Questioning my Protestant heritage

MarkRohfrietsch · Apr 21, 2019

Jason0047 said:
I even see the gathering of fellowship today as an unbiblical practice (although God can still use popular church organizations for His ultimate good purposes and plans); But nowhere does the Bible teach that we have to build a big building and have one man preach to us (with him having authority over us). Nowhere does the Bible teach that we can invite unbelievers to hang out with us to worship until they are ready to accept Christ via an altar call. For what fellowship does light have with darkness? Anyways, check out these threads at CF here to learn more (with Scripture):

God's Order in the Church vs Man's Order
The Pastor King (New)

But if you desperately need to have fellowship with others, the only Trinitarian Sola Scriptura church I found that believes in: "Grace + Works of Faith = Salvation" (from what I have seen) is:

Christ’s Sanctified Holy Church: Christ's Sanctified Holy Church-Holiness unto the Lord

Unfortunately I do not live near any of these churches to at least check them out in person. While I prefer house fellowship (Based on Scripture), I am at least curious to see how they operate (Seeing they have the same view of salvation as me as taught plainly in the Bible).

Yet the Bible tells us that the early Christians "gathered together daily for the breaking of bread"; Christ Himself spent time socializing and teaching unbelievers; and it was often His closest followers that denied him.

The Church is not to be introverted; we are to go and teach the whole world.

I read posts like this and truly I question what Bible is being read, as these ideas don't fit with any of the Bibles; protestant or Catholic, that I have read.

An altar call is not scriptural, as this is a personal act; it becomes about self rather than God; works based righteousness and salvation; that says we can cooperate in God's grace. Nothing could be further from the truth. Through original sin and free will which resulted in the fall in Eden, we can only rebel against God. St. Paul in his letter to the Church at Ephesus makes this abundantly clear. We do works because of our faith, not to gain salvation, but because we have salvation!

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

How do we come to faith if we have no part in it?

Martin Luther explains this very well in his explanation of the Third Article of the Apostles Creed:

The Third Article.
Of Sanctification.

I believe in the Holy Ghost; one holy Christian Church, the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. Amen.

What does this mean?

Answer:
I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith; even as He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian Church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith; in which Christian Church He forgives daily and richly all sins to me and all believers, and at the last day will raise up me and all the dead, and will give to me and to all believers in Christ everlasting life. This is most certainly true.

To quote the first line of the Athanasian Creed:

"This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved."

Apologetic_Warrior · Apr 21, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
Calvin actually didn't have that much power in Geneva, Geneva was ruled by a town council, I believe. I think they actually kicked him out, in fact, before he learned to temper himself under Martin Bucer's guidance. Bucer was a significant Reformed theologian in his own right, he was almost a mediating influence between Lutherans and the Reformed, in fact.

Yes the town council, the Libertines were a cruel bunch and opponents of Calvin.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 21, 2019

MarkRohfrietsch said:
Yet the Bible tells us that the early Christians "gathered together daily for the breaking of bread"; Christ Himself spent time socializing and teaching unbelievers; and it was often His closest followers that denied him.

I am not against fellowship. I said that the gathering of fellowship that happens in churches is not the biblical form of fellowship. I also provided links to two other CF thread links that would have explained this. In any event, for your information, I believe in house fellowship with believers only. Yes, there were times that Paul went out to evangelize by speaking publicly, but this was not fellowship.

You said:
The Church is not to be introverted; we are to go and teach the whole world.

Again, evangelizing is not the same as fellowship amongst believers only.

You said:
I read posts like this and truly I question what Bible is being read, as these ideas don't fit with any of the Bibles; protestant or Catholic, that I have read.

I can say the same for your belief, but making such statements without any biblical proof does not mean anything. I did provide two CF threads that has plenty of Scripture.

