Isaiah 40:22 -- "Globe of the Earth"

FEZZILLA · Apr 21, 2019

Subduction Zone said:
Meanwhile I decided to a little homework, this is the work of a person that does have a PhD in the field:

Science Then: The Bible vs. The Greeks Edition • Richard Carrier

He is an authority and he sites other authorities on the verse in the OP:

"First, the Bible. Isaiah 40:22 does not say the earth is a sphere. It says it is a circle. Which is flat. The word for circle is chuwg (Job 22:14 and 26:10; Proverbs 8:27). The word for sphere is duwr (Isaiah 22:18). The latter can also mean circle. But the former never means sphere. It refers to walking around a thing (a two-dimensional activity). The word for ball, instead, derives from heaping things up, from huts to garbage piles (a three-dimensional activity). Even Greek translations by ancient Rabbinical experts used gyron, “circle,” rather than sphaira, “sphere,” so even they understood this to mean circle and not sphere. So, in fact, Isaiah 40:22 says the earth is a flat disk. Like every other culture thought at the time. Babinski’s chapter cited above goes into more detail comparing the ancient Hebrew cosmology of the structure of earth and heavens throughout the Bible, well establishing it was the same primitive model adopted by everyone else of the time, not some fancy new scientific one."

Please note the Rabbinical scholars that translated Isaiah from Hebrew to Greek used the Greek word for circle and not for sphere, and the Greeks did have two clear words. The OP's own sources when referring to the Hebrew said that chuwg is an inscribed circle, not just the one that I presented earlier. That is always flat.

Last the OP still have not presented any evidence for this vast atheist conspiracy that began 200 years ago. Considering that the number of atheists at that time was very small I have just a little problem believing this on just his say so.

Liberal sources are no sources at all.

First, we already been through duwr and you want to pretend it means globe. A ball is not a globe nor does the context have anything to do with God's creation of the earth. But each time chuwg is used its used in direct context with God's creation of earth and His dominion thereof. So duwr is no more contextually sound to apply in Isaiah 40:22 than there being applied to a sentence that grammatically calls for their. So your entire argument is based on the vague assumption that Isaiah should use a word that would be a grammar error to contemporary Jews reading him.

Secondly, Isa.40:22 in the LXX does not use the middle French and Germanic word gyron.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gyron

For Isaiah 40:22 in the LXX the word used is gyros, for Pro.8:27 its gyro. This word is also gyre.

Here are Greek definitions of gyros, gyro, gyre.

This link list all related words of gyro and it doesn't look good if you're a flat earth fan looking to spread atheist lies on the internet. Better to just give up on atheism.
gyro (rotating mechanism) - Memidex dictionary/thesaurus

Still don't look good for atheist propaganda
γύρος - Wiktionary

Gyre is another for of gyros and the Latin gyrus.
the definition of gyre

More on Gyre
gyre | Origin and meaning of gyre by Online Etymology Dictionary

Of course, the Romans copied everything the Greeks did so their language emulated Greek meanings.

Proverbs 8:27 from Latin Vulgate:

"quando praeparabat caelos aderam quando certa lege et gyro vallabat abyssos."

Word: gyro

Latin Definition of gyro
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...qoEuV-5AamhFrD5urdpvAmjhvETguk1pQ7sYuuQZ5-k9s

Isaiah 40:22 from Latin Vulgate:

Word: gyrus

Latin Definition of gyrus
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...jvQHlv71wa8Egb4VPQlMbipbLwGV-MKe7RlhCzk3eNH5c

Phrase: gyrus terrarum

Latin definition of gyrus terrarum
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/d...3RbUZVfP-yNmYYCcvqVnsanLs9XstGJLMcyeDJrCbKldM

"globe of the earth"!!

Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon, H2329: "חוּג m. a circle, sphere, used of the arch or vault of the sky, Pro.8:27; Job 22:14; of the world, Isa.40:22."

Here is 4th century Bishop Ambrose giving a reading from Isaiah 40:22.

"And further on: 'Who sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts, who stretcheth out the heavens as an arch?' Who, then, ventures to put his knowledge in the same plane with that of God?” (St.Ambrose, "Hexameron" The Fathers Of The Church series translated by John J. Savage, p.231).

The Douay-Rheims Bible is an English translation of Jerome's Latin Vulgate:

"It is he that sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts: he that stretcheth out the heavens as nothing, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in" (Douay-Rheims Bible).

The English "circle" is meant to be understood as a 3D circle as seen from space. Prophecy is not cultural...its Divine.

So here you fake source is REFUTED!

Here's a bonus for you.

Clement of Alexandria (150-215 A.D.)

Clement was a 2nd century church father. The following is taken from his writing called The Instructor, which I’m citing from the very last page of Book III entitled To The Paedagous:

“And when the seasons, in their circling course,
Winter and summer, spring and autumn, each
Should come, according to well-ordered plan;
Out of a confused heap who didst create
This ordered sphere, and from the shapeless mass
Of matter didst the universe adorn;--
Grant to me life, and be that life well spent,
Thy grace enjoying; let me act and speak
In all things as Thy Holy Scriptures teach”
(Ante-Nicene Christian Library, Vol.1).

And the Holy Scriptures taught Clement about the sphere of the earth and the circular course (rotation) of the 4 seasons

Origen (185-254 A.D.)

Origen of Alexandria was born in the 2nd century but his ministry would make him a 3rd century man. He is an Ante-Nicene church father who wrote On First Principles, which is the very first book on Theology ever written by a Christian. The following quotation is taken from the John C. Cavadini edition.

