Is it impossible to lose your salvation?

Dorothy Mae

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In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith (which is like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree) or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead.
What is the difference between “faith not accompanied by evidential works is dead” and
“faith is dead unless it produces works?”
If someone merely says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14)
So authentic faith produces works, right?
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Yet no matter how many times we have this discussion, we never actually discuss works.
Those who don’t want to have to do any avoid the details it seems. The word seems to be almost odious. Some think loving God is a “work.” I asked them if they have to obey the command to love God and the response wasn’t positive. Commands are “works” .... even that one.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself." (Matthew 22:39)

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Elsewhere, in Romans 13:10, the apostle Paul said, "Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
One reads this and wonders why such “works” are almost repugnant to those who want their salvation sans any requirements to help anyone.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Oh certainly, but dead works get you no where also.
“Dead works” helping others is better than doing nothing or waiting for God to change the heart, as far as the recipients of the help are concerned. A thirsty man doesn’t really care if the one providing water is doing another “dead” work. Just a thought.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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According to the scriptures I don’t believe anyone will be removed from the book of life. The book of life was written before creation which means it could only be written according to God’s foreknowledge. So it wouldn’t make any sense to add someone’s name to the book of life before creation then remove their name also before creation. I don’t see any verses that actually say that someone’s name can or will be removed from the book of life. I only see verses that people use to support the assumption that it is possible but nothing definitive. Personally I believe the names were written on the contingency of them abiding and enduring to the end.
The book of life does not have to have been written according to God’s foreknowledge. You assume names are there. What if the book was before the foundation of the world but blank pages?
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Peter lost his salvation? Show me the quote.
Jesus says they would all fall away. Do you think one can fall away from the faith, deny Jesus before men cursing and swearing and they are going to heaven anyway?
You got a second time event?
The infling of the Holy Spirit didn’t end with that day. Millions have been so filled. And yes, I know of an incident where tongues of fire appeared.
In the next chapter the lamp stand is blazing before the throne.
The lamp of the Ephesians??? Where? (There is more than one lamp stand, but Jesus took theirs away as threatened.)
A conclusion you come to without any reference to the text.
Do I need to copy the scriptures without your heavily adding to it?
I honestly have no idea what your talking about and I'm not sure you do.
I hear of lofty claims where believers grab high sounding praises to describe themselves and don’t expect a minute of their lives to have to live it. They claim the mind of christ, for example, with thoughts that Christ would never have entertained. Name it, claim it.
And the claims that supposedly describe their character “by faith” are astounding. Truth is no restriction.
That's not the problem I'm seeing, the problem is that theology is being pumped into the church via seminaries that are riddled with liberal theology. Never hearing the gospel is a pretty good indication the ministry has strayed from it's mission.
I know churches that preach the gospel most every sunday. Baby immature christians who know of nothing else. They don’t believe God to forgive their neighbor but claim the nature of christ lives in them.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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If they loved Christ they would have loved his church, the didn't. One of the things that gets lost in the Romans Road to salvation crowd it's that many are called, few are chosen. So much emphasis put on your choice in salvation, your performance, your works of righteousness, God doesn't even get honorable mention. You can choose God all day long but it's meaningless until he chooses you.
No one comes to Him unless the Father calls him. Anyone choosing God all day long is miles ahead of the average christian and God chose him long ago.

I knows it is comforting to think people actually obeying the living God are doing dead works, but it’s not only not true, they are enjoying an initimacy with God those who think works are just optional extras for rewards later will never know. Those who obey God experience God dwelling in them the disobedient never know. The degree of infilling of the Holy Spirit is based on Holiness, ours, not his. (Lest some start frothing at the mouth, “holiness” is simply doing what God wants a man to do in real life with his real mouth or hands or feet. Nothing more and nothing less. It doesn’t have to 100% but it can’t be 0%.)
 
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BNR32FAN

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The book of life does not have to have been written according to God’s foreknowledge. You assume names are there. What if the book was before the foundation of the world but blank pages?

According to Revelation 13:8 and 17:8 the names were written before the foundation of the world.

