Destroying the Disastrous Doctrine of Cessationism

No Username Found said:

The point is the miracles that were performed by the apostles as recorded in the Bible are no different than any other miracle performed today.

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Please stop it.

The point is no one has proof there are miracles performed today, until you have that proof, you're just trying to confuse the issue.

Albion said:

That is no proof. It is a claim.

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It is proof to the one making the claim. My grandfather was dying from a penicillin allergy. His kidneys had completely stopped, and his teeth had fallen out. He looked like a dead man already, and the doctors expected him to die within hours. He was not a follower of Christ, but he went to church, got prayed for, and had a vision of an angel replacing his kidneys. He ran out while they were praying for him, because he needed to used the toilet. His kidneys were healed.

For him, it was proof. For the people who knew him, it was proof. For anyone we tell it to, it is only a claim. Proof comes directly from God, and claims come from those who believe the proof. No man can generate proof, nor can he afford his own proof to another man. Even the doctor's records are only claims.

If proof is given to a man who does not believe, then he makes no claim of proof. His only claim is that he had no proof. As far as we know, he may be right. Maybe he really had no proof. What difference does that make to those of us who have seen and do believe? Moreover, what difference does that makes to those of us who have not seen and still believe?

nonaeroterraqueous said:

It is proof to the one making the claim. My grandfather was dying from a penicillin allergy. His kidneys had completely stopped, and his teeth had fallen out. He looked like a dead man already, and the doctors expected him to die within hours. He was not a follower of Christ, but he went to church, got prayed for, and had a vision of an angel replacing his kidneys. He ran out while they were praying for him, because he needed to used the toilet. His kidneys were healed.

For him, it was proof. For the people who knew him, it was proof. For anyone we tell it to, it is only a claim. Proof comes directly from God, and claims come from those who believe the proof. No man can generate proof, nor can he afford his own proof to another man. Even the doctor's records are only claims.

If proof is given to a man who does not believe, then he makes no claim of proof. His only claim is that he had no proof. As far as we know, he may be right. Maybe he really had no proof. What difference does that make to those of us who have seen and do believe? Moreover, what difference does that makes to those of us who have not seen and still believe?

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Great! Can we get the records from those involved at the hospital with diagnosis, names, and whatnot? We can work together and figure out exactly what we would need. Just explain to them it's important you prove the miracle to others, and I'm sure you could get the cooperation you need. You do want others to believe there are still miracles today...right?

Dear everyone (and @Dave L - who I haven't replied to for a couple of pages)

It seems to me that both sides have a point. I've been following this thread with some interest, and contributed earlier, but the thread developed faster than I could keep up.

Simply put, the real issue is defining what on earth is meant by "tongues" and "prophecy". I'll offer up some quick thoughts.

1) Tongues: It appears that the theological background of tongues has to do with (1) a reversal of Babel; (2) a fulfilment of the promise to Abraham that all nations will form part of God's people.

Tongues is therefore a sign of the new covenant. It is a sign for unbelievers (as 1 Corinthians 14 tells us). In Acts 2 it appears that people were speaking in human languages, yet it appears they were speaking in languages they never could speak in before. Nevertheless, these were human languages understandable to certain others (but not all). It was (and is) a sign of the multi-ethnic "all nations" church that God was now birthing; reversing the dispersing of the nations at Babel and now bringing them under one head, Christ.

Speculatively, if tongues at Asuza were genuine, it may be more because the real controversy initially there was the fact that blacks and whites were worshipping together. What better sign of God's approval of this than giving the gift of tongues?

If tongues is a sign of the New Covenant, it makes no sense to say it has ceased. However, the type of sign it is may certainly have dwindled away as it was no longer necessary in a world where language became standardized and the church achieved some degree of world-wide conquest (in a spiritual sense). Therefore, it makes sense for it to pop up here and there (and mostly in third world countries, it seems). Also, the word 'cease' in 1 Corinthians 13 can indicate 'stilling', which doesn't mean God doesn't dispense the gift anymore today, only that the gift is stilled when or where it is no longer necessary.

What is a problem is the cessationist seems to believe that tongues were a revelatory gift given for the purpose of writing scripture. I see nothing in scripture to validate this definition. There is very little, if any, reason to see 1 Corinthians 14, which speaks of "mysteries" being spoken with a tongue, to be referring to forming scripture. In fact, 1 Corinthians 14 seems to indicate the very opposite - because Paul encourages prophecy over tongues. I'd be happy to talk about what these verses might mean, but I don't want to write too much down here as I suspect no one will read it right now.