“Certainly what some say of this world, that it is corruptible because it was made, and yet does not go to corruption because the will of God, who made it and preserves it from being mastered by corruption, is stronger and more powerful than corruption, may more rightly be believed of that world which we have above called a “fixed” sphere, because by the will of God it is in no way “subject to corruption” (cf.Rom 8:20, 21), for the reason that it has not admitted the causes of corruption" (On First Principles, Book II, Chapter III, p.113).

Origen continues:

". . . . and the entire condition of the world we know, in which the spheres of the planets are said to be, is left behind and superseded, there exists above that sphere which is called "fixed" an abiding place for the pious and blessed, in as it were a "good land" and a "land of the living," which the "meek" and gentle will receive for an inheritance. To this land or earth belongs that heaven which, with its more magnificent circuit, surrounds and confines it, and this is the true heaven and the first to be so called" (On First Principles, Book II, Chapter III, p.114).

The spheres of the planets is a clear reference that Origen's reading of Scripture revealed that our earth is a sphere.

Clement of Rome (A.D, 35 - 99).

Clement of Rome is the first early church father who would become a successor to the Apostles. He was consecrated by the Apostle Peter and mentioned favorably by the Apostle Paul in Philippians 4:3,

"And I urge you also, true companion, help these women who labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the Book of Life."

Clement's name is written in the Book of Life. Clement is believed by some scholars to have been the author of the Book of Hebrews based on the grammatical style. While this is uncertain, what is certain is that Clement gives us clear insight to what 1st century Christians believed.

Clement affirms the Scriptural teaching of the round world. All quotations are taken from The Ancient Christian Writers series Vol.1. His Epistle To The Corinthians was written in 97 A.D. which is only one or two years after the Apostle John penned Revelation!

“Thus, by His transcendent might He established the heavens, and by His incomprehensible understanding He ordered them: the earth He separated from the water now encircling it, and firmly grounded it on the unshakable foundation of His own will” (33:3).

The next quote comes from chapter 20 and here Clement clearly states the earth rotates:

"Day and night complete the revolution ordained by Him, and neither interferes in the least with the other" (20: 2).

He's obviously reading Job 26:10; 38:14.

Moreover, Clement was a believer in what was called antipodes -- people of opposite earth, who's feet walk opposite to ours.

“The ocean, impassable for men, and the worlds beyond it are governed by the same decrees of the Master” (20:8).

What Clement is saying here is that the earth is a sphere and the other side of the earth is peopled.

Origen (185-254 A.D.) explains Clement's comment:

“Clement indeed, a disciple of the apostles, mentions those whom the Greeks call “people of the opposite earth,” and speaks of other parts of the world which none of our people can reach, nor can any of those who live there cross over to us; and these parts themselves he called “worlds,” when he says, “The ocean is impassable to men, and the worlds beyond it are governed by the same ordinances of God the Ruler” (On First Principles, Chapter III verse 6).

Clement is reading oikouménē from Greek manuscripts which is how he arrives to the antipode conclusion. For there is no oikouménē without antipodes and you don't get antipodes on a flat earth!!

Subduction Zone · Apr 21, 2019

FEZZILLA said:
Liberal sources are no sources at all.

First, we already been through duwr and you want to pretend it means globe. A ball is not a globe nor does the context have anything to do with God's creation of the earth. But each time chuwg is used its used in direct context with God's creation of earth and His dominion thereof. So duwr is no more contextually sound to apply in Isaiah 40:22 than there being applied to a sentence that grammatically calls for their. So your entire argument is based on the vague assumption that Isaiah should use a word that would be a grammar error to contemporary Jews reading him.

Secondly, Isa.40:22 in the LXX does not use the middle French and Germanic word gyron.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gyron

For Isaiah 40:22 in the LXX the word used is gyros, for Pro.8:27 its gyro. This word is also gyre.

Here are Greek definitions of gyros, gyro, gyre.

This link list all related words of gyro and it doesn't look good if you're a flat earth fan looking to spread atheist lies on the internet. Better to just give up on atheism.
gyro (rotating mechanism) - Memidex dictionary/thesaurus

Still don't look good for atheist propaganda
γύρος - Wiktionary

Gyre is another for of gyros and the Latin gyrus.
the definition of gyre

More on Gyre
gyre | Origin and meaning of gyre by Online Etymology Dictionary

Of course, the Romans copied everything the Greeks did so their language emulated Greek meanings.

Proverbs 8:27 from Latin Vulgate:

"quando praeparabat caelos aderam quando certa lege et gyro vallabat abyssos."

Word: gyro

Latin Definition of gyro
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...qoEuV-5AamhFrD5urdpvAmjhvETguk1pQ7sYuuQZ5-k9s

Isaiah 40:22 from Latin Vulgate:

Word: gyrus

Latin Definition of gyrus
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...jvQHlv71wa8Egb4VPQlMbipbLwGV-MKe7RlhCzk3eNH5c

Phrase: gyrus terrarum

Latin definition of gyrus terrarum
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/d...3RbUZVfP-yNmYYCcvqVnsanLs9XstGJLMcyeDJrCbKldM

"globe of the earth"!!

Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon, H2329: "חוּג m. a circle, sphere, used of the arch or vault of the sky, Pro.8:27; Job 22:14; of the world, Isa.40:22."
View attachment 255136

Here is 4th century Bishop Ambrose giving a reading from Isaiah 40:22.

