Argument for God's existence.

createdtoworship · Apr 21, 2019

cvanwey said:
Are you going to provide the link to the AMA or not? Are you also going to provide the posted response, issued by the AMA, whom received such documentation, or not? I'm tired of jumping through hoops, and playing along with your shenanigans. I've asked three times now. Do you not have them?

I will not provide any evidence until I feel I am speaking to someone who is at least willing to learn. You made a positive claim that the earth was spherical, but you have never tested that theory. then you make the outrageous claim that you do not use faith regarding the earth being spherical. Are you truly being honest with yourself, that you do not live by faith on a regular basis? I proved you use faith to believe the earth is spherical so, please prove that you are open minded and confess your faith. I believe it is important to come to terms with the faith we all use daily. Then I will answer all of your questions to the best of my ability.

gaara4158 · Apr 21, 2019

gradyll said:
I will not provide any evidence until I feel I am speaking to someone who is at least willing to learn. You made a positive claim that the earth was spherical, but you have never tested that theory, then you make the outrageous claim that you do not use faith regarding the earth being spherical. Are you truly being honest with yourself, that you do not live by faith on a regular basis? I proved you use faith to believe the earth is flat, and have faith in second hand sources regarding the matter. Please prove that you are open minded and confess your faith, then I will answer all of your questions.

Can you provide evidence for God without flailing and blustering about proof for everyday facts we all accept? Or is obfuscating integral to your apologetics?

cvanwey · Apr 21, 2019

gradyll said:
I will not provide any evidence until I feel I am speaking to someone who is at least willing to learn. You made a positive claim that the earth was spherical, but you have never tested that theory. then you make the outrageous claim that you do not use faith regarding the earth being spherical. Are you truly being honest with yourself, that you do not live by faith on a regular basis? I proved you use faith to believe the earth is spherical so, please prove that you are open minded and confess your faith. I believe it is important to come to terms with the faith we all use daily. Then I will answer all of your questions to the best of my ability.

If find your responses interesting...

- I am willing to take a look at the AMA article, in which (you) first stated exists.
- I am also willing to take a look at the AMA response/conclusion, in which you may have inferred you also have.
- I informed you, from the get-go, that if there was a documented case of regrowth of a human limb, after prayer, I would be more than interested; as I currently don't find prayer remotely close to any compelling 'evidence' FOR a God(s).
- I would assume we both agree the earth is spherical, for various reasons. Hence, the reason I used such an example; just like I also assume we both agree 2 + 2 =4 - (mentioned from the same Russell quote).

At this point, I'm going to start assuming you may not have the documentation, in which you stated you do have. Unless you start producing as such. And if you don't, then as I stated, in my first response to you, stop accusing others of not producing evidence, when you are either not willing to produce any yourself, or refuse to as such...

ToddNotTodd · Apr 21, 2019

gaara4158 said:
If it’s such a simple matter of post history, show me the link where I asked not for evidence, but proof. Right now I think you’re lying.

But it doesn’t even matter if I did that or not. Argument from hypocrisy is a logical fallacy, and you’re committing it.

It doesn’t matter if anyone has evidence for any alternative explanation for the universe. Alternatives were only brought up in response to your false dichotomy fallacy. You’re making an argument for the existence of God, so you’re the one who needs to provide evidence.

So just in this tiny pocket of discussion you’re managing to squeeze in the false dichotomy fallacy, the tu quoque fallacy, and blatant dishonesty. Is this really the example you want to set?

Well, it’s helping me quite a bit...

The funny thing is, if this is similar to dealings with other apologists I’ve had over the years, the poster is completely unconcerned with the effect of their postings. I think it must be pride that keeps them from seeing the inevitable detrimental outcome.

createdtoworship · Apr 21, 2019

cvanwey said:
If find your responses interesting...