“All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.”
‭‭REVELATION‬ ‭13:8‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“"The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.”
‭‭REVELATION‬ ‭17:8‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Ephesians 1:4 also shows that we were chosen before creation.

“just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love”
‭‭EPHESIANS‬ ‭1:4‬ ‭NASB‬‬
 
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Dorothy Mae

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According to Revelation 13:8 and 17:8 the names were written before the foundation of the world.
No, the lamb was slain from the foundstion of the world. I know the theology that emphasizes the salvation but the Bible emphasizes the lamb.
“All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.”
‭‭REVELATION‬ ‭13:8‬ ‭NASB‬‬
Poor biased translation. The greek has that phrase with the Lamb,
“"The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.”
‭‭REVELATION‬ ‭17:8‬ ‭NASB‬‬
The book was there. The names were not. That’s from a false theology. Jesus never mentioned names already written.
Ephesians 1:4 also shows that we were chosen before creation.
“just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love”
‭‭EPHESIANS‬ ‭1:4‬ ‭NASB‬‬
Are you holy and blameless in word and deed?? If not, you’re not chosen. Btw, salvation is not mentioned, moral behavior is. So we are chosen to be morally holy and blameless before man and God.

The truth is God wants his children to be holy and blameless and always did. All and any of his children. What other behavior does he want in Heaven besides holy and blameless?
 
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fhansen

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No good Catholic would dare deny, that fulfilling the righteous requirements of the Law are fulfilled in Christ by grace through faith. Paul presses on, like all mature believers, to attain the resurrection of the dead:

and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead. (Phil. 3:9-11)​

The gifts of faith include works, but grace comes first.

Grace and peace,
Mark
Well, yes, I certainly wouldn't disagree with that, at least on the role of grace. Here's an official teaching on it, in fact, from Trent, session 6:

CHAPTER VIII
HOW THE GRATUITOUS JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER BY FAITH IS TO BE UNDERSTOOD

But when the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely,[44] these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God[45] and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification.

For, if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the Apostle says, grace is no more grace.[46]

And none of that asserts that we're saved by faith alone. And you're reading of Phil 3 is wrong or incomplete IMO. It's basically telling us that man cannot achieve righteousness on his own, based on the Law. To attempt to do so or feel obligated to do so is what it means to be "under the Law". The "righteousness of God" is that which can be achieved in man, but only by God, not by man, by grace which comes with communion with God which in turn comes by faith. This is what it means to be "under grace". All a work of grace, and yet a work we can nonetheless refuse to participate in-or turn back away from at any step along the way.

And this righteousness or justice, this justification, is a free gift. We're forgiven, our sins taken away; we're cleansed, made new creations. Now we're expected to continue to walk in that justice, in that uprightness, aligned with God's will. Our sins are forgiven; now we must 'go, and sin no more' with this new life of grace given to us. If we sin seriously, persistently, we must not presume anything. A change of heart and genuine repentance is required; we're sort of starting over again having returned to a fallen state.
 
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BNR32FAN

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No, the lamb was slain from the foundstion of the world. I know the theology that emphasizes the salvation but the Bible emphasizes the lamb.

Poor biased translation. The greek has that phrase with the Lamb,
The book was there. The names were not. That’s from a false theology. Jesus never mentioned names already written.
Are you holy and blameless in word and deed?? If not, you’re not chosen. Btw, salvation is not mentioned, moral behavior is. So we are chosen to be morally holy and blameless before man and God.

The truth is God wants his children to be holy and blameless and always did. All and any of his children. What other behavior does he want in Heaven besides holy and blameless?

Was “The Lamb” slain from the foundation of the world? No He wasn’t the term “The Lamb slain” refers to who’s book and from the foundation of the world refers to when the names were written.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Was “The Lamb” slain from the foundation of the world?
That what’s the Greek says though. Read it. That phrase refers to the Lamb.

“not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”
No He wasn’t the term “The Lamb slain” refers to who’s book and from the foundation of the world refers to when the names were written.
Nope. The phrase goes with the lamb. I know you don’t like it but it’s true. You can read Genesis and you’ll see already Gods plan for Christ.