"And further on: 'Who sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts, who stretcheth out the heavens as an arch?' Who, then, ventures to put his knowledge in the same plane with that of God?” (St.Ambrose, "Hexameron" The Fathers Of The Church series translated by John J. Savage, p.231).
View attachment 255137

The Douay-Rheims Bible is an English translation of Jerome's Latin Vulgate:

"It is he that sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts: he that stretcheth out the heavens as nothing, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in" (Douay-Rheims Bible).

The English "circle" is meant to be understood as a 3D circle as seen from space. Prophecy is not cultural...its Divine.

So here you fake source is REFUTED!

Here's a bonus for you.

Clement of Alexandria (150-215 A.D.)

Clement was a 2nd century church father. The following is taken from his writing called The Instructor, which I’m citing from the very last page of Book III entitled To The Paedagous:

“And when the seasons, in their circling course,
Winter and summer, spring and autumn, each
Should come, according to well-ordered plan;
Out of a confused heap who didst create
This ordered sphere, and from the shapeless mass
Of matter didst the universe adorn;--
Grant to me life, and be that life well spent,
Thy grace enjoying; let me act and speak
In all things as Thy Holy Scriptures teach”
(Ante-Nicene Christian Library, Vol.1).

And the Holy Scriptures taught Clement about the sphere of the earth and the circular course (rotation) of the 4 seasons

Origen (185-254 A.D.)

Origen of Alexandria was born in the 2nd century but his ministry would make him a 3rd century man. He is an Ante-Nicene church father who wrote On First Principles, which is the very first book on Theology ever written by a Christian. The following quotation is taken from the John C. Cavadini edition.

“Certainly what some say of this world, that it is corruptible because it was made, and yet does not go to corruption because the will of God, who made it and preserves it from being mastered by corruption, is stronger and more powerful than corruption, may more rightly be believed of that world which we have above called a “fixed” sphere, because by the will of God it is in no way “subject to corruption” (cf.Rom 8:20, 21), for the reason that it has not admitted the causes of corruption" (On First Principles, Book II, Chapter III, p.113).

Origen continues:

". . . . and the entire condition of the world we know, in which the spheres of the planets are said to be, is left behind and superseded, there exists above that sphere which is called "fixed" an abiding place for the pious and blessed, in as it were a "good land" and a "land of the living," which the "meek" and gentle will receive for an inheritance. To this land or earth belongs that heaven which, with its more magnificent circuit, surrounds and confines it, and this is the true heaven and the first to be so called" (On First Principles, Book II, Chapter III, p.114).

The spheres of the planets is a clear reference that Origen's reading of Scripture revealed that our earth is a sphere.

Clement of Rome (A.D, 35 - 99).

Clement of Rome is the first early church father who would become a successor to the Apostles. He was consecrated by the Apostle Peter and mentioned favorably by the Apostle Paul in Philippians 4:3,

"And I urge you also, true companion, help these women who labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the Book of Life."

Clement's name is written in the Book of Life. Clement is believed by some scholars to have been the author of the Book of Hebrews based on the grammatical style. While this is uncertain, what is certain is that Clement gives us clear insight to what 1st century Christians believed.

Clement affirms the Scriptural teaching of the round world. All quotations are taken from The Ancient Christian Writers series Vol.1. His Epistle To The Corinthians was written in 97 A.D. which is only one or two years after the Apostle John penned Revelation!

“Thus, by His transcendent might He established the heavens, and by His incomprehensible understanding He ordered them: the earth He separated from the water now encircling it, and firmly grounded it on the unshakable foundation of His own will” (33:3).

The next quote comes from chapter 20 and here Clement clearly states the earth rotates:

"Day and night complete the revolution ordained by Him, and neither interferes in the least with the other" (20: 2).

He's obviously reading Job 26:10; 38:14.

Moreover, Clement was a believer in what was called antipodes -- people of opposite earth, who's feet walk opposite to ours.

“The ocean, impassable for men, and the worlds beyond it are governed by the same decrees of the Master” (20:8).

What Clement is saying here is that the earth is a sphere and the other side of the earth is peopled.

Origen (185-254 A.D.) explains Clement's comment:

“Clement indeed, a disciple of the apostles, mentions those whom the Greeks call “people of the opposite earth,” and speaks of other parts of the world which none of our people can reach, nor can any of those who live there cross over to us; and these parts themselves he called “worlds,” when he says, “The ocean is impassable to men, and the worlds beyond it are governed by the same ordinances of God the Ruler” (On First Principles, Chapter III verse 6).

Clement is reading oikouménē from Greek manuscripts which is how he arrives to the antipode conclusion. For there is no oikouménē without antipodes and you don't get antipodes on a flat earth!!

Now you are just spamming the thread. There is nothing wrong with those sources. Richard Carrier is a well respected scholar, published numerous times in peer reviewed journals. But since you can't deal with his arguments you simply go back to your old failed tactics. By the way, you do realize that Carrier's area of study was the scientific beliefs of that time. You would be hard pressed to find a more qualified expert on this matter.

FEZZILLA · Apr 21, 2019

Subduction Zone said:
Now you are just spamming the thread. There is nothing wrong with those sources. Richard Carrier is a well respected scholar, published numerous times in peer reviewed journals. But since you can't deal with his arguments you simply go back to your old failed tactics. By the way, you do realize that Carrier's area of study was the scientific beliefs of that time. You would be hard pressed to find a more qualified expert on this matter.