- I am willing to take a look at the AMA article, in which (you) first stated exists.
- I am also willing to take a look at the AMA response/conclusion, in which you may have inferred you also have.
- I informed you, from the get-go, that if there was a documented case of regrowth of a human limb, after prayer, I would be more than interested; as I currently don't find prayer remotely close to any compelling 'evidence' FOR a God(s).
- I would assume we both agree the earth is spherical, for various reasons. Hence, the reason I used such an example; just like I also assume we both agree 2 + 2 =4 - (mentioned from the same Russell quote).

At this point, I'm going to start assuming you may not have the documentation, in which you stated you do have. Unless you start producing as such. And if you don't, then as I stated, in my first response to you, stop accusing others of not producing evidence, when you are either not willing to produce any yourself, or refuse to as such...

so you can't prove the earth is spherical, a basic scientific fact. You live by faith each and every single day, yet you condemn others who are different. You need a good self checking. As I said numerous times, I will provide all evidence I have as soon as you admit you live by faith every day. Until you do this, I don't think this conversation is positive anymore. So I will bow out. I am no longer going to address your posts in this thread anymore. Again I have offered numerous times to fulfill my end of the agreement. But seeing you are not willing to fulfill your side, we are done. Thank you for at least being civil and not resorting to name calling or insults. It is sad that I have to commend atheists who don't use ad hominems. But that is the state of affairs here on CF. thanks for your posts. In two weeks I will unblock you again. I hope we can chat in other thread.

createdtoworship · Apr 21, 2019

gaara4158 said:
Can you provide evidence for God without flailing and blustering about proof for everyday facts we all accept? Or is obfuscating integral to your apologetics?

can you provide evidence the earth is spherical? Or any other known fact of your choosing. No, yet you expect that of others. It is hypocritical and wrong. So I am done talking to everyone in this thread until someone admits they use faith, we all know you do. But it needs to be confessed publicly. Until that part is confessed or some other topic is addressed from a previous post from some new poster, I am done with this thread. And by the way I look at it as a hands down victory for Christians. So feel free to post among yourselves, however I will not further reply to your posts.

Moral Orel · Apr 21, 2019

gradyll said:
So I am done talking to everyone in this thread until someone admits they use faith, we all know you do. But it needs to be confessed publicly.

I have faith in some things. Now will you answer some of the many posts I've addressed to you that you've ignored?

gaara4158 · Apr 21, 2019

gradyll said:
can you provide evidence the earth is spherical? Or any other known fact of your choosing. No, yet you expect that of others. It is hypocritical and wrong. So I am done talking to everyone in this thread until someone admits they use faith, we all know you do. But it needs to be confessed publicly. Until that part is confessed or some other topic is addressed from a previous post from some new poster, I am done with this thread. And by the way I look at it as a hands down victory for Christians. So feel free to post among yourselves, however I will not further reply to your posts.

No need for you to reply further, I got my answer.

createdtoworship · Apr 21, 2019

gaara4158 said:
No need for you to reply further, I got my answer.

thanks for debating with me, I am planning another thread soon. It's about how the church has positively affected the modern civilization.

feel free to join in:

How the Church has positively affected the modern civilization

Moral Orel · Apr 21, 2019

So to sum up this thread: there's no logical reason to believe anything, everything is based on blind faith, and there can be no proof or evidence for any conclusion. Any bit of evidence can't be proven either, so everything must be thrown out. Believe whatever you wish because every conclusion is just as likely as every other conclusion.

Of course the irony is that the original argument has to be thrown out. This "argument for God's existence" isn't evidence of anything since nothing about it can be proven. No evidence to support it can be proven either, and so on.

So what's the point in discussing anything about anything anywhere?

cvanwey · Apr 21, 2019

gradyll said:
so you can't prove the earth is spherical, a basic scientific fact. You live by faith each and every single day, yet you condemn others who are different. You need a good self checking. As I said numerous times, I will provide all evidence I have as soon as you admit you live by faith every day. Until you do this, I don't think this conversation is positive anymore. So I will bow out. I am no longer going to address your posts in this thread anymore. Again I have offered numerous times to fulfill my end of the agreement. But seeing you are not willing to fulfill your side, we are done. Thank you for at least being civil and not resorting to name calling or insults. It is sad that I have to commend atheists who don't use ad hominems. But that is the state of affairs here on CF. thanks for your posts. In two weeks I will unblock you again. I hope we can chat in other thread.

