Is it impossible to lose your salvation?

mark kennedy

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Jesus said the goats go into eternal punishment because.......they did not believe in Christ? IS that why? Hummmm
If they loved Christ they would have loved his church, the didn't. One of the things that gets lost in the Romans Road to salvation crowd it's that many are called, few are chosen. So much emphasis put on your choice in salvation, your performance, your works of righteousness, God doesn't even get honorable mention. You can choose God all day long but it's meaningless until he chooses you.
 
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mark kennedy

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Amen! After a casual reading of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-46), these verses "on the surface" seem to suggest that salvation is the result of works, yet Scripture proves itself right and non-contradictory when compared with the totality of Scripture. This passage has to be taken alongside the whole of Scripture. Jesus was not advocating salvation by works, which would be contrary to Romans 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5 etc.. One's works are an effect of (and therefore indication of) one's salvation status, rather than being a cause of one's salvation. The good deeds mentioned in Matthew 25:35-36 are the fruit that will be manifest in the lives of the redeemed. Those who are placed at Christ's right hand are not there based on the merits of their good deeds, but because their faith has been accounted to them for righteousness (Romans 4:2-6; Philippians 3:9). When works are mentioned in connection with salvation, the works are always the result of, not the condition of, receiving salvation.

*Notice also how love for other Christians is an indication of one's salvation status: 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

He who practices righteousness and loves his brother does so BECAUSE he is "of God" not to become of God. 1 John 3:14 - We know that we have (past tense) passed from death to life, because we love our brothers (present tense). Loving our brothers is the result of, not the condition of passing from death to life. It's important not to confuse descriptor passages of scriptures with prescriptive passages of scriptures.

Amen! The talents represent monetary value and are distributed according to ability (verse 15). The requirement is to invest in Christ. The first two servants deposited their money with the bankers (Matthew 25:27) but the third servant buried his money in the ground (verse 25). The third servant had been given abilities and the opportunity to believe and bear fruit in accordance, but had chosen to reject it.

The fact that the latter man in this parable is called wicked and slothful and an unprofitable servant (Matthew 25:30) who is cast out into outer darkness, certainly indicates that he was not a true disciple of the master. The idea of this illustrative parable is that all true believers will produce fruit in varying degress. All believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful (Matthew 13:23). Those who produce no results are not truly converted.

This man's characterization of the master maligns him as reaping and gathering what he had no right to claim as his own. This lazy, wicked so-called servant does not represent a genuine believer, for it is obvious that this man had no true knowledge of the master. Two of these servants were children of God, but not the third. Children of God are not cast out into outer darkness. The fact that this man is called a servant does not necessarily mean that he was saved. *The Jews were called the Lord’s servants, but they were not all saved. Leviticus 25:55 - For the children of Israel are servants to Me; they are My servants whom I brought out of the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.
Isaiah 43:10 - You are My witnesses, says the Lord, "And My servant whom I have chosen..
One of the things I've noticed, generally through word studies, is that words like 'atonement' and 'imputation' were originally book keepers terms. When we see the passage from Genesis 15:6 repeated in Romans 4 again and again it draws attention to the term translated 'credited'. The exposition can be complicated but the capitol of the kingdom of heaven isn't silver and gold but the righteousness of God in Christ. So Abraham believed God and it was credited to him for righteousness, by faith we follow in the footsteps in the Patriarch of both Israel and in many ways, our own faith as Gentiles. That makes righteousness available but to bury that in the ground and do nothing with it flies in the face of basic common sense to say nothing of God's expressed sovereign will. Here is how the righteousness that is by grace through faith was manifest in the life of one sinner:

All the people saw this and began to mutter, “He has gone to be the guest of a sinner.”

But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”

Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.” (Luke 19:7-10)​

Of all the people in that town Jesus choose Zacchaeus to be the one he would stay with. That would be a high honor even for the most pious among them but Jesus choose a despised tax collector, who was enjoying the greatest honor of his life. Most likely no one else even wanted to talk to this man I'm sure they all considered a traitor. Everyone, 'all the people' are saying this man is 'the guest of a sinner', he is embarrassing the Lord. But it doesn't end there, the man repents and agrees to make it right, repaying what is owed by 4x which is the legal remedy in the Law of Moses. Jesus says salvation has come to this house. I see no one arguing that repentance doesn't include repairing what we previously destroyed as sinners, grace gives us the spiritual capitol to make it right. But do not forget, grace came first, repentance wasn't telling Zacchaeus to clean up his act, make things right and I'll come see you then.