I didn’t write the Bible so don’t complain to me.
 
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Gods not mad

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I ignored nothing, and you had no reason to think I would not comment in as much "depth" as necessary after I saved us a few posts by asking the question.

So, your answer requires another question because something doesn't add up now. If you didn't bring up the "repentance" terminology in order to make the point it doesn't mean what everyone thinks it does so in reality the bible doesn't actually say we need to repent, why then did you bring it up.

i never said we are not to repent/metanoia i said the way repentance is thought of is incorrect due to translations and culture affecting words that were not originally in scriptural context. do you agree then? is repentance trying harder or is to come into agreement with what God has said about us and who we are this goes back to my original question which i answered myself but still have heard your thoughts on it. DO YOU BELIEVE IF YOU DO NOT PERFORM WORKS YOU CAN LOSE YOUR SALVATION?

There is a serious little twist in that, that is simply not true. I have put it in bold and I
ask, who said we had to "overcome sin"?
You are setting up a requirement the makes non OSAS not work, but non OSAS nor God has that requirement. IOW, you aren't playing fair and you all continue with the untruths I mentioned earlier in order to make your points.

my original quote

a work would be trying to change your own behavior by trying to discipline ones self to not do a particular sin, this will never produce the fruit we desire because we as fallen beings and are incapable of overcoming sin. the Lord has overcomed and him only, so our repentance is accepting that grace which he has provided as a free gift and believing on it.

"who said we have to overcome sin" i didn't, see my remarks after the highlighted sentence. do you believe that if you do not do good works than you can lose your salvation? i don't that is our difference imo. Christ has paid the price for our past present and future sins, curious on your thoughts. our faith seals that promise and our good works come from a love for Jesus but if we do not perform is that salvation ripped from us? curious on your thoughts?

But doesn't Christ say right here in the following verse I keep posting that we must do good, and of course that would take disciplining ourselves, it's work, that's why they call it works, because it isn't easy. Now if it doesn't say that to you, what does it say?

John 5:28-29 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Also if I missed any of your points let me know so I can cover them and ensure you answer mine as well. Like the question right here on the prior verse as well as comment on the twist and why you would put that in there? As well as any others I've asked.

john 5:28-29
the point here is what is good? verse 24 he who hears my words and believes in him who sent me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgement, but has passed from death to life.verse 25 most assuredly, i say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the son of God; and those who hear will live.
he who hears and believes is this not faith? they will have everlasting life. and will not come into judgement. passed from death to life how by faith. faith in what Christs finished work on the cross no works or doing good in the sense of works here.
if his sheep know his voice then does this not say they will live. how because they belong to him by what? faith in him or what they have done based on works. good works come from faith but where are they the standard for salvation? DO YOU BELIEVE YOU CAN LOSE YOUR SALVATION BY NOT PERFORMING WORKS?
verse 28-29 what is good? to believe and have your trust in Christ and his finished work alone or to do good works in order to earn or maintain salvation along with faith? remember no one is good but God. but by Christ we are made righteous so how could my attempt at anything assist in salvation for i am the one in need of the savior.

upon YOUR request to answer mine here are some.

what is repentance to you?
how do you go about repenting personally?
john 10:28-29
ephesians 2:8-9
ephesians 1:13
revelation 3:5
taking the first three scriptures and applying them to revelation 3:5 how do you interpret these four scripture with being anything other than osac.
did the work on the cross pay the price for past present and future sins regardless of whether or not we fall into sin. and if one were to fall into sin and die without "repenting" do they go to hell?
DO YOU BELIEVE YOU CAN LOSE YOUR SALVATION AND IF SO PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE JESUS SAID SO?
 
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BNR32FAN

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That what’s the Greek says though. Read it. That phrase refers to the Lamb.

“not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”
Nope. The phrase goes with the lamb. I know you don’t like it but it’s true. You can read Genesis and you’ll see already Gods plan for Christ.

I didn’t write the Bible so don’t complain to me.

