Infant Baptism

JacksBratt · Apr 23, 2019

Gracia Singh said:
Well, John the Baptist leapt in the womb of his mother. Just at the sound of Mary's voice, who carried within her Christ.

Only because Luke 1:15. He was filled with the Holy Spirit before he was born.... a one time for any human ever.. We are not.

You cannot sprinkle water on a babies head and then rest assured that they are going to heaven. It is a false sense of security.

Every human must grow to a state of mental maturity where they can understand and comprehend that they are sinners and need salvation.

If they never reach a state, mentally, in which they can comprehend this... then they are saved by grace.

Only those that have the mental capacity, to understand their sinful and damned state, will be held accountable.

When a person reaches this level of mental capacity, each and every human will, at some point, make the decision to accept or deny Christ.

Deny Him and you will not have eternal life.

Accept Him and His gift of salvation and you will have eternal life.

An infant will never be condemned to eternal death by a loving gracious God...

How many people, in my small circle, have left the church or have a negative view of Christian beliefs due to them being told that "if you don't baptize your baby... it will go to hell".... or "Limbo" or some other God forsaken place of myth.

Pavel Mosko · Apr 23, 2019

Natsumi Lam said:
What if the infant has not been given faith? Or are you saying forced baptism is essentially forced faith?

It is not scripturally sound to say someone else can choose you faith in Christ for you to be saved.

Your wrong, in Judaism there was an age of accountability. Until the child reached that age (bar mitzoh) age the child was under the covering of the parents. The best example of this was the circumcision scene of Exodus. the child never asked to be circumcised but the parents did it and saved him from the angel of death.

8 Bible verses about Age Of Accountability

1 Corinthians 10
I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud, and that they all passed through the sea. 2They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.

Proverbs 22:6
Train up a child in the way he should go,
And when he is old he will not depart from it.

FenderTL5 · Apr 23, 2019

JacksBratt said:
Only those that have the mental capacity, to understand their sinful and damned state, will be held accountable...

You seem to be saying "original sin" is learned and not passed from Adam?

Daniel9v9 · Apr 23, 2019

Baptism is God's grace. Who are we to hinder children God's grace?

Pavel Mosko · Apr 23, 2019

Natsumi Lam said:
So what if someone is not baptized? Do they have free will and infants who grow up do not?

Is forced baptism forced faith? " You are saved no matter what when you get older" "You dont have a choice to either accept Christ or not for your salvation"

Your questions are absurd. Here's a hint, to use the Socratic method it helps that you actually have thoroughly mastered the subject matter before you feign complete ignorance by asking questions.

Here's some questions for you.. Where in the Bible does it say you need to have a developed intellect to be saved? Why did Jesus use little children as models of faith in the New Testament if He really didn't mean it?

archer75 · Apr 23, 2019

Who said baptism assured us that the person baptized went to heaven? We do infant baptism in my confession, but we don't teach that.

Ttalkkugjil · Apr 23, 2019

Natsumi Lam said:
How do we bring an infant to Christ through baptism if choosing Christ must come down to our own decision and free will?

God has chosen the infant.

TuxAme · Apr 23, 2019

What do you want to know? Do you want to know how the rejection of infant baptism is a man made doctrine finding its roots in the "reformation"? How infant baptism was universally accepted by all of Christendom until then?

Or do you want to know about baptism as the fulfillment of circumcision, and thus why it is only fitting that the youngest among us continue to be welcomed into God's Covenant?

Or- speaking of covenant- perhaps instead you desire to know about how His Covenant has included infants for as long as circumcision has marked one's entrance into it, and as such, God has welcomed these young ones for millennia, and He has not broken His promise to include them?

Pavel Mosko · Apr 23, 2019

Natsumi Lam said:
What if the infant has not been given faith? Or are you saying forced baptism is essentially forced faith?

It is not scripturally sound to say someone else can choose you faith in Christ for you to be saved.

The Bible sometimes uses the term mysterion (mystery) to describe faith. I am sorry that your Enlightenment Era theology keeps you from grasping that concept.

Natsumi Lam · Apr 23, 2019

GingerBeer said:
Baptism does not wash away free will so infants and adults alike have as free a will after baptism as they did before.

Baptism saves but baptism does not force anyone to remain a Christian and experience teaches that many who are baptised may turn away from Christianity and embrace atheism, agnosticism, some other religion or some variety of Christianity that is widely considered aberrant.

Since you believe baptism saves...isnt it forcing salvation on the infant? How do they have free will if forced baptism is forced salvation to you?

Natsumi Lam · Apr 23, 2019

GingerBeer said:
Baptism does not wash away free will so infants and adults alike have as free a will after baptism as they did before.

Baptism saves but baptism does not force anyone to remain a Christian and experience teaches that many who are baptised may turn away from Christianity and embrace atheism, agnosticism, some other religion or some variety of Christianity that is widely considered aberrant.

Didnt it force someone to be saved and be a christian in the first place?

Isnt it the adult that is making the salvation decision for another person ...the infant in the first place?

The bible doesnt support that one person can make another person saved. This takes away free will. Each person has to choose Christ for themselves... an infant cant choose.

Natsumi Lam · Apr 23, 2019

Pavel Mosko said:
The Bible sometimes uses the term mysterion (mystery) to describe faith. I am sorry that your Enlightenment Era theology keeps you from grasping that concept.

If tradition is placed over Truth...you are bound to trip up. ~Natsumi Lam

Natsumi Lam · Apr 23, 2019

TuxAme said:
What do you want to know? Do you want to know how the rejection of infant baptism is a man made doctrine finding its roots in the "reformation"? How infant baptism was universally accepted by all of Christendom until then?