You said:
An altar call is not scriptural, as this is a personal act; it becomes about self rather than God; works based righteousness and salvation; that says we can cooperate in God's grace. Nothing could be further from the truth. Through original sin and free will which resulted in the fall in Eden, we can only rebel against God. St. Paul in his letter to the Church at Ephesus makes this abundantly clear. We do works because of our faith, not to gain salvation, but because we have salvation!

So you believe in Universalism or Calvin's Unconditional Election?
I was criticizing the idea that unbelievers can hang out in fellowship with believers in a church building singing praise to God with them until they are ready to actually follow the Lord. Are there no unbelievers that come to the faith within your church? That was my point, and it really is not about the altar call. It is about having fellowship with those who really do not believe yet.

You said:
Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

No. Paul is not negating our free will choice to accept the Lord under God's drawing.
Ephesians 2:8-9 is talking about "Initial Salvation" or "Ultimate Salvation" and it is condemning "Works Alone Salvationism" (Without God's grace).
Also, receiving a gift is not a work as your are implying, either.
Gifts can be received or they can be refused and it is not a work in view of the context of what Paul is saying here. While I believe the Bible teaches that God draws us, it also makes it clear that choosing God is our responsibility in the life that we live. Otherwise, why have a judgment? For we are told to choose this day in whom we will serve (Joshua 24:15).
Jesus desired to gather Jerusalem like a hen gathers it's baby chicks underneath it's wings, but they would not allow it. Meaning, the Lord is not forcing anything upon anyone.
For God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Besides, I highly doubt others think that receiving gifts is a work. Do people think the receiving of gifts at Christmas time is a chore? Do kids get upset because it is too much work to come downstairs and open a gift?

You said:
How do we come to faith if we have no part in it?

That statement does not compute in light of tons of verses in the Bible.

Free will is a choice that leads you down a path that determines which road you want to take.

Free Will in the Bible:

#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

#10. Genesis 4:7 KJV -
"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

#11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

#12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.

You said:
Martin Luther explains this very well in his explanation of the Third Article of the Apostles Creed:

The Third Article.
Of Sanctification.

I believe in the Holy Ghost; one holy Christian Church, the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. Amen.

What does this mean?

Answer:
I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith; even as He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian Church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith; in which Christian Church He forgives daily and richly all sins to me and all believers, and at the last day will raise up me and all the dead, and will give to me and to all believers in Christ everlasting life. This is most certainly true.

To quote the first line of the Athanasian Creed:

"This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved."

First, Paul condemns the idea that we are to say we are followers after any other believer in 1 Corinthians 3. For the Corinthians were wrongfully saying they were of Paul, and Apollos. Yet, Paul said previously, was Paul crucified for you? Second, I have no idea what you mean by Sanctification. Is that holy living? Or do you think it means something else? If Sanctification does mean holy living, how would you define holy living? My guess is that it is not in view of the holy living we see in the Bible, because you are promoting a glass with an alcoholic beverage (beer) in it with Luther saying to "sin boldly" on it (This means: That one is telling a person to sin more intensely; Whether it has another secret meaning that you imply it means does not matter. Most will take this phrase to mean what it says plainly.).

MarkRohfrietsch · Apr 21, 2019

Jason0047 said:
I am not against fellowship. I said that the gathering of fellowship that happens in churches is not the biblical form of fellowship. I also provided links to two other CF thread links that would have explained this. In any event, for your information, I believe in house fellowship with believers only. Yes, there were times that Paul went out to evangelize by speaking publicly, but this was not fellowship.

Again, evangelizing is not the same as fellowship amongst believers only.

I can say the same for your belief, but making such statements without any biblical proof does not mean anything. I did provide two CF threads that has plenty of Scripture.

So you believe in Universalism or Calvin's Unconditional Election?
I was criticizing the idea that unbelievers can hang out in fellowship with believers in a church building singing praise to God with them until they are ready to actually follow the Lord. Are there no unbelievers that come to the faith within your church? That was my point, and it really is not about the altar call. It is about having fellowship with those who really do not believe yet.

