesus and Paul taught that a person can go on sinning all their lives and still go to heaven when they die?

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Yes, to get saved it is by faith alone. You are fleshly minded because only those with the flesh think the way you do. "Oh so is the gospel a licence to sin all you want?" You obviously don't have the spirit in you or understand the point. That's your problem. But the answer is we will sin until the day we die whether you want to or not, no one is sinless. That's why we need Jesus. That's the forgiving grace of God. We are saved by faith ALONE, not our works, plain and simple. Both Paul and Jesus taught that. You can't grasp the gospel.

timewerx said:

Paul also told us to lead holy lives, avoid sinning (a righteous life in other words).

Paul also taught a lot about loving fellow brothers and sisters and love is about action.

Paul mentioned many sins of someone who will not be saved.

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Yes we should live holy lives. Not to get saved, but because it's the right thing to do. Salvation is already established, by faith ALONE.

DM25 said:

To be SEALED by the holy spirit means you can't lose your salvation, that's what scripture says. And the holy spirit is a HE.


Yes, to get saved it is by faith alone. You are fleshly minded because only those with the flesh think the way you do. "Oh so is the gospel a licence to sin all you want?" You obviously don't have the spirit in you or understand the point. That's your problem. But the answer is we will sin until the day we die whether you want to or not, no one is sinless. That's why we need Jesus. That's the forgiving grace of God. We are saved by faith ALONE, not our works, plain and simple. Both Paul and Jesus taught that. You can't grasp the gospel.


Yes we should live holy lives. Not to get saved, but because it's the right thing to do. Salvation is already established, by faith ALONE.

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In the future can you please refrain from telling me what I am and how I think. I will thank you for that.

All I keep getting is ...this is foolish. Well one..your talking about OTHERS of which you have no say in what so ever other then telling the WORLD Jesus came died for them so they might have every lasting life.. repent.

Foolish.. yesterday is gone you were never promised tomorrow.. so live in the moment He gave you. Wonder about your salvation? Confess your sins.. MAN is not faithful JESUS IS! He WILL forgive you HE will cleans you from ALL unrighteousness. This gift this new man that a GOD created.. its not some simple choice as in will I go left or right.. something NEW was made.

So.. stop trying to control others. You work out your own salvation. And get over the fact YOUR NOT RIGHT only HE is. As long as you do this.. NOTHING will eve change. You will ONLY see and judge the flesh. You will never see the heart.. you will NEVER look in HIS books.. and no one from what I read is blotted out of the LAMBS book. I cant find it.

Sheep and goats.. some were NEVER saved. Jesus can not lie. "I never knew you". Right now.. the Father KNOWS YOU! All heaven knows you..if you know Jesus as lord.

The only ones that told me I can lose my salvation was man and the enemy. Never once has God or the sweet sweet Holy Spirit or Christ told me this. And I do follow osas or I can lose my salvation. Who thinks this? Who would question GOD? John 3;16 Rom 10 9-10. Hello? Sorry.. NO ONE will ever say about anyone "I KNEW they were never saved". For.. that would mean.. A GOD just lost HIS creation forever.. forever...

Romans 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

We don't maintain our salvation. There is nothing complicated about salvation. It is us putting our trust in Christ and believing in him. We put our soul and our eternity into the hands of Jesus. His obedience and sinless life and his life, death, and resurrection saves us. It's all what Jesus did. Nothing that we do, the focus in not on self it is on him. We are saved by believing God. When we have the holy spirit we will walk in confidence and security. Someone who doesn't believe in OSAS can't do that, can they? They don't have security. It is quite a sad life, and worse when they get surprised on judgement day that they won't be going to heaven. This is very serious stuff.

HTacianas said:

Are you telling me that both Jesus and Paul taught that a person can go on sinning all their lives and still go to heaven when they die?

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The Chasm between our 'righteousness' and His holiness is immense.
No one attains the perfection of Jesus in this life - we all fall short every instant...

Our righteousness is as filthy rags, only His imputed righteousness has any standing.
Anyone claiming they have lived exactly as Jesus did, even for an instant, is self deceived.

Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from this body of death?

Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

There is your answer... Romans 7