Or do you want to know about baptism as the fulfillment of circumcision, and thus why it is only fitting that the youngest among us continue to be welcomed into God's Covenant?

Or- speaking of covenant- perhaps instead you desire to know about how His Covenant has included infants for as long as circumcision has marked one's entrance into it, and as such, God has welcomed these young ones for millennia, and He has not broken His promise to include them?

All the above with biblical support.

truefiction1 · Apr 23, 2019

Natsumi Lam said:
Hi Family,

Can you please explain to me the logic and reasoning behind infant baptism?

~Natsumi Lam~

Listen to this podcast about the New Covenant relationship if you ever get the initiative:

Three Aspects of Covenant - All Saints Homilies | Ancient Faith Ministries

This should about cover it.

Halbhh · Apr 23, 2019

Natsumi Lam said:
Is there a bible verse that supports this? The infant is being saved by another's decision?

Did someone answer this also yet? (I'm not advocating infant baptism. Did someone already point out it flowed as the inevitable outcome of the idea/doctrine of 'original sin' -- that we inherit sin from Adam, so thus are supposed to be already sinful (in contrast to the very different having a fallen nature!) as an infant (so that the famous Psalm 51 with (what I see as clear) hyperbole is now to instead be taken as only literal)?

Ok, I'm sure I wrote badly.

Infant baptism flowed from the idea of original sin as not being simply sin entering the world, us in a fallen nature, but instead as actually inherited, so that an infant would already be sinning (and thus the famous psalm 51 verse about sinning inside the womb already, the psalm where David is putting his face in the dust, repenting from huge sins, is to taken perhaps as literal instead of hyperbolic).

And the verses supporting the idea that family can help (or gain God's grace) to save others in their family are in the New Testament. Does anyone need the verses?

Ttalkkugjil · Apr 23, 2019

Pavel Mosko said:
1 Corinthians 10
I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud, and that they all passed through the sea. 2They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.

From the total of adult Israelites that left Egypt only two entered the Promised Land.

So the lesson should be heeded, "I don't want you to stay in ignorance, friends, that our parents all were under the cloud and passed through the sea." Paul speaks of "our parents," so identifying the NT Church with Israel.

Paul states that they all received their baptism unto Moses in the cloud and sea. The cloud and sea together became the elements by which Israel's children were cleansed to God, separated as the covenant's people.

So the cloud and sea were types of the NT sacrament of Baptism. They were God's seals and God's promises' pledges, as the Sacraments are in truth today.

Through the cloud and sea God saved His people from Pharaoh and led them forth to freedom. So God, through Baptism, saves us from Satan and transfers us into God's kingdom, to be God's children.

Israel's children entered into fellowship with Moses, as the manifestations' mediator. They took upon themselves the obligation to follow him as the leader given them by God, even as a believer baptized unto Jesus makes him their life's Leader.

archer75 · Apr 23, 2019

Halbhh said:
Did someone answer this also yet? (I'm not advocating infant baptism. Did someone already point out it flowed as the inevitable outcome of the idea/doctrine of 'original sin' -- that we inherit sin from Adam, so thus are (incredibly) already sinful as an infant (so that the famous Psalm 51 with (what I see as clear) hyperbole is now to instead be taken as only literal).

We don't teach this. Rather than the Roman Catholic notion of a "stain" or "guilt" present at the beginning of a human life, we teach that humans inherit an inclination to poor behavior.

truefiction1 · Apr 23, 2019

Natsumi Lam said:
How do we bring an infant to Christ through baptism if choosing Christ must come down to our own decision and free will?

This question shows that you are placing way more emphasis and value on the mind and practically none on the heart, whereas it's the heart that is where God desires to dwell within His children (Ephesians 3:17) Children's hearts are capable of believing and bearing God's presence.

Belief arises from the heart, not in the mind (Psalms 14:1).

Natsumi Lam · Apr 23, 2019

Ttalkkugjil said:
From the total of adult Israelites that left Egypt only two entered the Promised Land.

So the lesson should be heeded, "I don't want you to stay in ignorance, friends, that our parents all were under the cloud and passed through the sea." Paul speaks of "our parents," so identifying the NT Church with Israel.

Paul states that they all received their baptism unto Moses in the cloud and sea. The cloud and sea together became the elements by which Israel's children were cleansed to God, separated as the covenant's people.

So the cloud and sea were types of the NT sacrament of Baptism. They were God's seals and God's promises' pledges, as the Sacraments are in truth today.

Through the cloud and sea God saved His people from Pharaoh and led them forth to freedom. So God, through Baptism, saves us from Satan and transfers us into God's kingdom, to be God's children.

Israel's children entered into fellowship with Moses, as the manifestations' mediator. They took upon themselves the obligation to follow him as the leader given them by God, even as a believer baptized unto Jesus makes him their life's Leader.

Doesnt seem to support that an adult has the biblical right to choose salvation or force salvation on another.

Natsumi Lam · Apr 23, 2019

truefiction1 said:
This question shows that you are placing way more emphasis and value on the mind and practically none on the heart, whereas it's the heart that is where God desires to dwell within His children (Ephesians 3:17) Children's hearts are capable of believing and bearing God's presence.

Belief arises from the heart, not in the mind (Psalms 14:1).

The heart of a baby? How can you guage a baby's heart? How can you tell or confirm if an infant heart is capable?

Infant Baptism

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