No. Paul is not negating our free will choice to accept the Lord under God's drawing.
Ephesians 2:8-9 is talking about "Initial Salvation" or "Ultimate Salvation" and it is condemning "Works Alone Salvationism" (Without God's grace).
Also, receiving a gift is not a work as your are implying, either.
Gifts can be received or they can be refused and it is not a work in view of the context of what Paul is saying here. While I believe the Bible teaches that God draws us, it also makes it clear that choosing God is our responsibility in the life that we live. Otherwise, why have a judgment? For we are told to choose this day in whom we will serve (Joshua 24:15).
Jesus desired to gather Jerusalem like a hen gathers it's baby chicks underneath it's wings, but they would not allow it. Meaning, the Lord is not forcing anything upon anyone.
For God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Besides, I highly doubt others think that receiving gifts is a work. Do people think the receiving of gifts at Christmas time is a chore? Do kids get upset because it is too much work to come downstairs and open a gift?

That statement does not compute in light of tons of verses in the Bible.

Free will is a choice that leads you down a path that determines which road you want to take.

Free Will in the Bible:

#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

#10. Genesis 4:7 KJV -
"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

#11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

#12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.

First, Paul condemns the idea that we are to say we are followers after any other believer in 1 Corinthians 3. For the Corinthians were wrongfully saying they were of Paul, and Apollos. Yet, Paul said previously, was Paul crucified for you? Second, I have no idea what you mean by Sanctification. Is that holy living? Or do you think it means something else? If Sanctification does mean holy living, how would you define holy living? My guess is that it is not in view of the holy living we see in the Bible, because you are promoting a glass with an alcoholic beverage (beer) in it with Luther saying to "sin boldly" on it (This means: That one is telling a person to sin more intensely; Whether it has another secret meaning that you imply it means does not matter. Most will take this phrase to mean what it says plainly.).

Actually, I get it. Taking things out of context is what most evangelicals reformed protestants do. Count this as a victory if you need to, but know that we get how your straw man works. If you can not defend your position; attack the individual.

Now everyone knows.

Have a blessed Easter; or are you one of those who call it a pagan festival too??

LOL

MarkRohfrietsch · Apr 21, 2019

MarkRohfrietsch said:
Actually, I get it. Taking things out of context is what most evangelicals reformed protestants do. Count this as a victory if you need to, but know that we get how your straw man works. If you can not defend your position; attack the individual.

Now everyone knows.

Have a blessed Easter; or are you one of those who call it a pagan festival too??

LOL

BTW, read the Book of Concord in concert with Scripture. You may learn something if you mind, heart and soul are open.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 21, 2019

MarkRohfrietsch said:
Actually, I get it. Taking things out of context is what most evangelicals reformed protestants do. Count this as a victory if you need to, but know that we get how your straw man works. If you can not defend your position; attack the individual.

Now everyone knows.

Have a blessed Easter; or are you one of those who call it a pagan festival too??

LOL

Well, I am not attacking you personally, dear sir. The promotional image (in each of your posts) of the glasses of beer with the words "sin boldly" is something that is a part of your religion or in your support of Luther (who is the man named after the church you follow). These images are obviously a part of your faith in Lutheranism. At least, that is how I take it. I was hoping you would be able to defend my basic critique with Scripture of your own. So the ball is in your court. For you say I am taking things out of context, but you are not showing exactly how I am taking things out of context by showing me the verses in the Bible.

thecolorsblend · Apr 21, 2019

Jason0047 said:
I am not against fellowship. I said that the gathering of fellowship that happens in churches is not the biblical form of fellowship. I also provided links to two other CF thread links that would have explained this. In any event, for your information, I believe in house fellowship with believers only.

Ah, "house churches". This silly fad is one reason why I find "sola scriptura" to be a deplorably unworkable model of interpretation.

The first century Church met mostly in members' houses, it's true. One big reason for that is because the option for doing anything else didn't really exist. Try though I might, I'm unable to recall a scripture advising the faithful to meet only in private homes rather than anyplace else.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 21, 2019

thecolorsblend said:
Ah, "house churches". This silly fad is one reason why I find "sola scriptura" to be a deplorably unworkable model of interpretation.