Since I'm 'blocked' for two weeks, I guess only others will read this...

I'm going to take this as an admission that you may not have such a AMA administered article. What else can I assume? You first tried to muddy the waters, by implying we all use 'faith' in the same way. Well, I've been down this road before. Not going to go chasing your provided rabbit trails.

As I stated earlier, attempting to equivocate 'faith' in the observed evidence that most of us share, verses, an 'extreme' assertion, such as an MD publishing formal documentation of a restored limb after prayer to the AMA, are vastly different.

Thus, as stated in my original response, please stop accusing others of not providing evidence, when you are not providing any yourself.

Furthermore, if you felt such evidence was compelling, you would have been chomping at the bit to provide as such.

I've been provided with evidence, which has changed my perception of many things. I was hoping you might of had some. O well...

ToddNotTodd · Apr 22, 2019

gradyll said:
Until that part is confessed or some other topic is addressed from a previous post from some new poster, I am done with this thread. And by the way I look at it as a hands down victory for Christians.

So the truth is he doesn’t care about truth. He doesn’t care that this thread is actually detrimental to creating converts. It’s only about his “winning”.

He can claim “victory” while I show this thread to people and convince them there’s no good reason to be a Christian...

Odd terms for a victory.

createdtoworship · Apr 22, 2019

ToddNotTodd said:
So the truth is he doesn’t care about truth. He doesn’t care that this thread is actually detrimental to creating converts. It’s only about his “winning”.

He can claim “victory” while I show this thread to people and convince them there’s no good reason to be a Christian...

Odd terms for a victory.

I win when God wins. You guys lost this topic before you started, that's why I picked it. I fully didn't expect you to prove an origin to the universe, how could you? But it was fun trying. I provided all the evidence in the first page. And then ten pages of empty athiest posts, didn't change that there was evidence posted in the first five posts that was irrefutable. I don't expect you guys to change ( that is not the point), I expect christians to read this thread and get encouraged that they too can refute athiesm with little effort. It really didnt take much.

cvanwey · Apr 22, 2019

gradyll said:
I win when God wins. You guys lost this topic before you started, that's why I picked it. I fully didn't expect you to prove an origin to the universe, how could you? But it was fun trying. I provided all the evidence in the first page. And then ten pages of empty athiest posts, didn't change that there was evidence posted in the first five posts that was irrefutable. I don't expect you guys to change ( that is not the point), I expect christians to read this thread and get encouraged that they too can refute athiesm with little effort. It really didnt take much.

Look, I'll replace a simple concept in brackets, to produce the same exact 'argument'/conclusion:

'I win when (Thor) wins. You guys lost this topic before you started, that's why I picked it. I fully didn't expect you to prove an origin to the universe, how could you? But it was fun trying. I provided all the evidence in the first page. And then ten pages of empty athiest posts, didn't change that there was evidence posted in the first five posts that was irrefutable. I don't expect you guys to change ( that is not the point), I expect (Thor believers) to read this thread and get encouraged that they too can refute athiesm with little effort. It really didnt take much.'

'It really didn't take much.'

Moral Orel · Apr 22, 2019

gradyll said:
I fully didn't expect you to prove an origin to the universe, how could you?

We never needed to. That you don't understand that shows you lost this argument before you posted it. All we have to do to refute your argument is hypothesize an origin that is logically possible. That's it. And that's easy, so we did.

ToddNotTodd · Apr 22, 2019

gradyll said:
I win when God wins. You guys lost this topic before you started, that's why I picked it. I fully didn't expect you to prove an origin to the universe, how could you?

Like we’ve said over and over, we don’t have to “prove” an origin to the universe. If you understood the burden of proof, you’d understand that. In fact, if you understood the topic even a little bit, you’d know we haven’t “lost”.

But thanks for reinforcing the idea that you only care about what you perceive as “winning”, and not about the affect your posts have on people susceptible to deconverting.