Yeah you know the problem with Richard Carrier? He's not dead. He's still alive. I won't listen to anybody on a subject like this who's still living. I quoted from Saints who have been dead for 2000 to 1500 years. They all agree with the globular reading of Scripture. So why should I or anyone else listen to some modern liberal scholars when the ancient church refutes their position?

You clearly are just hear to brawl. I refuted the false witness and you want to act like a child throwing a temper tantrum and say "No you didn't!"

Look, he didn't even use the right Greek word. He deliberately misinterpreted the word to mean flat earth when in reality gyro/gyrus/gyre holds the same meaning as chuwg which is an earth that is not only just circular (synonym for orb/sphere/globe) but it also moves around in a circuit. The Latin word gyrus is taken from the Greek gyros.

I also listed quotes from Clement of Rome who read antipodes in the Bible. He read oikouménē from Scripture and there is no oikouménē without antipodes -- and you cannot have antipodes on a flat earth! So both oikouménē & antipodes are words that are married together and cannot be separated one from the other. Greek words are subject to Greek thought and the Septuagint reflects Greek definitions, not made up definitions from 21st century liberal scholars. The fact that tebel and oikouménē both carry "the habitable globe"does reflect on the globular meaning of chuwg and gyros.

You have no argument other than to respond with silly comments in the likes that angry children make. You can dig for more atheist propaganda from the 21st century but who cares about the angry opinion columns from people who did not live during the times the Bible was written and translated. We have an Apostolic tradition going back 2000+ years and all you have are opinions from false witnesses of the 21st century!

The Christian faith is a great deal older than 19 years, 4 months and 21 days!

Strathos · Apr 21, 2019

A discussion is pointless when both sides won't give any credit to each others' sources.

Speedwell · Apr 21, 2019

Strathos said:
A discussion is pointless when both sides won't give any credit to each others' sources.

We haven't even got sources for the most important part of it, namely that there is a massive 200 year old atheist conspiracy to convince people that the Bible teaches a flat Earth.

Subduction Zone · Apr 21, 2019

FEZZILLA said:
Yeah you know the problem with Richard Carrier? He's not dead. He's still alive. I won't listen to anybody on a subject like this who's still living. I quoted from Saints who have been dead for 2000 to 1500 years. They all agree with the globular reading of Scripture. So why should I or anyone else listen to some modern liberal scholars when the ancient church refutes their position?

You clearly are just hear to brawl. I refuted the false witness and you want to act like a child throwing a temper tantrum and say "No you didn't!"

Look, he didn't even use the right Greek word. He deliberately misinterpreted the word to mean flat earth when in reality gyro/gyrus/gyre holds the same meaning as chuwg which is an earth that is not only just circular (synonym for orb/sphere/globe) but it also moves around in a circuit. The Latin word gyrus is taken from the Greek gyros.

I also listed quotes from Clement of Rome who read antipodes in the Bible. He read oikouménē from Scripture and there is no oikouménē without antipodes -- and you cannot have antipodes on a flat earth! So both oikouménē & antipodes are words that are married together and cannot be separated one from the other. Greek words are subject to Greek thought and the Septuagint reflects Greek definitions, not made up definitions from 21st century liberal scholars. The fact that tebel and oikouménē both carry "the habitable globe"does reflect on the globular meaning of chuwg and gyros.

You have no argument other than to respond with silly comments in the likes that angry children make. You can dig for more atheist propaganda from the 21st century but who cares about the angry opinion columns from people who did not live during the times the Bible was written and translated. We have an Apostolic tradition going back 2000+ years and all you have are opinions from false witnesses of the 21st century!

The Christian faith is a great deal older than 19 years, 4 months and 21 days!

The "saints" that you speak of were for the most part Romans. They knew That The Earth was a sphere so they used their knowledge to form a biased interpretation of that verse. We know what words the Hebrew scholars used when they translated Hebrew into Greek. And just as the OT verse refers to a Flat Earth since they used the term for a flat circlecircles, they chose the Greek word for a flat circle as well. The translation is not on your side.

Subduction Zone · Apr 21, 2019

Strathos said:
A discussion is pointless when both sides won't give any credit to each others' sources.

Actually I give credit for the source that matters of the OP. I agree with his Hebrew translation that he gave and then ran away from.

Subduction Zone · Apr 21, 2019

Speedwell said:
We haven't even got sources for the most important part of it, namely that there is a massive 200 year old atheist conspiracy to convince people that the Bible teaches a flat Earth.

Yes, I think that I will ignore everything else and ask about that for now.

FEZZILLA · Apr 21, 2019

Strathos said:
A discussion is pointless when both sides won't give any credit to each others' sources.

Christians should never accept any liberal sources as credible. We are discussing an issue of ecclesiastical knowledge of the ancient church. Lets ask ancient Christians instead of 21st century liberal scholars who's only goal and purpose is to poison people with how they change the meanings of Scripture to cause apostasy in the church. By no means do I as a Christian have to accept atheist sources about an issue only the church is qualified to discuss. I've supplied the most trusted Christian sources, ancient and modern, and they all say globe earth. So the debate is long over as there is no flat earth tradition in Christianity. Atheists just don't want to accept the fact that the Holy Bible was the first historical document to mention the spherical shape of the earth. So they got to make up lies to make them feel better about being atheists.