When it comes to the manifestation of true righteousness, grace works. If you just make it about your performance there is no means to the end of righteousness and in the end your works will be as filthy rags. Righteousness is always, and has always been by grace through faith, the sinner is credited with righteousness that cannot be manifest by any other means. What gets lost is these debates is the gospel, we are saved for good works not by them.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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I just was curious about those posts online about people who have died that were Christian and experienced going to Hell. Do people really think that it’s all made up and you shouldn’t listen to those testimonies? Do people really think it’s impossible to lose your salvation? Cause there are many testimonies of people who have seen the names of some believers removed from the book of life due to backsliding and unrepentant sin.

Tell me what you think about all this, is it something that you just ignore and hope they’re wrong? Please explain what you do to convince yourself of the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine.

According to the scriptures I don’t believe anyone will be removed from the book of life. The book of life was written before creation which means it could only be written according to God’s foreknowledge. So it wouldn’t make any sense to add someone’s name to the book of life before creation then remove their name also before creation. I don’t see any verses that actually say that someone’s name can or will be removed from the book of life. I only see verses that people use to support the assumption that it is possible but nothing definitive. Personally I believe the names were written on the contingency of them abiding and enduring to the end.
 
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I just was curious about those posts online about people who have died that were Christian and experienced going to Hell. Do people really think that it’s all made up and you shouldn’t listen to those testimonies? Do people really think it’s impossible to lose your salvation? Cause there are many testimonies of people who have seen the names of some believers removed from the book of life due to backsliding and unrepentant sin.

Tell me what you think about all this, is it something that you just ignore and hope they’re wrong? Please explain what you do to convince yourself of the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine.

There’s two way a person can look at eternal security. One way of looking at eternal security is by seeing those who are written in the book of life and another way is to see those who are on the path to being written in the book of life but stray off the path and never repent. The book of life was written according to God’s foreknowledge before creation. It will not be edited. In that aspect those who are written in the book of life are eternally saved. God has foreseen that they will not stray from the path and they will endure to the end. But what has God foreseen? He has already seen the choices we have made, are currently making, and will make in the future. Because we have free will we ultimately decide what God had already foreseen by the choices we make. We are in control of our destiny and fate. We have at any given moment the ability to become children of God or sons of disobedience. In this aspect a person who is on the path to salvation can stray from that path and lose the salvation he would’ve received had he stayed on the path. Hence they were saved but lost their salvation.
 
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I just was curious about those posts online about people who have died that were Christian and experienced going to Hell. Do people really think that it’s all made up and you shouldn’t listen to those testimonies? Do people really think it’s impossible to lose your salvation? Cause there are many testimonies of people who have seen the names of some believers removed from the book of life due to backsliding and unrepentant sin.

Tell me what you think about all this, is it something that you just ignore and hope they’re wrong? Please explain what you do to convince yourself of the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine.

Ephesians 2 Paul indicates that he is writing to children of God and yet in Ephesians 5 he warns these same children of God of the danger of living a sinful life and receiving the wrath of God on the sons of disobedience which is they will have no inheritance in the kingdom of God.

Romans 11 Paul explains that branches that are grafted into the tree can be cut off and grafted in again if they repent.

John 15 Jesus warns His 11 faithful apostles of the danger and the consequences the branches who are IN CHRIST (verse 2) will face we they do not bear fruit and abide in Him. Those consequences being that they will be cut off or removed from the vine (Christ) thrown away to wither, and thrown into the fire to burn.
 
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mark kennedy

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Jesus said Peter would fall away from the faith and he did. He even denied knowing Jesus at all. That is falling away from t he faith. Jesus said if you deny him before men, he will deny you before the Father. Jesus did not have any problem believing men fall away from the faith and are lost. IN OSAS you can fall away from the faith and I guess it doesn't mean anything. Jesus did not promise that if you deny him before men it just means less rewards. "HE who endures to the end, and only he who endures to the end, will be saved." He did not promise you will endure nor that he is keeping salvation safe whether you endure or not.

Peter never fell away from the faith, as soon as the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crowed he wept bitterly. He lost the courage of his convictions, stumbled, and immediately struggled to his feet. Peter would continue to struggle, even after his testing during the trial of Christ. Remember the passage where Jesus is asking Peter, 'Peter do you love me'? Peter kept answering, 'Lord you know I love you'. What you don't get from that passage is they are using two different words, Jesus is saying agape, Peter is saying philieo, divine love vs. brotherly love. Jesus was about to tell him the death he would die, I can well understand his hesitation, it reminds me of the complaints of the prophets.

