Can you deny the Virgin Birth and Physical Resurrection of Jesus and be a Christian?

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,474
18,454
Orlando, Florida
✟1,249,390.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
It still begs the question. I am sure all of the people you referred to were or are good people. There are good Muslims, atheists and others who are not Christian.

I accept them as Christians because they accept the historic continuity of the Church and believe in some sense they are still carrying on its mission. It doesn't mean I'd allow them to preach in our congregation necessarily, but I think calling them non-Christians is wrong.
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,474
18,454
Orlando, Florida
✟1,249,390.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
For those interested here are two other interviews on similar subjects:

Opinion | Cardinal Tobin, Am I a Christian?

Opinion | Am I a Christian, Pastor Timothy Keller?

I think Tim Keller misses a point, there is almost a "revelatory" quality to the fact people don't recognize Jesus at first, this perhaps fits with ancient Christian mystagogy more than it does the idea that the disciples merely forgot what Jesus looked like after only a few days (for instance, Jesus being recognized when he breaks bread with the disciples has clear symbolic or mystical significance, it's not just "oh, I forgot what my Lord and Master looked like there for a minute").
 
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I think Tim Keller misses a point, there is almost a "revelatory" quality to the fact people don't recognize Jesus at first, this perhaps fits with ancient Christian mystagogy more than it does the idea that the disciples merely forgot what Jesus looked like after only a few days (for instance, Jesus being recognized when he breaks bread with the disciples has clear symbolic or mystical significance, it's not just "oh, I forgot what my Lord and Master looked like there for a minute").
Or, Jesus was raised imperishably.
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,474
18,454
Orlando, Florida
✟1,249,390.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
Or, Jesus was raised imperishably.

Sure, but he was raised in such a way that he was fully capable of revealing or hiding himself from anyone he chose, in whatever means he chose. This isn't the sort of "nuts and bolts" reality that many evangelicals, wed to modernism and their own take on scientism, take for granted, but I don't think it really fits all that well with the authors actual intentions.
 
Upvote 0

Jonaitis

Soli Deo Gloria
Jan 4, 2019
5,191
4,204
Wyoming
✟122,609.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Can you deny the Virgin Birth and Physical Resurrection of Jesus and be a Christian?

My answer is no. I agree with St Paul in 1 Corinthians 15. Linked for reference.

Yet in a New York Times opinion piece interview with Serene Jones, a Protestant minister, president of Union Theological Seminary the answer is "sure!."

Here is the interview:

Opinion | Reverend, You Say the Virgin Birth Is ‘a Bizarre Claim’?

Let me know your thoughts.

I agree that while the virgin birth and physical resurrection are core principles of the faith, I strongly affirm that a proper view of the atonement is necessary to be a Christian as well. These other truths are essential with and subservient to this great doctrine, and we ought to understand it right.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: redleghunter
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I ment to offer an opinion in regards to General Theological Seminary, it got a bit long.
Thanks for the clarification. I thought you were referring to Bonhoeffer and whether he denied a physical Resurrection of Christ.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Silverback
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Sure, but he was raised in such a way that he was fully capable of revealing or hiding himself from anyone he chose, in whatever means he chose. This isn't the sort of "nuts and bolts" reality that many evangelicals, wed to modernism and their own take on scientism, take for granted, but I don't think it really fits all that well with the authors actual intentions.
The author's intention is exactly what Evangelicals like Keller communicate.
 
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I just don't agree with that approach to the Bible as I think its too indebted to SCSR:

Fundamentalism: Whence? Where? Whither? Part 3 | SHARPER IRON

The Lutheran approach is more Christocentric. As Luther said, "What pushes Christ?" By which he meant, "Where can I find the merciful God I keep hearing about?"
I don't understand the attempt at obfuscation. Jesus either bodily rose from the dead or He did not. If one does not believe He rose from the dead bodily, then they are at odds with both Holy Scriptures and the historic witness of the church and her creeds.
 