Strathos · Apr 21, 2019

FEZZILLA said:
Christians should never accept any liberal sources as credible. We are discussing an issue of ecclesiastical knowledge of the ancient church. Lets ask ancient Christians instead of 21st century liberal scholars who's only goal and purpose is to poison people with how they change the meanings of Scripture to cause apostasy in the church. By no means do I as a Christian have to accept atheist sources about an issue only the church is qualified to discuss. I've supplied the most trusted Christian sources, ancient and modern, and they all say globe earth. So the debate is long over as there is no flat earth tradition in Christianity. Atheists just don't want to accept the fact that the Holy Bible was the first historical document to mention the spherical shape of the earth. So they got to make up lies to make them feel better about being atheists.

I'm talking about both of you BTW.

Subduction Zone · Apr 21, 2019

FEZZILLA said:
Christians should never accept any liberal sources as credible. We are discussing an issue of ecclesiastical knowledge of the ancient church. Lets ask ancient Christians instead of 21st century liberal scholars who's only goal and purpose is to poison people with how they change the meanings of Scripture to cause apostasy in the church. By no means do I as a Christian have to accept atheist sources about an issue only the church is qualified to discuss. I've supplied the most trusted Christian sources, ancient and modern, and they all say globe earth. So the debate is long over as there is no flat earth tradition in Christianity. Atheists just don't want to accept the fact that the Holy Bible was the first historical document to mention the spherical shape of the earth. So they got to make up lies to make them feel better about being atheists.

Why not? There is nothing wrong with "liberal" sources and many Christians are liberals. It is those sources that answered many of the questions about the Bible. And no. Those scholars valued the truth. Something that most apologists don't value at all.

And no, the Bible in no way claims that the Earth is spherical. The verse that you choose clearly states it is flat if anything. This is based upon usage of the term at the time. It is based upon how it was translated by Hebrew scholars into Greek. You know that if it said that the Earth was flat that that would mean that the Bible was wrong. But we know that all of Genesis is allegory at best. We know that there was no Exodus as portrayed in the Bible. That they believed the Earth was flat back then should be the least of your concerns.

Subduction Zone · Apr 21, 2019

Strathos said:
I'm talking about both of you BTW.

I knew that, and I do accept his Hebrew sources. His sources that I do not accept were not of the time. They were people that spoke a different language. The only advantage that they had was that they knew that the Earth was round and they had to force the Bible to fit their beliefs rather than reading is as it was written. That is why I do not accept those sources. Nor should we. The best sources are those of the people of that time. And for that we both use the same definition of "chuwg".

FEZZILLA · Apr 21, 2019

Subduction Zone said:
The "saints" that you speak of were for the most part Romans. They knew That The Earth was a sphere so they used their knowledge to form a biased interpretation of that verse. We know what words the Hebrew scholars used when they translated Hebrew into Greek. And just as the OT verse refers to a Flat Earth since they used the term for a flat circlecircles, they chose the Greek word for a flat circle as well. The translation is not on your side.

Clement of Rome was consecrated by the Apostle Peter the lead the church of Rome. Clement is favorably mentioned by the Apostle Paul in Philippians 4:3, as being in the Book of Life. The Gospel is not a Jew thing only. Romans had a right to be saved as well.

But if you want a Jewish source I can provide a contemporary of Clement who's words on day 2 of creation are almost exactly identical in scope.

Clement of Rome (A.D, 35 - 99).

“Thus, by His transcendent might He established the heavens, and by His incomprehensible understanding He ordered them: the earth He separated from the water now encircling it, and firmly grounded it on the unshakable foundation of His own will” (Ancient Christian Writers, Vol.1., Epistle To The Corinthians, 33:3).

Clement here is referring to two Biblical passage. The first passage is Genesis 1:6-13 which covers Days 2 & 3 of creation -- "the water now encircling it" is understood as the waters encircling a sphere. Clement was also well known for his belief in antipodes and you cannot have antipodes on a flat earth or the half-sphere of a snow-cone.
Secondly, Clement refers to Job 26:7 when he says "and firmly grounded it on the unshakable foundation of His own will."
Job 26:7 can only correspond to a globe earth.

Flavius Josephus (37-100 A.D.)

Josephus was a Jewish historian who wrote the Antiquity of the Jews in 70 A.D. We have seen how the earliest of Christian church fathers understood Scripture and now we will see how a Jewish historian understood Genesis.

“After this, on the second day, he placed the heaven over the whole world, and separated it from the other parts; and he determined it should stand by itself. He also placed a crystalline [firmament] round it, and put it together in a manner agreeable to the earth, and fitted it for giving moisture and rain, and for affording the advantage of dews” (Antiquity 1:30).

Here again we see Day 2 of creation mention along with Job 26:7.

First, “After this, on the second day, he placed the heaven over the whole world,"

Josephus says God placed the heaven over the whole world. But what does Josephus mean by "over"? He is referring to the first part of Job 26:7,

"He stretches out the North over empty space,"

Josephus continues:

"and he determined it should stand by itself."

Josephus now completing his reference to Job 26:7,

"and suspends the earth over nothing at all."

And last, "He also placed a crystalline [firmament] round it,"

Josephus is describing how God, on the second day, placed a crystalline [firmament] around the earth. This earth, not being held up by turtles or elephants or a whale, is determined by God to stand by itself (Job 26:7).

You cannot place a firmament around the whole earth if the earth is flat or even a half-sphere. So here in the 1st century, both Josephus and Clement of Rome, refute 21st century liberal scholars.. Did Josephus know how to read Hebrew? Sure he did! He not only knew how to read Hebrew but was also a highly educated historian. So all these modern arguments which fool many have no weight in light of what we read from 1st century Josephus and Clement of Rome!

