Is it impossible to lose your salvation?

Kenny'sID · Apr 21, 2019

Gods not mad said:
sure.
repentance is an english word not in use during the time of Christ.
english was not created at babel by God but by peolpe with lets say not the best intentions.
repentance in our culture has a works backing to it. tell God your sorry and do your best to never do it again is this scriptural.
side note just so we stay on topic-confession of sin is great before God but we are not to be hypocritical before the Lord as in matthew 15:21-28 as the Lord would not deal with her till she quite trying to present herself as a jew but as a gentile.
repentance translated in greek is metanoia which means change of mind ok so lets add it in.
matthew 4:17 From that time on Jesus began to preach, "CHANGE YOUR MIND, for the kingdom of heaven has come near."
luke 5:32 I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to CHANGE OF MIND.

i could go on and on with this but we are to bring our thinking into alignment with the thinking of Gods that is repentance and that only. so faith and faith alone is to be in his finished work. its a mind and heart change and not works. a work would be trying to change your own behavior by trying to discipline ones self to not do a particular sin, this will never produce the fruit we desire because we as fallen beings and are incapable of overcoming sin. the Lord has overcomed and him only, so our repentance is accepting that grace which he has provided as a free gift and believing on it.

me personally in repentance.
lets say i have a sin i'm dealing with lust,addiction whatever if i try to stop just by disciplining myself it does not stop but sometimes even gets worse (if people are honest they will admit that is is true) but i know when i say Lord Jesus you do not have an issue with lust and as you are in heaven so am i in this world(for the kingdom heaven has come near) now my trust is in the one who has overcome and that sin diminishes and is dealt with by the master. the kingdom is Christ the word fully God and man. that is repentance.

john 10:28-29
Jesus gives them eternal life not by works but by faith or that mind set in who he is and no one can snatch them out of the fathers hand.
ephesians 2:8-9
we are saved by grace it is a gift and not by works.
ephesians 1:13
included in Christ upon hearing the gospel of salvation (faith through metanoia) and are marked with a seal.
revelation 3:5
how are we victorious through works of trying or by faith through metanoia. and are names will never be blotted out why? because we can never earn what is a free gift so how could we lose it. once he owns you he owns you and will complete that work in you because that is his purpose not ours. once again we do good works because he first loved us but those good works can never add to or assist in the salvation process because you and i can not save ourselves so when we try to it is a slap in the face of the one who paid the price.

i am osac and people on the other side will not answer my questions or scriptures i put forward as a whole but i try to answer whatever people ask me to the best of my ability.

just a side note when the priest would perform the blood sacrifice it was for the coming years sins not for the previous years sins. Christ being our high priest has cleansed us who are in faith with him for past present and future sins.

In order to save some time, is your whole point there we need not repent as in stop living in sin?

The Foss · Apr 21, 2019

Dorothy Mae said:
If they don’t love him and the father without turning back, he leaves. There is such a thing as quenching the Holy Spirit. A fire quenched is OUT. It’s not a permanent arrangement but a relationship.
We stop following his lead because it’s too narrow or the pleasures of this world start to mean more. We jump out of his hand. We turn back. It happens.
Does the indwelling mean all choice is gone? Is the Holy Spirit unable to leave? Do you see a relationship is not set in cement?

Thank you for you post Dorothy, I agree that the Holy Spirit can be quenched, but How does the Father leave a believer? "If they don’t love him and the father without turning back, he leaves." (Rms 5-5 God’s love has been abundantly poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us) ....if they are a believer and Christs eternal spirit is in them, then in order for the Father to leave the believer they would need to be condemned and judged? Either a person has Christs' nature or they don't. Who does the judging or condemning in order for the Father to leave?? Jn 5- 24 “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, the person who hears My word [the one who heeds My message], and believes and trusts in Him who sent Me, has (possesses now) eternal life [that is, eternal life actually begins—the believer is transformed], and does not come into judgment and condemnation, but has passed [over] from death into life.
How can the Father leave a believer ???? "We jump out of his hand. We turn back. It happens." I too have seen people who say they believe but have no root in themselves and only endure for a time. Were they transformed in the first place??? Can they condemn themselves if they are transformed? Rms 8-38 For I am convinced [and continue to be convinced—beyond any doubt] that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present and threatening, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the [unlimited] love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
How is salvation removed from a believer???? I don't know?