The first century Church met mostly in members' houses, it's true. One big reason for that is because the option for doing anything else didn't really exist. Try though I might, I'm unable to recall a scripture advising the faithful to meet only in private homes rather than anyplace else.

"The book of Acts regularly describes Christian assemblies taking place in peoples' homes (Acts of the Apostles 2:42; Acts of the Apostles 5:42; Acts of the Apostles 20:20). Church meetings are recorded in the homes of John's mother (Acts of the Apostles 12:12), Lydia (Acts of the Apostles 16:40), Aquilla and Priscilla (Romans 16:3-5; 1 Corinthians 16:19), Gaius (Romans 16:23), Nympha (Colossians 4:15), and Philemon (Philemon 1:2)." ~ Mark M. Mattison.

"All true believers long for genuine relationships with other believers, because God’s love has been shed abroad in their hearts. Such relationships are part and parcel of house churches. It is what the Bible refers to as fellowship, genuine sharing of one’s life with other brothers and sisters. House churches create an environment where believers can do what believers are supposed to do, which is found in the many New Testament “one another” passages. In the house church setting, believers can exhort, encourage, edify, comfort, teach, serve and pray for one another. They can provoke each other to love and good works, confess their sins to each other, bear one another’s burdens, and admonish one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. They can weep with those who weep and rejoice with those who rejoice. Such things don’t occur very often during the Sunday morning meetings of institutional churches where believers sit and watch. As one house church member told me, “When someone is sick within our body, I don’t take a meal to a stranger’s house because I signed up for the ‘meal ministry.’ I naturally take a meal to someone I know and love.” ~ David Servant.

Source Quotes:
The Case for House Church
"House Churches", an article on a biblical alternative to institutional churches - by David Servant
(Note: While I may agree with the quotes in these articles by these authors, this does not mean I agree with everything they believe).

Cis.jd · Apr 22, 2019

To the OP. Your questions is the same questions i had when I was a Baptist moving into Catholicism.

When I was leaving the Baptist church, my first choice of conversion was the EO but one of the main reason why I chose the RCC is because most of their EO churches seemed to be geared to a specific race/culture. Which isn't wrong but the RCC was just more diverse and it also was opened to charismatic style of evangelism.

Both have a very good form of theology IMO.
IMO, do what you feel is right and what will make you happy. Don't worry about what other people will think. You have not left the necessary code of faith which is the Apostles creed so it's not like you are jumping to Islam.

MarkRohfrietsch · Apr 22, 2019

Jason0047 said:
Well, I am not attacking you personally, dear sir. The promotional image (in each of your posts) of the glasses of beer with the words "sin boldly" is something that is a part of your religion or in your support of Luther (who is the man named after the church you follow). These images are obviously a part of your faith in Lutheranism. At least, that is how I take it. I was hoping you would be able to defend my basic critique with Scripture of your own. So the ball is in your court. For you say I am taking things out of context, but you are not showing exactly how I am taking things out of context by showing me the verses in the Bible.

Unless you subscribe to the heterodox theology of once saved, always saved (which you may because that also often accompanies "decision theology", you should know that we are still in the flesh, and due to the stain of original sin, despite ourselves we continue to sin frequently in thought, word and deed every day. (Scripture is clear about this); therefore we must not try to pretend that we do not sin (like criminals lying on the witness stand) but rather be bold and admit our sins. Luther wrote further that while we sin boldly, we must therefore repent even more boldly.

Unless one accepts that they are a sinner, they can not repent.

MarkRohfrietsch · Apr 22, 2019

thecolorsblend said:
Ah, "house churches". This silly fad is one reason why I find "sola scriptura" to be a deplorably unworkable model of interpretation.

The first century Church met mostly in members' houses, it's true. One big reason for that is because the option for doing anything else didn't really exist. Try though I might, I'm unable to recall a scripture advising the faithful to meet only in private homes rather than anyplace else.