Of course, Jesus was a Jew and He said the earth is a sphere. If that don't settle it then I don't know what will because Jesus is God..."the word made flesh"...and when God says the earth is round it means He always said the earth is round! God created the earth so He knows it's shape.

Matthew 24:14,

Greek: "και κηρυχθησεται τουτο το ευαγγελιον της βασιλειας εν ολη τη οικουμενη εις μαρτυριον πασιν τοις εθνεσιν και τοτε ηξει το τελος"

Word: οικουμενη

The Greek word οικουμενη is the equivalent to the Hebrew word H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl.

The word οικουμενη goes hand and hand with antipodes. Clement of Rome's comment I posted earlier was about antipodes. Now Jesus mentions οικουμενη.

English: "And this good news of the kingdom shall be proclaimed in the whole habitable globe for a witness to all nations: and then shall the end come" (1876 Julia Smith Bible).

Latin Vulgate: "et praedicabitur hoc evangelium regni in universo orbe in testimonium omnibus gentibus et tunc veniet consummatio"

Word: Orbe/Orb, from G3625 οἰκουμένη oikouménē

The phrase "universo orbe" means the whole globe and can also be expressed in Latin as totius terrae or the more common orbis terrarum/orbis terrae depending on the sense its used in.

Latin Definition of Orbis
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...2s7d55QALJevCOhCOmfgdh22Yqd-NzuVi7jxxZFL2BRmk

Latin Definition for orbis terrarum
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...zaegb8MzTHUzgigZS_ysu_Aiwwe54SCCPfzrEZHuN6Ks0

Latin Definition for orbis terrae
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...91Cpr2I-mcDSjpkVV8R2cVdGsoEYSJPAu1c97ZbayUWH8

How to say "world globe" in Latin.
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...hynVH9yCeww5EvRvglyfbdwxHg2p87nDw4Y63J_GYn-zU

Psalm 19:4,

English: "Their line went forth into all the earth, and their words into the ends of the habitable globe. In them he set a tent for the sun" (H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl - 1876 Julia E. Smith Bible).

This would also translate into the 4th century Latin Vulgate as,

"et apparuerunt fontes aquarum et revelata sunt fundamenta orbis terrarum ab increpatione tua Domine ab inspiratione spiritus irae tuae"

Romans.10:18 quotes from Isaiah 40:21 and Psalm 19:4,

English: "But I say, Have they not heard? Surely, in all the earth went out their sound, and their words to the end of the habitable globe" (1876 Julia Smith Bible).

The first clause: "But I say, Have they not heard?" alludes to Isaiah 40:21,

"Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?"

The second clause follows the first clause of Isaiah 40:21 but quotes from Psalm 19:4 instead of Isaiah 40:22.

There are two Greek words in Romans 10:18 which are translated from the Hebrew H776 אֶרֶץ ʼerets & H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl. The words are G1093 γῆ gē, & G3625 οἰκουμένη oikouménē, used as Greek equivalents to H776 אֶרֶץ ʼerets & H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl.

Greek: "αλλα λεγω μη ουκ ηκουσαν μενουνγε εις πασαν την γην εξηλθεν ο φθογγος αυτων και εις τα περατα της οικουμενης τα ρηματα αυτων"

Latin Vulgate: "sed dico numquid non audierunt et quidem in omnem terram exiit sonus eorum et in fines orbis terrae verba eorum"

Phrase: orbis terrarum, from G3625 οἰκουμένη oikouménē and G1093 γῆ gē

So the oldest and most reliable ancient Bibles agree the earth is round.

Hebrew: H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl
Greek: G3625 οἰκουμένη oikouménē
Latin: orbis terrae/ orbis terrarum

Remember, The Greek Septuagint was translated by 72 Jewish elders.

Subduction Zone · Apr 21, 2019

FEZZILLA said:
Clement of Rome was consecrated by the Apostle Peter the lead the church of Rome. Clement is favorably mentioned by the Apostle Paul in Philippians 4:3, as being in the Book of Life. The Gospel is not a Jew thing only. Romans had a right to be saved as well.

But if you want a Jewish source I can provide a contemporary of Clement who's words on day 2 of creation are almost exactly identical in scope.

Clement of Rome (A.D, 35 - 99).

“Thus, by His transcendent might He established the heavens, and by His incomprehensible understanding He ordered them: the earth He separated from the water now encircling it, and firmly grounded it on the unshakable foundation of His own will” (Ancient Christian Writers, Vol.1., Epistle To The Corinthians, 33:3).

Clement here is referring to two Biblical passage. The first passage is Genesis 1:6-13 which covers Days 2 & 3 of creation -- "the water now encircling it" is understood as the waters encircling a sphere. Clement was also well known for his belief in antipodes and you cannot have antipodes on a flat earth or the half-sphere of a snow-cone.
Secondly, Clement refers to Job 26:7 when he says "and firmly grounded it on the unshakable foundation of His own will."
Job 26:7 can only correspond to a globe earth.

Flavius Josephus (37-100 A.D.)

Josephus was a Jewish historian who wrote the Antiquity of the Jews in 70 A.D. We have seen how the earliest of Christian church fathers understood Scripture and now we will see how a Jewish historian understood Genesis.

“After this, on the second day, he placed the heaven over the whole world, and separated it from the other parts; and he determined it should stand by itself. He also placed a crystalline [firmament] round it, and put it together in a manner agreeable to the earth, and fitted it for giving moisture and rain, and for affording the advantage of dews” (Antiquity 1:30).