MDC · Apr 21, 2019

fhansen said:
If you don't understand that under the New Covenant man is still obligated to be righteous to the greatest extent he can with whatever grace he's been given, working out his salvation, obeying God's will, obeying His commands and commandments, doing those works prepared for us in Christ Jesus as per Eph 2:10 or Matt 21:31-46, for "the least of these", obedience and works born of the love that God has wrought in him, then you won't understand the gospel or Phil 3-or the purpose of faith.

the New Covenant gives us a new way, the right way, to do it; it doesn't excuse us from doing it. That would be a perversion of the Gospel

The gospel teaches that man is without the righteousness God requires of him. Utterly depraved and sinful. There is nothing man can offer God to appease His wrath upon him because of his sin and rebellion. Man stands guilty before a Holy and Righteous God. The righteousness God accepts is Christ’s righteousness alone. The only appeasement is the blood of Christ. So who’s righteous before God? Only those found in Christ and for His sake alone! Not those who believe their “righteous” deeds obligates Gods favor some how. The elect desire righteousness and seek to live according to it. But cling to Christ as their righteousness and hope

The Foss · Apr 21, 2019

HTacianas said:
If a person could not fall away, the writer to the Hebrews would not have warned them in such stern terms to avoid it:

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,

Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

Heb 6:6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God;

Heb 6:8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner.

Yes, Hebrews Ch 6 & 10. Do these chapters speak to believers about losing their salvation/falling away? If these chapters do speak to believers, then do believers condemn themselves and place themselves under judgement? How is this done? Jn 5-24 “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, the person who hears My word [the one who heeds My message], and believes and trusts in Him who sent Me, has (possesses now) eternal life [that is, eternal life actually begins—the believer is transformed], and does not come into judgment and condemnation, but has passed [over] from death into life. .....A believer would need to pass from life into death, by judgement. ???

HTacianas · Apr 21, 2019

The Foss said:
Yes, Hebrews Ch 6 & 10. Do these chapters speak to believers about losing their salvation/falling away? If these chapters do speak to believers, then do believers condemn themselves and place themselves under judgement? How is this done? Jn 5-24 “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, the person who hears My word [the one who heeds My message], and believes and trusts in Him who sent Me, has (possesses now) eternal life [that is, eternal life actually begins—the believer is transformed], and does not come into judgment and condemnation, but has passed [over] from death into life. .....A believer would need to pass from life into death, by judgement. ???

Rev 20:12 - And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Kenny'sID · Apr 21, 2019

MDC said:
If you believe salvation or eternal life can be lost then it’s automatic you’re relying upon your righteous works as the basis for saving you in the end.

Just saying it doesn't make it true.

Why is it automatic? Because OSASr's like to not only pretend we don't rely on faith, as well, but they try to deceive others right here on the boards, faith is not a part of our beliefs? Why do they consistently make that untrue claim? Because, for good reason, they are very insecure aboiut their belief salvation cannot be lost, so they have to deceive themselves/others in order to help substantiate in their minds, their claims that salvation cannot be lost. IOW, as I've said so many times, the only way to support an untruth is with more of the same.[/QUOTE]

MDC said:
So please tell me, where does Christ and His merits fall into your soteriology?

Right along side of it. Faith without works is dead. It's all right here if you want to read it: James 2:14-26 However, I already know what you will do, not read it, nor comment on it...always the way, and I'll prove it if you ask.

MDC said:
The gospel teaches eternal life rest in Christ alone apart from mans works

It's already been clearly show in the prior scripture, securing eternal life consists of both faith and works, and it's clear to many of us, if anyone does not get that from that scripture alone, they have chosen to blind themselves...I know of no other way to put it.

So, can you please explain how that scripter doesn't include works, or how we can leave that part out as a condition of eternal life, even after reading the scripture?

Will you be one to be caught holding a lifeless, limp, useless dead faith when you face the father on Judgment day?

Is not what Christ himself claims, part of the gospel you speak of? I ask because he says something altogether different in the following scripture, in that it rests on doing good as well as believing. Can you read it please and tell me if you understand it to say something different than what I claim, and if so, what does it say?