So let's get into 2) prophecy then. I think both pentecostals and cessationists are subscribing to their own particular narrow definition of prophecy, and this is not helping. The basic and most sure definition of prophecy is to simply speak for God, about God, to reveal God and His will and ways to people. This is accomplished quite well through preaching. In fact, I could probably build quite a strong case to showcase that the New Testament largely has preaching in mind when it speaks of prophecy. Cessationists would agree with this and I would agree with them, to a certain degree. However, if a cessationist does agree to this, I would ask why they think 1 Corinthians 13 is claiming that preaching would also pass, because it clearly hasn't and is clearly necessary.

But I would disagree with cessationists that the "word of knowledge" gift has ceased (or that any gifts have ceased) and I think a lot of charismatics do practice this gift with great success. I have practiced it many times in my own life and it bears good fruit - and has borne good fruit for me when I have gone through particular dark times in my life. I'm happy to provide examples to anyone who asks.

As a practicing charismatic, however, I'm somewhat with the cessationist in being skeptical over the "heavenly prayer language" definition of tongues. I used to do this a lot but I could never quite see the benefit for me or for anyone. I don't think this is what 1 Corinthians 14 is talking about. I think tongues really seems to be about human languages, and its purpose is both evangelistic and as a sign of the fulfilment of God's promise to the nations. All of the 'heavenly prayer language' stuff seems speculative at best.

DamianWarS said:

is that the only role of the HS?

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The Holy Spirit is God along with the Father and Son. What is the scope of God's role in the universe?

JLB777 said:

Sorry, but it’s is your claim that Apostles have ceased.

It is your claim that the baptism with the Holy Spirit has ceased, all with no such scriptures.



JLB

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Scripture says the apostleship ended with Paul.

“And that he [Jesus] was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.” (1 Corinthians 15:5–8)

This would not be true if there were more apostles.

nonaeroterraqueous said:

It is proof to the one making the claim.

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Well, that is part of the problem, isn't it?

But then, after believing what they want to believe, they become adamant (or worse) that everyone else must believe that it is proof also!

Just my 2cents.

Why I am a cessationist. I admit that much of this comes from “ Signs of the Apostles” by Walter Chantry. He is not my only source but he did help shape my views. I also read many Pentecostal pages on the subject and found almost all of them saying pretty much the same thing. Only that the gifts had not ceased but not giving any real reason why. I also studied some Pentecostal history and was convinced that the modern day gifts were absent until about the 1800’s. Most of those who hold to modern day gifts trace their history to the so-called Azusa Street Revival which took place between 1906 to 1913.
Now to look at the way miracles and signs were used in the Scriptures.
Joseph was the first to receive extraordinary gifts from God. He didn’t work miracles but did do things that were not common. His gifts involved delivering divinely revealed truth. He was a Prophet of God.

Next we have Moses, the first to work miracles. His miracles were given as a sign that he came from God and spoke from God. This principle applies to all Old Testament miracles in that they were done as a sign that the one doing them was a Prophet from God and spoke for God. When they were done it was expected that the inspired word of God was to be spoken.

The miracles of Jesus are next in our study. His miracles were primarily to show His authority as the Prophet of God.

Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.l
Joh 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Joh 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

The miracles of the Apostles testified to their authority as God’s prophets, they who spoke the revelation of God.

Hebrews 1:1-3 (KJV) 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
Heb 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

New Testament miracles are, in Scripture, viewed as God’s stamp of approval on the message of the Apostles.

Ordinary Christians and gifts. Every recorded instance of men receiving these gifts were under the direct ministry of an Apostle.

This brings me to the conclusion that no true servent of Christ will be given power to work miracles unless he is directly associated with bringing fresh revelation from God. They are given as signs of God to show He sent the ones performing miracles and we should expect to hear from God when they are done. There are no more Apostles as there are no more that saw and heard directly from Christ as did those who gave us the Scriptures. Also to believe that men today receive a fresh revelation from God is to say the Scriptures are not sufficient.

The gift of tounges are clearly speaking a language spoken by the people hearing, as in Brazilian Portuguese, that was previously unknown to the speaker. It still happens today in certain instances but is not common. Miracles also happen today but by the hand of God alone in order that the glory is of God and not man. God heals miraculously and no one can deny His work.

Continuationists do not seem to understand Paul’s whole argument in 1Cor. 14. He is speaking in hypothetical language in order to make his point. An example is where he says, “if I pray in tounges”, verse 14. He doesn’t say that he prays in tounges but if I pray in tounges. His whole argument is directly opposite to what Continuationists think it is. He is telling the Corinthians that speaking gibberish only make the one speaking proud. He edifies himself only. He is stressing the point that simple clear preaching is what is needed. It edifies the whole body gathered as believers.

Has knowledge ceased? Yes it has as well as prophesy as in seeing the future. We already know the future and are waiting for the Son from Heaven our blessed Hope.

Satan is a crafty devil and makes things appear as truth but they are a lie.