You are correct, but in areas where there was a great following, they met in the Synagogues as well. The first Churches were founded among the Jews, and there were mass conversions following Pentecost. Archaeologists have unearthed Churches dating back to the first and second century. House Churches and secret worship spaces continued to be used through the Roman persecution of Christians for the first few hundred years; and to this day where Christians are persecuted or missions are being started with a few core members.

The house Churches and even many of the independent non-denominational Churches of today, speak more of disunity and Christian anarchy, and are often founded based on the personal interpretation of one person applying a different set of interpretive standards compared to the one down the road.

With Churches that hold and practice "traditional theology", we realize that the Church, like our Trinitarian God and God's Word are eternal. Despite whether we base our (similar in many ways) theologies on Tradition, Scripture, or both, our Churches face the same struggles as the early Churches. While we confessional Lutherans look to Scripture to provide contest to Scripture; we likewise look to the historic Church to provide context to the Church of today. Thus there remains continuity and for the most part theological unity in many things; despite the differences that remain and preclude full fellowship.

While many cite "Sola Scriptura" as a dividing factory when it comes to us Lutherans as well protestants of all sorts,; many forget that there are four other Solas in Lutheranism that keep the Church grounded in the traditional faith of our fathers, and Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit play no small part in maintaining continuity within the Church.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 22, 2019

MarkRohfrietsch said:
Unless you subscribe to the heterodox theology of once saved, always saved (which you may because that also often accompanies "decision theology", you should know that we are still in the flesh, and due to the stain of original sin, despite ourselves we continue to sin frequently in thought, word and deed every day. (Scripture is clear about this); therefore we must not try to pretend that we do not sin (like criminals lying on the witness stand) but rather be bold and admit our sins. Luther wrote further that while we sin boldly, we must therefore repent even more boldly.

Unless one accepts that they are a sinner, they can not repent.

This is the problem I have with Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS), and or with a Non-OSAS Sin and Still Be Saved Type Belief (Free Will Baptists, Lutherans) which is a part of Sola Fide in Protestantism. Nowhere is this taught in the Bible. In fact, the Bible tells you not to sin and that you can overcome grievous sin in this life. The Bible teaches that abiding in certain unrepentant sins can have dire consequences for a person's soul in the afterlife. For example: You believe that Lutheranism is correct in it's teaching that you can abide in the unrepentant sin of lying and still be saved. But Revelation 21:8 says that ALL liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire. The apostles John does not mention another group of liars (lying believers) who are an exception to this rule.

Your version of the "grace of God" is teaching us that we can sin and still be saved;
Yet, the Bible teaches this about the "grace of God":

11 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;" (Titus 2:11-12).

Not sure if you caught what this passage says, but it says that the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness, and worldly lusts. It also says that the grace of God teaches us to live righteously, and godly in this present world.

By what you said you have given the impression that God's grace teaches the opposite of that in the fact that you do not have to deny ungodliness, and worldly lusts, and that you don't have to live righteously and godly in this present world; For you said that no believer will be able to stop committing certain sins like lying.

Jesus said if a person were to look upon a woman in lust, their whole body can be cast into hell fire (See Matthew 5:28-30). Jesus said if a person does not forgive, they will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15). Jesus says we can be condemned by our words (Matthew 12:37). Jesus said to the rich young ruler that if he will enter into life, keep the commandments such as: "Do not murder, do not covet, do not bear false witness (lie), etc. (Matthew 19:17-19). Jesus agreed with the lawyer on the truth that in order to inherit eternal life, one needs to love God, and love their neighbor. Jesus said to the lawyer to "Do this, and you will live" (See Luke 10:25-28). Jesus said if we do not help the poor (in this life), we can be cast into everlasting fire (See Matthew 25:31-46).

What about after the cross? John says if a person hates their brother, they are like a murderer and no eternal life abides in them (See: 1 John 3:15). James says:

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." (James 1:12).