I knew this was my new favorite scripture against OSAS when OSASr's refused to comment on posts based on it.

John 5:28-29 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

frogoon234 · Apr 21, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
Right along side of it. Faith without works is dead. It's all right here if you want to read it: James 2:14-26 However, I already know what you will do, not read it, nor comment on it...always the way, and I'll prove it if you ask.

it says works (2 or more good actions). As long as you as a Christian have committed atleast 2 (but not necessarily more than 2) good actions in your entire life and have done a small thing for the poor at sometime in your life then you can't lose your salvation. Basically this is saying don't be an idiot or a biblical fool but at the same time try to serve Jesus Christ. Jesus takes no pleasure when any one dies (that includes second death). If you accept Jesus's sacrifice on the cross at any point in your life you are saved for all eternity from eternally from eternal suffering. It takes a lawyer to beat a lawyer sometimes.

Lets concentrate on ourselves. The equation for a person's character has 100s of variables and each variable is weighted differently. The output of this equation is different at each point in a persons life.

frogoon234 · Apr 21, 2019

*you are saved for all eternity from eternally suffering.

The Foss · Apr 21, 2019

HTacianas said:
Rev 20:12 - And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

I agree, Judgement is for the dead, those without the nature of Christ. Jn 5-24

frogoon234 · Apr 21, 2019

The Foss said:
I agree, Judgement is for the dead, those without the nature of Christ. Jn 5-24

Its not a sin to be physically dead. Its a sin to be spiritually dead. I would assume you know that?

frogoon234 · Apr 21, 2019

@The Foss
i responded to James chapter 2. What did you think?

frogoon234 · Apr 21, 2019

frogoon234 said:
@The Foss
i responded to James chapter 2. What did you think?

Sorry that was meant towards Kenny's ID

Kenny'sID · Apr 21, 2019

frogoon234 said:
it says works (2 or more good actions).

When you're ready to stop insulting both mine for thinking I'll buy such a thing or your intelligence for the same reason, get back with me, but until then, our time would be better spent doing nothing.

frogoon234 · Apr 21, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
When you're ready to stop insulting both mine for thinking I'll buy such a thing or your intelligence for the same reason, get back with me, but until then, our time would be better spent doing nothing.

I think OSAS won the argument today. Try again another day brother. Jesus Christ is the lawyer for the christian (you and me) so don't think i'm going to live in fear of your bad theology.

"it says works (2 or more good actions). As long as you as a Christian have committed atleast 2 (but not necessarily more than 2) good actions in your entire life and have done a small thing for the poor at sometime in your life then you can't lose your salvation. Basically this is saying don't be an idiot or a biblical fool but at the same time try to serve Jesus Christ. Jesus takes no pleasure when any one dies (that includes second death). If you accept Jesus's sacrifice on the cross at any point in your life you are saved for all eternity from eternally from eternal suffering. It takes a lawyer to beat a lawyer sometimes.

Lets concentrate on ourselves. The equation for a person's character has 100s of variables and each variable is weighted differently. The output of this equation is different at each point in a persons life."

klutedavid · Apr 21, 2019

HTacianas said:
Rev 20:12 - And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

Ttalkkugjil · Apr 21, 2019

The Foss said:
I agree, Judgement is for the dead, those without the nature of Christ. Jn 5-24

It's God's purpose to give life.

The conditions for this gift's receiving are simple. They're that a person trust in Jesus the Savior.

By accepting God, the believer goes from spiritual death into life, into having the life which Christ brought.They've entered into communion with God, into the life which this union implies. This thought Jesus brings out with emphasis.

The time which God had selected had come with Christ. Christ's hour for calling the spiritually dead back into life had struck.

Many a member of the Jewish nation was hearing Jesus. By such hearing, all such persons were getting the gift of life as their own.

God has life in Godself. Jesus has life in himself. Christ has received life as his possession. Jesus can give life, for he himself is Life. That's one of God's mysteries.

The proof for Jesus' power is his authority to exercise judgment. This authority is his in his capacity as Christ.

Those who won't accept the life which he offers in the Gospel will come under condemnation. Christ will have to pronounce condemnation upon them. All of this proves that Christ's God, with powers.

