Baptists abstain from alcohol but Christ created 6 barrels of it

Dave-W

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We know leaven is symbolic of sin in the Bible, and that only unleavened — unfermented bread can be served at Communion, so it would be preposterous to think that it would be okay to serve fermented grape juice — alcoholic wine.
IF leaven was EXCLUSIVELY a symbol of sin, why was the grain offerings at Pentecost/Shavuot REQUIRED to be leavened?
 
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Dave-W

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At the same time He said "be not drunk with wine which is dissipation, but be filled with the Holy Spirit.
Actually that was Paul. Eph 5.18
 
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eleos1954

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There is a difference between a drinker and a drunkard (I'm pretty sure this point was addressed above).

Yes, see my post above. This is exactly the argument I've heard all my life.

You do realize that fermentation occurs naturally in grape juice, and the only way to stop it is a process of pasteurization (to kill the natural yeasts)? Nobody understood this in the first century. If anybody had "grape juice" stored at all, then very quickly they had wine (and if they weren't deliberate in their winemaking, then it wasn't very good wine either).

Really? You're making His refusal to drink on the cross about His refusal to drink alcohol?

In the context of the OP which was:

Baptists abstain from alcohol but Christ created 6 barrels of it
referring to the wedding feast ...

It was freshly made by Jesus himself ... new wine ... non-fermented


"You do realize that fermentation occurs naturally in grape juice, and the only way to stop it is a process of pasteurization (to kill the natural yeasts)?"

Do you realize? ...

What are the facts about fermented drinks in the Bible? | Bibleinfo.com

"Really? You're making His refusal to drink on the cross about His refusal to drink alcohol?"

Psalm 21

21They poisoned my food with gall

and gave me *vinegar to quench my thirst.

vinegar from chamets -

to be sour or leavened
leaven -
from zeo; ferment


 
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eleos1954

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JackRT

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I don't think that the Bible even mentions beer. That would have been the common drink of the Jewish peasantry with the more expensive wine being reserved for special occasions. Unless you lived near a spring or well, a low alcohol beer would have been what you could drink safely because water went bad so quickly. Each household would brew their own "small beer" just as in Medieval times in Europe.
 
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ewq1938

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Matthew 11:19 19The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they (the Pharisees) say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard..."

The Pharisees frequently accused Jesus of being a winebibber, drunkard and glutton. They also said He had a devil and blasphemed God, among other things. We know He wasn’t a glutton or demon-possessed blasphemer! So if these things are not true, why should we assume that our Lord was a drinker as indicated by the Pharisees, a group of Jesus’ most-outward adversaries well known for their questionable theology?


So they accused him of being a drunkard, so we should assume he didn't drink wine. They accused him of gluttony, should we assume he didn't eat food? Or perhaps they exaggerated their accusations, and he did eat and drink wine but not to excess?
 
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GodLovesCats

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As an associated issue - should we serve real wine for communion?

If Jesus ordained this why do we not do it?

Becayse Hesus specified the "blood" drink was wine, I always assumed it was alcoholic and is what people should drink during cburch communions. I read Pentacostals drink grape juice instead. That seems wrong to me because it is not Biblical.
 
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ewq1938

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Becayse Hesus specified the "blood" drink was wine, I always assumed it was alcoholic and is what people should drink during cburch communions. I read Pentacostals drink grape juice instead. That seems wrong to me because it is not Biblical.

You don't even know the right grapes or recipe used to make the wine Jesus drank and had at communion so it's impossible top replicate the wine and bread exactly. It's all symbolism anyways, doesn't matter if it's wine or grape juice...it's the meaning of it and having communion that matters.
 
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GodLovesCats

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Getting drunk is the problem, if you drink some and you can control yourself and don't have problems with past addictions or something there is nothing wrong, actually it is said that is good for your health.

Only one glass a day is healthy, not the whole bottle.
 
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GodLovesCats

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You don't even know the right grapes or recipe used to make the wine Jesus drank and had at communion so it's impossible top replicate the wine and bread exactly. It's all symbolism anyways, doesn't matter if it's wine or grape juice...it's the meaning of it and having communion that matters.