DamianWarS said:

1 Cor 13:10 speaks of "the perfect" to come. cessationist use this to point to an event in the early church (like the completion of the NT canon) that effectively closed the revelatory gifts, as per the aforementioned verse, however nothing else in scripture even hints of such a moment.

This is reverse interpretation with a starting point from history then applying it to scripture, so history is informing us what "the perfect" is, not scripture. However, if we put sola-scriptura in a vacuum these outside events not described in the bible cannot be used to interpret scripture and all we have is scripture to interpret scripture. With only scripture available, 1 Cor 13:10 can only point to an eschatological event as the Bible affirms no other event consistent with that which is spoken of in 1 Cor 13:10.

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The completion of the canon is a perfectly valid interpretation of 1 Cor 13:8-13. Many bible scholars have written commentaries exegesing that interpretation. There are also many commentaries that espouse the eschatological interpretation of course. But those commentaries tend be quite shallow. An in-depth study of the passage reveals the eschatological interpretation to be faulty. Eg, seeing "face to face" is unwarrantedly assumed to refer to seeing Christ; v13 says that faith and hope would continue after the gifts have ceased (but neither are needed when we are in the presence of the Lord); all the gifts would cease at the return of Christ, not just the 3 mentioned in this passage; teleios more likely refers to completeness rather than perfection; etc.

And no, 1 Cor 13:8-13 is not the only passage in scripture that supports cessationism:

The gift of apostle ceased - apostles being first century, miracle-working, scripture writing, eye-witness apostles of Christ. Paul specifically says he was the last apostle (1 Cor. 15:8). And nobody today can fulfill the apostolic requirement of being an eye witness to Christ's resurrection (Acts 1:21-22). Most continuists acknowledge that there are no longer apostles of the biblical kind today. So they already concede to cessationism to a certain degree.

Ephesians 2:20 says the church was built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ being the cornerstone. Apostles and prophets were the foundation of the church. When a foundation of a building is completed, we no longer lay any further foundation stones. Prophets ceased along with apostles.

The reason stated in scripture for people having the ability to perform healings and miracles was to authenticate them and their message (John 2:11, 20:30-31; Heb 2:3-4; Mat 11:2-5; Acts 2:22, 4:10, 16, 8:6-7, 14:3, John 4:48, Acts 2:22). Now that those men have been authenticated and their message recorded in scripture, the need for further authentication disappears.

Now it's your turn. Where in scripture does it state that all the gifts would continue until Christ returns? Unless you can provide some verses then there is more scriptural evidence for cessation than there is for continuation.

The huge elephant in the room for continuists of course is the fact that the gifts in question did indeed cease. Cessationists have given a valid biblical reason for them ceasing - Paul's prophecy was fulfilled. What is your theory, with scriptural evidence, as to why they stopped?

The other big problem for continuists is the gifts which they claim have been reinstated in the last 100 years do not match the biblical description of those gifts. Where is the biblical evidence for tongues being a non-human language? Or for prophecy being a fallible message that comes through a fuzzy feeling? Or people with the gift of healing failing to instantly heal people?

Dave L said:

The Holy Spirit is God along with the Father and Son. What is the scope of God's role in the universe?

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every response zooms out broader and broader, let's pull it back into the topic. 2 Tim 3:16-17 shows us scripture equips us and equips us fully but this does not remove the work of God in our lives nor does it remove the need for God. The logical end of this language "fully equipped" does not stop until we are in need of no outside sources, including God himself.

You mentioned yourself that understanding of scripture is from the HS so this would be in contrast to your idea of fully equipped at the very least scripture alone does not give us a sufficient amount of understanding to interpret it correctly without the need of the HS as you mentioned.

This interpretation of a whole dependence upon scripture alone would not just eliminate tongues or understanding through the spirit, it would eliminate all gifts of the spirit and render the spirit functionless in our lives. Jesus teaches us after he leaves the spirit comes in a function as a helper, you seem to desire to replace the HS's role with scripture.

1 Corinthians was written in the 50s, 2 Timothy 10 years later, so is Paul abrogating his words on the gifts of the HS since scripture is mature enough in the 60s that they were no longer needed? Or is this still a prophetic line pointing ahead to the completion of the canon? These are nor consistent biblical themes and Paul is not writing these things to prepare Timothy to look to scripture over the HS.

DamianWarS said:

every response zooms out broader and broader, let's pull it back into the topic. 2 Tim 3:16-17 shows us scripture equips us and equips us fully but this does not remove the work of God in our lives nor does it remove the need for God. The logical end of this language "fully equipped" does not stop until we are in need of no outside sources, including God himself.

You mentioned yourself that understanding of scripture is from the HS so this would be in contrast to your idea of fully equipped at the very least scripture alone does not give us a sufficient amount of understanding to interpret it correctly without the need of the HS as you mentioned.