The Foss · Apr 22, 2019

frogoon234 said:
@The Foss
i responded to James chapter 2. What did you think?

I think James’s message to the believer is that we are saved for the purpose of doing good works, that is: God working in and through us His will and purpose for His own pleasure.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 22, 2019

The Foss said:
Thank you for you post Dorothy, I agree that the Holy Spirit can be quenched, but How does the Father leave a believer? "If they don’t love him and the father without turning back, he leaves." (Rms 5-5 God’s love has been abundantly poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us) ....if they are a believer and Christs eternal spirit is in them, then in order for the Father to leave the believer they would need to be condemned and judged?

You are describing Gods love being abundantly poured out as a legal state. That is, you assume this is some kind of legal right that can never be withdrawn. It is not so. If we refuse to love and forgive others as the love of God being abundantly poured DEMANDS then the Holy Spirit in us leaves to some degree. It’s not a legal claim we can make. We cannot at the love of God is abundantly in us and abuse others. This is not a permanent state God owes us independent from our choices.

Either a person has Christs' nature or they don't.

Why? Do you know that having Christs nature must mean you are like Jesus in all you do and say. Does that accurately describe you? Does it describe those in your church? Are you like Jesus? If not then his nature is not yours by faith.

Who does the judging or condemning in order for the Father to leave??

The holy Spirit who doesn’t want to reside in a house where wrong is done.

Jn 5- 24 “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, the person who hears My word [the one who heeds My message], and believes and trusts in Him who sent Me, has (possesses now) eternal life [that is, eternal life actually begins—the believer is transformed], and does not come into judgment and condemnation, but has passed [over] from death into life.
How can the Father leave a believer ???

We are transformed (changed) to the degree we BEHAVE different, not to the degree we CLAIM we are. We cannot day to God and man “I’m transformed” and expect God and man to agree when nothing we do or refrain from doing has changed. The Bible says we can quench the Spirit within. Do you believe this?

“ We jump out of his hand. We turn back. It happens." I too have seen people who say they believe but have no root in themselves and only endure for a time.

Jesus didn’t say they merely “say” they believe. He says they do believe. You have to change his words to fit your theology.

Were they transformed in the first place???

Is everyone in your church transformed? Do you all check to see if they are so you know their faith is real? Do you see the trap this is? This is subtly works salvation. There is no allowing for choices, either God’s or man’s. Your theology requires God to allow anyone into heaven no matter how they lived if they once believed and men can fool themselves into thinking they transformed no matter how they actually behave. Problem is the whole world has the right to say we are believers by how we love each other. So in your theology that’s not necessary, one can legally claim one loves others without anyone seeing any difference.

Can they condemn themselves if they are transformed?

huh? It’s rare anyone condemns themselves for any reason.

Rms 8-38 For I am convinced [and continue to be convinced—beyond any doubt] that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present and threatening, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the [unlimited] love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

He was not convinced that a man cannot shipwreck his faith. He was not convinced he needn’t discipline himself lest he himself BECOME disqualified.

How is salvation removed from a believer???? I don't know?

Salvation is not a legal entitlement a man has and can never lose. Your post is treating as a right that God has to legally recognize no matter how a man treats other or whether the man learns to love God.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 22, 2019

The Foss,
I will show you a better way. When we surrender to Jesus repenting of our wrong we have done and receive his forgiveness, the Holy Spirit comes in a small degree to live in us.

Like any relationship, we have a part to play in how deep it goes. And like any relationship it can be lost altogether. But followers of Jesus don’t live in fear of this any more than all married people wake up fearing the relationship will be over today. No marriage hinges on one deed you cannot control.

God will not stop us but He won’t do a spiritual lobotomy so we no longer have a choice. The 70 left Jesus and he didn’t stop them. Judas left and he didn’t stop him. He asked Peter if he was going to leave too. He didn’t seem to think Peter couldn’t. Peter didn’t say he thought he couldn’t. What he says is what I say, where else shall I go? He has the words of eternal life. You see, I follow Him because I love Him, not because of a fear of hell. Eternal life for me is knowing Him. If there were no Heaven, I’d still follow Him.

The Foss · Apr 22, 2019

Thanks Dorothy, do you believe that God dwells in us?

Is it impossible to lose your salvation?

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