Here again we see Day 2 of creation mention along with Job 26:7.

First, “After this, on the second day, he placed the heaven over the whole world,"

Josephus says God placed the heaven over the whole world. But what does Josephus mean by "over"? He is referring to the first part of Job 26:7,

"He stretches out the North over empty space,"

Josephus continues:

"and he determined it should stand by itself."

Josephus now completing his reference to Job 26:7,

"and suspends the earth over nothing at all."

And last, "He also placed a crystalline [firmament] round it,"

Josephus is describing how God, on the second day, placed a crystalline [firmament] around the earth. This earth, not being held up by turtles or elephants or a whale, is determined by God to stand by itself (Job 26:7).

You cannot place a firmament around the whole earth if the earth is flat or even a half-sphere. So here in the 1st century, both Josephus and Clement of Rome, refute 21st century liberal scholars.. Did Josephus know how to read Hebrew? Sure he did! He not only knew how to read Hebrew but was also a highly educated historian. So all these modern arguments which fool many have no weight in light of what we read from 1st century Josephus and Clement of Rome!

Of course, Jesus was a Jew and He said the earth is a sphere. If that don't settle it then I don't know what will because Jesus is God..."the word made flesh"...and when God says the earth is round it means He always said the earth is round! God created the earth so He knows it's shape.

Matthew 24:14,

Greek: "και κηρυχθησεται τουτο το ευαγγελιον της βασιλειας εν ολη τη οικουμενη εις μαρτυριον πασιν τοις εθνεσιν και τοτε ηξει το τελος"

Word: οικουμενη

The Greek word οικουμενη is the equivalent to the Hebrew word H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl.

The word οικουμενη goes hand and hand with antipodes. Clement of Rome's comment I posted earlier was about antipodes. Now Jesus mentions οικουμενη.

English: "And this good news of the kingdom shall be proclaimed in the whole habitable globe for a witness to all nations: and then shall the end come" (1876 Julia Smith Bible).

Latin Vulgate: "et praedicabitur hoc evangelium regni in universo orbe in testimonium omnibus gentibus et tunc veniet consummatio"

Word: Orbe/Orb, from G3625 οἰκουμένη oikouménē

The phrase "universo orbe" means the whole globe and can also be expressed in Latin as totius terrae or the more common orbis terrarum/orbis terrae depending on the sense its used in.

Latin Definition of Orbis
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...2s7d55QALJevCOhCOmfgdh22Yqd-NzuVi7jxxZFL2BRmk

Latin Definition for orbis terrarum
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...zaegb8MzTHUzgigZS_ysu_Aiwwe54SCCPfzrEZHuN6Ks0

Latin Definition for orbis terrae
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...91Cpr2I-mcDSjpkVV8R2cVdGsoEYSJPAu1c97ZbayUWH8

How to say "world globe" in Latin.
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...hynVH9yCeww5EvRvglyfbdwxHg2p87nDw4Y63J_GYn-zU

Psalm 19:4,

English: "Their line went forth into all the earth, and their words into the ends of the habitable globe. In them he set a tent for the sun" (H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl - 1876 Julia E. Smith Bible).

This would also translate into the 4th century Latin Vulgate as,

"et apparuerunt fontes aquarum et revelata sunt fundamenta orbis terrarum ab increpatione tua Domine ab inspiratione spiritus irae tuae"

Romans.10:18 quotes from Isaiah 40:21 and Psalm 19:4,

English: "But I say, Have they not heard? Surely, in all the earth went out their sound, and their words to the end of the habitable globe" (1876 Julia Smith Bible).

The first clause: "But I say, Have they not heard?" alludes to Isaiah 40:21,

"Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?"

The second clause follows the first clause of Isaiah 40:21 but quotes from Psalm 19:4 instead of Isaiah 40:22.

There are two Greek words in Romans 10:18 which are translated from the Hebrew H776 אֶרֶץ ʼerets & H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl. The words are G1093 γῆ gē, & G3625 οἰκουμένη oikouménē, used as Greek equivalents to H776 אֶרֶץ ʼerets & H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl.

Greek: "αλλα λεγω μη ουκ ηκουσαν μενουνγε εις πασαν την γην εξηλθεν ο φθογγος αυτων και εις τα περατα της οικουμενης τα ρηματα αυτων"

Latin Vulgate: "sed dico numquid non audierunt et quidem in omnem terram exiit sonus eorum et in fines orbis terrae verba eorum"

Phrase: orbis terrarum, from G3625 οἰκουμένη oikouménē and G1093 γῆ gē

So the oldest and most reliable ancient Bibles agree the earth is round.

Hebrew: H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl
Greek: G3625 οἰκουμένη oikouménē
Latin: orbis terrae/ orbis terrarum

Remember, The Greek Septuagint was translated by 72 Jewish elders.
View attachment 255154
View attachment 255158 View attachment 255159
View attachment 255160

TLDR. Let's try not to spam your own tread. I do not see anything from Clement declaring a spherical Earth and Josephus appears to support a flat one. You can't put a "firmament" on the Earth. Firmament beliefs tend to be flat Earth beliefs.

And where is the proof that "atheists" were behind Flat Earth beliefs? You have yet to show that.

FEZZILLA · Apr 22, 2019

Subduction Zone said:
TLDR. Let's try not to spam your own tread. I do not see anything from Clement declaring a spherical Earth and Josephus appears to support a flat one. You can't put a "firmament" on the Earth. Firmament beliefs tend to be flat Earth beliefs.