In other words, James says that if we endure temptation (i.e. we do not sin) when we are tried, we shall receive the crown of life (Which is promised to those that love Him). Love who? Jesus. For Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). For Paul says if any man love not the lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed (1 Corinthians 16:22). Also, Paul says,

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:13).

Paul here is saying that if you live after the flesh (i.e. sin), you are going to die (Note: For the wages of sin is death - Romans 6:23), but if you mortify (put to death) the deeds of the body (sin) through the Holy Spirit, you shall live. This is talking about spiritual life and not physical life because all people die at different ages regardless of the amount of sin that they commit.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 22, 2019

MarkRohfrietsch said:
You are correct, but in areas where there was a great following, they met in the Synagogues as well. The first Churches were founded among the Jews, and there were mass conversions following Pentecost. Archaeologists have unearthed Churches dating back to the first and second century. House Churches and secret worship spaces continued to be used through the Roman persecution of Christians for the first few hundred years; and to this day where Christians are persecuted or missions are being started with a few core members.

The house Churches and even many of the independent non-denominational Churches of today, speak more of disunity and Christian anarchy, and are often founded based on the personal interpretation of one person applying a different set of interpretive standards compared to the one down the road.

With Churches that hold and practice "traditional theology", we realize that the Church, like our Trinitarian God and God's Word are eternal. Despite whether we base our (similar in many ways) theologies on Tradition, Scripture, or both, our Churches face the same struggles as the early Churches. While we confessional Lutherans look to Scripture to provide contest to Scripture; we likewise look to the historic Church to provide context to the Church of today. Thus there remains continuity and for the most part theological unity in many things; despite the differences that remain and preclude full fellowship.

While many cite "Sola Scriptura" as a dividing factory when it comes to us Lutherans as well protestants of all sorts,; many forget that there are four other Solas in Lutheranism that keep the Church grounded in the traditional faith of our fathers, and Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit play no small part in maintaining continuity within the Church.

The Jewish temple was something that was already in existence. Salvation is to the Jew first, and then to the Gentile. Nowhere does Scripture teach or command that Gentile believers built big buildings to gather in. We have to understand that the Old ways (of the Old Covenant) were being slowly phased out for the Jew. In Acts, God was still teaching Peter about the inclusion of the Gentiles in his program with sending him a vision about eating unclean animals (So as to visit Cornelius). They also addressed at the Jerusalem council (Acts 15) that the Gentiles did not have to be circumcised or keep the Old Covenant Law of Moses. When we look at the whole of the New Testament, we understand that all believers (Whether Jew or Gentiles) are to follow the commands given to them by Jesus and His followers instead (Which includes the moral law).

It's also a fact that people do not get to have that family relationship or connection like they do in a house church vs. a traditional big building church. I know. I have attended many big building churches before and they are all very cold and unfriendly. The environment sets it up to be that way (i.e. to be very formal) instead of informal like with a few people in a home.

MarkRohfrietsch · Apr 23, 2019

Jason0047 said:
The Jewish temple was something that was already in existence. Salvation is to the Jew first, and then to the Gentile. Nowhere does Scripture teach or command that Gentile believers built big buildings to gather in. We have to understand that the Old ways (of the Old Covenant) were being slowly phased out for the Jew. In Acts, God was still teaching Peter about the inclusion of the Gentiles in his program with sending him a vision about eating unclean animals (So as to visit Cornelius). They also addressed at the Jerusalem council (Acts 15) that the Gentiles did not have to be circumcised or keep the Old Covenant Law of Moses. When we look at the whole of the New Testament, we understand that all believers (Whether Jew or Gentiles) are to follow the commands given to them by Jesus and His followers instead (Which includes the moral law).

It's also a fact that people do not get to have that family relationship or connection like they do in a house church vs. a traditional big building church. I know. I have attended many big building churches before and they are all very cold and unfriendly. The environment sets it up to be that way (i.e. to be very formal) instead of informal like with a few people in a home.