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Jesus said believe in Him that He is the Messiah, the way, Truth, and Life. He did not say that a person must believe that His mother concieved Him as a Virgin so that you can be Saved.
Matthew, Luke and the historic creeds seem to think this is very important information and for a reason.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,474
18,454
Orlando, Florida
✟1,249,390.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
Actually the two largest of the four Gospels do.

But what about Paul's own Gospel? I consider that even more relevant as a Lutheran, since Paul is the core of our understanding of the Gospel.
 
Upvote 0

grandvizier1006

Seeking a life that honors God.
Supporter
Dec 2, 2014
5,976
2,599
28
MS
✟663,518.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Only God knows the heart of these Christians who have trouble with the virgin birth. I personally don't understand why they do, but since it's miraculous it makes some sense that it would be difficult for some people. I would encourage belief in it, as it is of course Scriptural.
 
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
In fairness, most who don't believe in the virgin birth, who are theological liberals, also don't believe in original sin. They believe Jesus is a savior in the sense he shows us the true aim of human life and preaches a message of moral reform and liberation. Some also have an understanding of personal sin and that Jesus, and the Church, by extension, also offers forgiveness for that, too.
Yet that forgiveness is only available through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. That seems to be omitted in liberal theology.

The preaching of moral reform and liberation can be found in Ghandi. Yet he's dead.
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,474
18,454
Orlando, Florida
✟1,249,390.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
Only God knows the heart of these Christians who have trouble with the virgin birth. I personally don't understand why they do, but since it's miraculous it makes some sense that it would be difficult for some people. I would encourage belief in it, as it is of course Scriptural.

FWIW, I accept the traditional story, too. But I'm not going to pretend its an easy story. The whole point of it in fact is that it's supossed to be difficult. The infinite being capable of the finite . THis is only resolved through the Theology of the Cross, that, contrary to pagan philosophy, God is most revealed in that which humanity most fears and despises, in weakness, powerlessness, shame, and death.

Yet that forgiveness is only available through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. That seems to be omitted in liberal theology.

The preaching of moral reform and liberation can be found in Ghandi. Yet he's dead.

But if Gandhi is gathered up with the saints is heaven, it would not surprise me at all. Gandhi strikes me as a man of real faith. I'm sure he knew his death would not be the last word on the significance of his life, but was trusting in a higher authority to make that judgment.

BTW, some of Gandhi's favorite hymns were from Christians.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
But what about Paul's own Gospel? I consider that even more relevant as a Lutheran, since Paul is the core of our understanding of the Gospel.
Well that's a change of opinion from your previous postings. Whenever the following is posted you respond by saying Jesus did not say that:

1 Corinthians 6:

9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

So in this case of the Virgin Birth, you appeal to Paul not mentioning it. Yet two Gospel writers did make a solid point Mary was a virgin when conceiving and giving birth to Jesus.

Do we get to pick and choose which apostolic teaching to accept and to ignore?
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,474
18,454
Orlando, Florida
✟1,249,390.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
Well that's a change of opinion from your previous postings. Whenever the following is posted you respond by saying Jesus did not say that:

1 Corinthians 6:

9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

So in this case of the Virgin Birth, you appeal to Paul not mentioning it. Yet two Gospel writers did make a solid point Mary was a virgin when conceiving and giving birth to Jesus.

Do we get to pick and choose which apostolic teaching to accept and to ignore?

I'm a Lutheran which means I don't let clobber passages or Law get the last word. That's not the right way to preach the Gospel.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Justified112

Well-Known Member
Jan 15, 2019
526
276
47
Midwest US
✟25,034.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Can you deny the Virgin Birth and Physical Resurrection of Jesus and be a Christian?

My answer is no. I agree with St Paul in 1 Corinthians 15. Linked for reference.

Yet in a New York Times opinion piece interview with Serene Jones, a Protestant minister, president of Union Theological Seminary the answer is "sure!."

Here is the interview:

Opinion | Reverend, You Say the Virgin Birth Is ‘a Bizarre Claim’?

Let me know your thoughts.
You are correct, those are essential doctrines that cannot be rejected. Particularly the resurrection. Christianity cannot exist without the resurrection. If Jesus is not raised, then nothing else matters.
 
Upvote 0