Bless you friend I’m not complaining just politely discussing. There are many more scriptures that support our being chosen before creation like Ephesians 1:4-5. Other examples would be

“For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.”
‭‭ROMANS‬ ‭8:29-30‬ ‭NASB

“who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,”
‭‭2 TIMOTHY‬ ‭1:9‬ ‭NASB‬‬

I didn’t want to change the NASB translation but the Greek word translated to “from” in this case means before all eternity.

“For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.”
‭‭EPHESIANS‬ ‭2:10‬ ‭NASB‬‬

The names written in the book of life are those who were predestined, forordained, chosen, before creation.
 
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fhansen

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The only appeasement is the blood of Christ. So who’s righteous before God? Only those found in Christ and for His sake alone! Not those who believe their “righteous” deeds obligates Gods favor some how.
Does faith obligate Gods favor somehow? God can demand from us anything He wants!
 
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fhansen

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We have to understand that faith is not meant to stand in for righteousness, or replace it, or escape from our obligation to it like some magical get-out-of-hell-free-card, nor is it the equivalent of righteousness in God’s eyes. Rather it’s the first step in being justified, in being righteous-in being who God created us to be. It’s to acknowledge God’s existence, first of all, and then to recognize His goodness, trustworthiness, mercy, and love, having seen all that for ourselves in the person and words and deeds of Jesus Christ. No mere lip-service from us but the real thing, based on real actions performed by Him on our level, in our midst. The “knowledge of God” is revealed, restored to fallen man who, in the disobedience of Adam, had essentially dismissed God as God. By our faith we accept the reconciliation that Jesus came to establish between man and God so that communion with Him, the right order of things for us, can take place again. This new state, itself, even in a small, seedling stage, constitutes justice for man and ensures continued justice, and growth in it, as we continue to walk with and abide in God with whatever grace and opportunities we have to do so. This relationship, however, can be compromised all over again-we simply don’t have to remain in it even after tasting of it.

So faith is directly related to knowledge-what we know of and about God. This is the difference, that faith makes, between the Old and New Covenant-it’s the fulfillment of Jer 31:34:

“No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest…”

But while we can continue to know that the objects of our faith are true-we can also not care anymore; we can reject or dismiss that knowledge even if it tweaks our consciences to do so. From Adam on that is always a possibility for man. And that’s why faith isn’t sufficient in itself. The justice or righteousness that faith is meant to lead to comes by the communion that faith establishes-and, again, that communion can be broken at any time. But with that communion, more faith, along with hope, and, most importantly as Paul tells us in 1 Cor 13, love are given us. Real righteousness, the righteousness that changes us, and that we can increase in as we “invest” the grace God continues to give, even as we'll surely still be challenged by and struggle with sin.

“…if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.” 1 Cor 13:2

Love acts, by its nature, and this is why Matt 25:31-46 can list acts performed for the “least of these” as criteria for judgment. Or why James 1:27 makes sense when he speaks of the pure religion that God accepts. We may be able to fake such deeds, or do them for the wrong, legalistic, motives, but God knows the heart and, when motivated by love, He knows that we’re where we’re supposed to be; the commandments, summed up by the Greatest Commandments, all of which Jesus affirmed as still in effect, should now be fulfilled ipso facto, willingly. And this is why the Church can teach, quoting a 16th century believer:

“At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love.”

We may prefer otherwise, but man is still obligated to be righteous/obedient, obligated to love to put it another way. And, as some on this post have inadvertently confirmed, the “faith alone” doctrine easily leads into some confusion. Adherents may insist that works play no role in salvation but what happens when one has no works or breaks the law/sins, especially in grave matters? Do we fall back to the, “He must not have had 'true/saving faith to begin with'" position? Or do we hold that a believer’s forgiveness is guaranteed such that we don’t even need to repent of sin? But is that position honestly distinguishable from antinomianism? I maintain that God judges us based on the grace given and the righteousness He seeks to cultivate in us with our response to that grace, our cooperation with His continuous work in us. This begins and ends with grace, the first of which is the gift of faith.

Either way the obligation to be righteous remains with the New Covenant. We just have a new way to fulfill it. God didn't make sinners-He just knows that we can't be sinless to the extent that we're apart from Him, that we don't know Him.