This interpretation of a whole dependence upon scripture alone would not just eliminate tongues or understanding through the spirit, it would eliminate all gifts of the spirit and render the spirit functionless in our lives. Jesus teaches us after he leaves the spirit comes in a function as a helper, you seem to desire to replace the HS's role with scripture.

1 Corinthians was written in the 50s, 2 Timothy 10 years later, so is Paul abrogating his words on the gifts of the HS since scripture is mature enough in the 60s that they were no longer needed? Or is this still a prophetic line pointing ahead to the completion of the canon? These are nor consistent biblical themes and Paul is not writing these things to prepare Timothy to look to scripture over the HS.

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Scripture replaces many gifts and does a better job.

Dave L said:

But you have not read your bible on the matter. Or we would not be having this discussion.

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Ok, Dave, you win.
Tongues have ceased.
What other verses or doctrines in the Bible have ceased so that I may redact them from my Bible?

Ken C. said:

Ok, Dave, you win.
Tongues have ceased.
What other verses or doctrines in the Bible have ceased so that I may redact them from my Bible?

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The issue is not that tongues "have ceased," but that tongues did cease--at some time.

Many continuationists argue that they may have ceased, but then follow that up with "but now they are back," as though that is what matters.

It is NOT "what matters" when denunciations of cessationists for having pointed out that tongues gradually disappeared in the years after Christianity became the dominant religion remains part of the continuationists' argument.

Ken C. said:

Ok, Dave, you win.
Tongues have ceased.
What other verses or doctrines in the Bible have ceased so that I may redact them from my Bible?

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The New Covenant replaced the Old. We are no longer under the law but use it for instruction and commentary.

BCsenior said:

Some are guilty of the serious sins of doubt, lack of faith, and unbelief

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Yep, doubt, lack of faith and unbelief in men, not God so we are guilty of nothing but being cautious and for very good reason. Now as to being truly guilty of something, did you think that over before you leveled the accusation? Seems to me you recklessly thought it would help you in this so you never really bothered giving serious thought as to whether it was actually true or not.

Now please explain how it's a sin of doubt, lack of faith, and unbelief in men that make claims yet offer no proof of those claims? There was a time when doubting that would have been considered good sense.

Dave L said:

Scripture replaces many gifts and does a better job.

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this is a platitude with no depth and doesn't contribute any knowledge to the conversation. Do you care to go beyond single lines? you yourself said the HS is needed for understanding so by your own admission scripture is dependent upon the HS in order to understand which means it doesn't do a better job than the HS it works with the HS.

Albion said:

The issue is not that tongues "have ceased," but that tongues did cease--at some time.

Many continuationists argue that they may have ceased, but then follow that up with "but now they are back," as though that is what matters.

It is NOT "what matters" when denunciations of cessationists for having pointed out that tongues gradually disappeared in the years after Christianity became the dominant religion remains part of the continuationists' argument.

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the issue is deeper than this. it is just not about at some time tongues fell out of practice it's the reason why this happened, and the latter is more important. regardless of what the popular positions are they are arbitrary to a greater issue that arises if this loss is a result of spiritual neglect or drift from the Church. Who cares how far people miss the mark in their labels what matters more is if this loss is ordained by God or not.

DamianWarS said:

this is a platitude with no depth and doesn't contribute any knowledge to the conversation. Do you care to go beyond single lines? you yourself said the HS is needed for understanding so by your own admission scripture is dependent upon the HS in order to understand which means it doesn't do a better job than the HS it works with the HS.

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If you knew scripture you would not only see the improvements over your "Pentecostal knock offs", but improvements over the original gifts as well.

DamianWarS said:

the issue is deeper than this. it is just not about at some time tongues fell out of practice it's the reason why this happened, and the latter is more important.

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Yes, the issue is bigger, but I feel that it may take one step at a time to unravel the misconceptions.

For now, I have been mainly concerned with the basic issue of what causes continuationists to sneer at cessationists. The former have all sorts of reasons why they believe cessationists are wrong, wrong, wrong. One of them concerns what I was speaking to recently--their notion that cessationists think tongues have ceased and have never been experienced again, period.

The continuationists assume that they have a foolproof rejoined to that by pointing to the modern pentecostal movement as a resumption of tongues and the gifts generally, as though that disproves the cessationist position. In reality, it either fails to recognize it or else assumes that, with a recent resumption, the point is negated...which it is not.

Dave L said:

If you knew scripture you would not only see the improvements over your "Pentecostal knock offs", but improvements over the original gifts as well.

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these are more platitudes, peppered with an ad hominem attack. can you present something with depth and if it is as valuable as you claim we all can benefit from it