And where is the proof that "atheists" were behind Flat Earth beliefs? You have yet to show that.

I've posted all of Clement's globe earth verses. There are three of them. Here are two of them that are on this page.

Clement says earth rotates (Job 26:10; 38:14),

"Day and night complete the revolution ordained by Him, and neither interferes in the least with the other" (20: 2).

“The ocean, impassable for men, and the worlds beyond it are governed by the same decrees of the Master” (20:8).

Clement here just said the earth is a sphere with antipodes.

Origen (185-254 A.D.) explains Clement's comment:

“Clement indeed, a disciple of the apostles, mentions those whom the Greeks call “people of the opposite earth,” and speaks of other parts of the world which none of our people can reach, nor can any of those who live there cross over to us; and these parts themselves he called “worlds,” when he says, “The ocean is impassable to men, and the worlds beyond it are governed by the same ordinances of God the Ruler” (On First Principles, Chapter III verse 6).

Clement's comment is about antipodes and you cannot have antipodes on a flat earth!

St.Augustine actually did not believe antipodes existed. He knew the earth was round but did not believe the other side of opposite earth was peopled.

“Thus, by His transcendent might He established the heavens, and by His incomprehensible understanding He ordered them: the earth He separated from the water now encircling it, and firmly grounded it on the unshakable foundation of His own will” (Ancient Christian Writers, Vol.1., Epistle To The Corinthians, 33:3).

Can't encircle anything on a half-sphere snow-cone. The waters do encircle the earth. So there is simply nothing wrong with his statement.

We can nit-pick and try to rip apart ancient terminology and expressions but its not gonna change anything. The Bible says we live on a round, spherical earth. This explains why there is no flat earth tradition in Christianity.

Subduction Zone · Apr 22, 2019

FEZZILLA said:
I've posted all of Clement's globe earth verses. There are three of them. Here are two of them that are on this page.

Clement says earth rotates (Job 26:10; 38:14),

"Day and night complete the revolution ordained by Him, and neither interferes in the least with the other" (20: 2).

“The ocean, impassable for men, and the worlds beyond it are governed by the same decrees of the Master” (20:8).

Clement here just said the earth is a sphere with antipodes.

Origen (185-254 A.D.) explains Clement's comment:

“Clement indeed, a disciple of the apostles, mentions those whom the Greeks call “people of the opposite earth,” and speaks of other parts of the world which none of our people can reach, nor can any of those who live there cross over to us; and these parts themselves he called “worlds,” when he says, “The ocean is impassable to men, and the worlds beyond it are governed by the same ordinances of God the Ruler” (On First Principles, Chapter III verse 6).

Clement's comment is about antipodes and you cannot have antipodes on a flat earth!

St.Augustine actually did not believe antipodes existed. He knew the earth was round but did not believe the other side of opposite earth was peopled.

“Thus, by His transcendent might He established the heavens, and by His incomprehensible understanding He ordered them: the earth He separated from the water now encircling it, and firmly grounded it on the unshakable foundation of His own will” (Ancient Christian Writers, Vol.1., Epistle To The Corinthians, 33:3).

Can't encircle anything on a half-sphere snow-cone. The waters do encircle the earth. So there is simply nothing wrong with his statement.

We can nit-pick and try to rip apart ancient terminology and expressions but its not gonna change anything. The Bible says we live on a round, spherical earth. This explains why there is no flat earth tradition in Christianity.

No, it appears that you are merely reinterpreting his work after the fact. Those verses work just as well with a Flat Earth. And Muslims are past masters at that in regards to the Qu'ran. If you are not convinced by Muslims you should not expect others to be convinced by you.

Edit: And we are still waiting for evidence for your defamatory claim against atheists. Do you have anything or were you merely making things up?

lasthero · Apr 22, 2019

Subduction Zone said:
And where is the proof that "atheists" were behind Flat Earth beliefs? You have yet to show that.

I’d like to see this, too. You keep blaming things on atheists, but you never show any actual evidence for it.

Speedwell · Apr 22, 2019

FEZZILLA said:
Atheists just don't want to accept the fact that the Holy Bible was the first historical document to mention the spherical shape of the earth.

Many Christians don't either. But if all you are doing is trying to use prescience to "prove" the Bible, why tell lies about atheists?

Freodin · Apr 22, 2019

Speedwell said:
Many Christians don't either. But if all you are doing is trying to use prescience to "prove" the Bible, why tell lies about atheists?

Because it absolves him from having to face the flaws in his belief system. If you can blame all your problems, all your troubles, all that is wrong onto "them"... you can keep on happily living ever after in the belief that you are right in all points.

AV1611VET · Apr 22, 2019

Hi, Fez!

I love your posts!

FEZZILLA said:
Atheists just don't want to accept the fact that the Holy Bible was the first historical document to mention the spherical shape of the earth.

I'm going to disagree with this on principal.

I believe there are thousands, if not tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of documents that were written in the past, but crumbled to dust and are no longer with us.

These documents would mention the shape of the earth as being round, just as the Bible does, since people could easily travel over the horizon on foot, since it is only 3-4 miles away in any direction.

FEZZILLA said:
So they got to make up lies to make them feel better about being atheists.

I'm going to agree with this one.

Since the days of Nimrod, people started writing their versions of the Flood story quite different from what is in the Bible.

Satan is the author of confusion, and he is good at getting his students to elevate these lies to the same status as the Bible.

Isaiah 40:22 -- "Globe of the Earth"

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