So you disregard the Old Testament regarding how God likes to be worshiped? Our Lord Jesus spent time in the temple, not just whupping the money changers, but teaching, worshiping, and talking to the teachers and Priests (that is NT BTW)
As the numbers of Christians grew, and following the legalization of the Church by Constantine, so too did the places of worship to accommodate them.

My experience has been the opposite; I worked for many years with many Churches as a Funeral Director, and the smaller, not so mainline churches were the most cliquey while the larger more traditional Churches were much more welcoming; their membership was also more diverse both racially and culturally. They had a more eclectic view of God's kingdom, whereas, the tiny Churches or assemblies were always more narcissistic, focusing on their little group, and looking down upon all other Christians.

I'm sorry, but based on our interactions here; I believe that were I to interact with members of your group, I may indeed come away with the same impression.

FireDragon76 · Apr 23, 2019

Jason0047 said:
This is the problem I have with Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS), and or with a Non-OSAS Sin and Still Be Saved Type Belief (Free Will Baptists, Lutherans) which is a part of Sola Fide in Protestantism. Nowhere is this taught in the Bible. In fact, the Bible tells you not to sin and that you can overcome grievous sin in this life. The Bible teaches that abiding in certain unrepentant sins can have dire consequences for a person's soul in the afterlife. For example: You believe that Lutheranism is correct in it's teaching that you can abide in the unrepentant sin of lying and still be saved. But Revelation 21:8 says that ALL liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire. The apostles John does not mention another group of liars (lying believers) who are an exception to this rule.

Your version of the "grace of God" is teaching us that we can sin and still be saved;
Yet, the Bible teaches this about the "grace of God":

11 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;" (Titus 2:11-12).

Not sure if you caught what this passage says, but it says that the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness, and worldly lusts. It also says that the grace of God teaches us to live righteously, and godly in this present world.

By what you said you have given the impression that God's grace teaches the opposite of that in the fact that you do not have to deny ungodliness, and worldly lusts, and that you don't have to live righteously and godly in this present world; For you said that no believer will be able to stop committing certain sins like lying.

Jesus said if a person were to look upon a woman in lust, their whole body can be cast into hell fire (See Matthew 5:28-30). Jesus said if a person does not forgive, they will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15). Jesus says we can be condemned by our words (Matthew 12:37). Jesus said to the rich young ruler that if he will enter into life, keep the commandments such as: "Do not murder, do not covet, do not bear false witness (lie), etc. (Matthew 19:17-19). Jesus agreed with the lawyer on the truth that in order to inherit eternal life, one needs to love God, and love their neighbor. Jesus said to the lawyer to "Do this, and you will live" (See Luke 10:25-28). Jesus said if we do not help the poor (in this life), we can be cast into everlasting fire (See Matthew 25:31-46).

What about after the cross? John says if a person hates their brother, they are like a murderer and no eternal life abides in them (See: 1 John 3:15). James says:

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." (James 1:12).

In other words, James says that if we endure temptation (i.e. we do not sin) when we are tried, we shall receive the crown of life (Which is promised to those that love Him). Love who? Jesus. For Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). For Paul says if any man love not the lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed (1 Corinthians 16:22). Also, Paul says,

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:13).

Paul here is saying that if you live after the flesh (i.e. sin), you are going to die (Note: For the wages of sin is death - Romans 6:23), but if you mortify (put to death) the deeds of the body (sin) through the Holy Spirit, you shall live. This is talking about spiritual life and not physical life because all people die at different ages regardless of the amount of sin that they commit.

You simply do not understand Lutheranism, I am afraid. You're going to have to give up on your rationalism and tendency to over-systematize something that is far more dynamic, complex, and nuanced, to even understand our approach. You make it sound like living the Christian life is far easier than it really is, and that in itself is sinful.

FireDragon76 · Apr 23, 2019

If we actually endure temptations for the wrong motivations, such as pride, we still sin. As Paul says rightly in 1st Corinthians 13:

If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

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