"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."John 17:3

Love is the main definition of man's holiness/justice/righteousness, and faith, in response to grace, is the means to this righteousness because faith is the means to God, who is love, and who, alone, can cause us to love as we should.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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“Dead works” helping others is better than doing nothing or waiting for God to change the heart, as far as the recipients of the help are concerned. A thirsty man doesn’t really care if the one providing water is doing another “dead” work. Just a thought.
I find this point of view troubling, many people born into the church, but not again.
 
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Kenny'sID

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i never said we are not to repent/metanoia i said the way repentance is thought of is incorrect due to translations and culture affecting words that were not originally in scriptural context. do you agree then?

You do understand I didn't accuse you of saying that, right? I merely asked.

But anyway you choose to define the term, i think we need to stop living in sin, and if we sin, we need to ask forgiveness and move on, and continue to do that for the rest of our lives so in the end, we can overcome.

DO YOU BELIEVE IF YOU DO NOT PERFORM WORKS YOU CAN LOSE YOUR SALVATION?

Of course...that's why I'm here on this thread

"who said we have to overcome sin" i didn't

No one, that was my point. so why did you even bring it up when no one made the claim we had to?

the point here is what is good?

Your just being contrary now. What do you think good is. How bout those who do evil, do you know what evil is? Would you say to not do evil is doing good. Actually it's defined in the commandments, as well as other lists of sins in the bible, and to not break them would be going good. To help the poor as in the Parable of the sheep and the goats, that is doing good. Again, i think you know exactly what it is but pretending you don't is the only way out for you when it comes to answering to that scripture.
 
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Kenny'sID

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he who hears and believes is this not faith?

Does faith not include listing to and doing as your lord Jesus Christ as well as God tells you you must do? As far as I'm concerned it absolutely does include that, and I think all OSAS is just pretending if they say it does not include that. Faith and works. Faith without works is dead. It's all right there in front of you, you can choose not to believe it if you like.

what is repentance to you?

Let's not confuse things with your term there, a term you claim is different than what it is, normally defined, it only confuses things. So dropping that word altogether, I think we need to turn from our living in perpetual sin, or sin as a lifestyle, and when we do sin, we need to ask forgiveness.

how do you go about repenting personally?

I just answered that with the prior answer.

taking the first three scriptures and applying them to revelation 3:5 how do you interpret these four scripture with being anything other than osac.
did the work on the cross pay the price for past present and future sins regardless of whether or not we fall into sin. and if one were to fall into sin and die without "repenting" do they go to hell?

Been there before and we almost never see scripture as saying the same thing, so I would ask that you post the verses here, tell us what you think they mean, and then we can comment on your interpretation.

DO YOU BELIEVE YOU CAN LOSE YOUR SALVATION AND IF SO PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE JESUS SAID SO?

Yes.

For one Jesus says it right here we must do good and not evil, and if they start out doing good (have salvation) then turn evil/stop doing good they will have the same problem, as in they will rise to be condemned.

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Now, If you want to be contrary again, and play games and say that's not what is says, it absolutely says that to me, and beyond any doubt, but if you choose to go the denial/contrary rout and pretend not see it, I'm not even going to discuss it with you. You have done that before with "what do you mean by good" " and something to the affect of interpreting "good works" as only 2 or more works", and those things are a waste of time an people just trying to dodge reality. We're here to have a serious debate on reality and I'm just not into wasting time on someone clearly pretending something isn't there when it is. Your choice.
 
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Silverback

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I just was curious about those posts online about people who have died that were Christian and experienced going to Hell. Do people really think that it’s all made up and you shouldn’t listen to those testimonies? Do people really think it’s impossible to lose your salvation? Cause there are many testimonies of people who have seen the names of some believers removed from the book of life due to backsliding and unrepentant sin.

Tell me what you think about all this, is it something that you just ignore and hope they’re wrong? Please explain what you do to convince yourself of the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine.

Personally, I have a strong Calvinist slant, so I think the elect are eternally secure.

Scripture states that man is appointed once to die, then the judgement. I don't believe in near death experiences.
 
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