FYI, the woman I’ve been talking to is seriously reconsidering her faith, thanks in part to threads like this one.

But I’m sure you’ll have an excuse for that...

gaara4158 · Apr 22, 2019

gradyll said:
I win when God wins. You guys lost this topic before you started, that's why I picked it. I fully didn't expect you to prove an origin to the universe, how could you? But it was fun trying. I provided all the evidence in the first page. And then ten pages of empty athiest posts, didn't change that there was evidence posted in the first five posts that was irrefutable. I don't expect you guys to change ( that is not the point), I expect christians to read this thread and get encouraged that they too can refute athiesm with little effort. It really didnt take much.

It seems you don’t need us at all for this, gradyll. You ignore all our points, put words in our mouths, and declare victory when things don’t work out for you. Maybe you should consider just putting on a puppet show.

createdtoworship · Apr 22, 2019

gaara4158 said:
It seems you don’t need us at all for this, gradyll. You ignore all our points, put words in our mouths, and declare victory when things don’t work out for you. Maybe you should consider just putting on a puppet show.

I addressed every post you gave sir. I have summarized your viewpoints two or three times, and you never corrected me for putting words in your mouth at the time, because I didn't really do that at all. I understand being a sore loser, I do. But we are adults here. We should not get emotional over it. When I lost debates over the years, I allowed it to change me, as my profile says, sometimes for the better, other times for the worse. It's about being open minded. As I have said numerous times, you are not really here to learn. I am actually not sure why you are on a christian forum at all. You don't want to be christian or to learn christianity. You had a problem in the past, an unmet expectation of the church where it didn't work out for you, so you desire to destroy other peoples faith. But you are frustrated when someone calls your bluff.

I understand why you are here. We all do. But lets make something of it. I created a new thread here, a brand new one. A blank slate. I appreciate that you and one or two of the other atheists have been polite, and that is all I ask. Feel free to post on this thread:

How the Church has positively affected the modern civilization

ToddNotTodd · Apr 22, 2019

gradyll said:
As I have said numerous times, you are not really here to learn. I am actually not sure why you are on a christian forum at all. You don't want to be christian or to learn christianity. You had a problem in the past, an unmet expectation of the church where it didn't work out for you, so you desire to destroy other peoples faith. But you are frustrated when someone calls your bluff

Pretending to read minds seems dishonest...

createdtoworship · Apr 22, 2019

ok, ok I give in, I will post some more on this thread. There are no other threads open at the moment that I am interested in:

I read this in a book today, I liked how he said it better than the way I say it, so lets see if this causes any discussion:

"
If Atheism is true, there is no foundational reason why one would expect the universe to be orderly and rational (or even comprehendible at any great depth by a rational mind; i.e., to any level greater than needed for our day-to-day meager survival).

However, if Christian Theism is true, there is a Rational Mind (God) behind the Universe. This Rational Mind created the universe, and with a purpose in mind (to provide an environment for rational free-willed creatures such as us to make rational choices to help determine their characters, to make them/us a Joy to be with for Eternity).

In such a view, the Universe itself is God’s art-project and that is why it is so beautiful.

And the Universe is an expression of God’s Mind (which is Rational). And so the universe is orderly and rational.

So, Christian Theism provides a Rational Foundation for an Orderly and Rational Universe that can be comprehended at a deep level by Rational Creatures (such as ourselves).

So, Christian Theism actually provides a better explanation (than atheism does) for the orderliness and rationality of (and in) the universe.

And therefore, Christian Theism provides a better foundation for Science than atheism does.

"
above quote from God
&
Atheist Objections

(130+ Atheist Objections
with Responses
by an Ex-Atheist Scientist)
by
John M. Kinson

Argument for God's existence.

In the grip of grace

Gen Alpha Dad

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Gen Alpha Dad

In the grip of grace

Proud Citizen of Moralton

Well-Known Member

Iconoclast

In the grip of grace

Well-Known Member

Proud Citizen of Moralton

Iconoclast

Gen Alpha Dad

In the grip of grace

Iconoclast

In the grip of grace

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