We know it was unleavened bread, so churches give people bits of crackers.
 
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ewq1938

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We know it was unleavened bread, so churches give people bits of crackers.


Sure but that's very different from modern crackers. They ate hand made unleavened bread cooked by fire, and locally created wine never refrigerated...none of this is being reproduced to match what was there for that supper which is my point...it doesn't have to be exact because it's all symbolic.
 
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JackRT

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At that time was usually fermented to its maximum of about 16%. It was at this point that the alcohol actually kills the yeast. This was known in the Bible as strong drink. At that percentage it could be stored quite a while or shipped a distance. However it was usually drunk cut with water to bring the alcohol content down to between 5 and 10% according to taste. Beer was drunk even more widely than wine. Distillation was still a thousand years in the future. Grape juice was only available a few weeks at harvest time because the wild yeasts would act quickly in the climate of the Middle East.
 
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eleos1954

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So they accused him of being a drunkard, so we should assume he didn't drink wine. They accused him of gluttony, should we assume he didn't eat food? Or perhaps they exaggerated their accusations, and he did eat and drink wine but not to excess?

Bible Drinking Alcohol

Jesus lived a pure life upon this earth; he was without sin, and there is nothing that even implies that he indulged in drinking intoxicating beverages. Such action is not compatible with his pure character and teaching.

Romans 14

21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything to cause your brother to stumble.

Proverbs 2

1Wine is a mocker, strong drink is a brawler, and whoever is led astray by them is not wise.

Proverbs 23

29Who has woe? Who has sorrow? Who has contentions? Who has complaints?
Who has needless wounds? Who has bloodshot eyes?
30Those who linger over wine,
those who go to taste mixed drinks.

31Do not gaze at wine while it is red,
when it sparkles in the cup
and goes down smoothly.

32In the end it bites like a snake
and stings like a viper.
33Your eyes will see strange things,
and your mind will utter perversities.

34You will be like one sleeping on the high seas
or lying on the top of a mast:
35“They struck me, but I feel no pain!
They beat me, but I did not know it!

When can I wake up
to search for another drink?”

The wine which Christ provided for the feast, and that which He gave to the disciples as a symbol of His own blood, was the pure juice of the grape. To this the prophet Isaiah refers when he speaks of the new wine ‘in the cluster,’ and says, ‘Destroy it not: for a blessing is in it’.

Isaiah 65:8

8 This is what the LORD says: "As when juice is still found in a cluster of grapes and people say, 'Don't destroy it, there is still a blessing in it,' so will I do in behalf of my servants; I will not destroy them all.

Reinterated here:

1 Corinthians 10

16 Is not the cup of blessing that we bless a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?

Summary

The "good wine" Jesus made at Canaan was "good" not because of its high alcoholic content but because it was fresh, unfermented grape-juice. The "new wine" Jesus commended through the parable of the new wineskins is unfermented (either boiled or filtered), because not even new wineskins could withstand the pressure of the gas produced by fermenting new wine. Jesus’ description of Himself as "eating and drinking" does not imply that He used alcoholic wine but that He associated with people freely at their meals and elsewhere.

The "fruit of the vine" that Christ commanded to be used as a memorial of His redeeming blood was not fermented wine, fermented wine of which in the Scripture often represents human depravity, corruption and divine indignation, but unfermented and pure grape juice, a fitting emblem of Christ’s untainted blood shed for the remission of our sins.

Question?

IF it's OK with Jesus for one to drink fermented (alcohol - strong drink) would He not be placing a stumbling block (temptation) before mankind knowing our weaknesses?

James 1:13 --"Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone."
 
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JackRT

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Proverbs 2:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is a brawler, and whoever is led astray by them is not wise.

Do you know what "strong drink" is?

The wine which Christ provided for the feast, and that which He gave to the disciples as a symbol of His own blood, was the pure juice of the grape.

The Last Supper was in the spring. The only time when unfermented grape juice would be available was in the few weeks of grape harvest in the fall. In that climate and without refrigeration grape juice would start fermenting from wild yeast within a matter of days.
 
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