Where does the Bible say salvation is a one time thing? How come Jesus spoke of it in the future and said endurance is necessary?

This is the first time the Gentiles would hear the gospel as a group:

All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. (Acts 10:43-44)
That is a singular, one time event. It is the pattern for the gospel throughout the New Testament with regards to hearing the message, believing, and being marked with the Holy Spirit of promise:

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. (Eph. 1:13-14)
Ephesus worked, they founded the seven other churches of Asia Minor that became the largest evangelistic effort of the first century. Paul tells them early and often, it is by the hearing of faith and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that is 'a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance'. Nothing about your performance being a condition, but based on that singular event, the manifestation of the Holy Spirit through the gifts and callings of the Holy Spirit they became fruitful ministers. You have performance out there saving you or keeping you saved and you are missing the first and most essential steps in the process of practical righteousness, the salvation that is by grace through faith.

Let us look at that Hebrews verse and see how much of it applies to the christians at your church.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Heb. 6:4-6)

Has your church members tasted of the heavenly gift and do they know what that means? It is not mere salvation as for those who have so tasted, salvation is long behind them as they moved into maturity. Are they partakers of the Holy Ghost? Not in believing no matter what but real powers of the Holy Spirit like healing the sick, casting out demons, that sort of real infilling. You see, those who fall in the above category don't merely believe, but are wielding the powers of the age to come. This is not the Christian one meets in the west for the most part. So I ask you, are believers in your church wielding powers of the age to come? IF not, none of this applies. There are very often conditions in the Bible.

A couple of elements here, you are enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift, being partakers of the Holy Spirit. They had experienced the gospel and the power of the Holy Spirit, what the particulars are here isn't mentioned, not that it's important really. What matters is that they have. Now they are in danger of drifting back into the legalistic snare of Judaism, warned against in Galatians as well. They had worked, they had experienced the manifestation of the Holy Spirit, they even suffered persecution. Now they are being tempted to go back and take on what Peter called a yoke neither we nor our fathers could bear. It's not like they had buried their talent, these were not wicked and lazy servants but fruitful ministers that are being tempted to embrace a works righteousness. If you go back to that after being saved by grace it's apostasy, which literally means to fall away, the idea being to fall away from the faith. You can't be saved by grace and perfected by works, it just doesn't work that way. Paul worked harder then all the other Apostles, at least according to him, by grace:

If one were to ask the Apostle Paul how it is that he worked so hard and suffered so much and bringing so many the Gospel, he would, and did, tell us that it is by grace.

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—, yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. (I Cor. 15:10)
I have yet to make an argument that repentance is not a part of salvation or that works do not follow, I've said nothing of the sort. The gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12) that build up the church through the ministry of it's members literally means grace (charisma). All this performance based salvation, where is the grace that saves, the justifies, that sanctifies and equips the saints for service. Your clearly and obviously missing some steps and key ingredients here.

Have a nice day :)
Mark
 
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My main concern when I read salvation threads is the focus on works, wondering if faith ever happened at all. Just saying.

John 15:2 says branches who are “In Christ” will be cut off if they do not bear fruit.
 
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Peter never fell away from the faith, as soon as the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crowed he wept bitterly. He lost the courage of his convictions, stumbled, and immediately struggled to his feet. Peter would continue to struggle, even after his testing during the trial of Christ. Remember the passage where Jesus is asking Peter, 'Peter do you love me'? Peter kept answering, 'Lord you know I love you'. What you don't get from that passage is they are using two different words, Jesus is saying agape, Peter is saying philieo, divine love vs. brotherly love. Jesus was about to tell him the death he would die, I can well understand his hesitation, it reminds me of the complaints of the prophets.



This is the first time the Gentiles would hear the gospel as a group:

All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. (Acts 10:43-44)
That is a singular, one time event. It is the pattern for the gospel throughout the New Testament with regards to hearing the message, believing, and being marked with the Holy Spirit of promise:

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. (Eph. 1:13-14)
Ephesus worked, they founded the seven other churches of Asia Minor that became the largest evangelistic effort of the first century. Paul tells them early and often, it is by the hearing of faith and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that is 'a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance'. Nothing about your performance being a condition, but based on that singular event, the manifestation of the Holy Spirit through the gifts and callings of the Holy Spirit they became fruitful ministers. You have performance out there saving you or keeping you saved and you are missing the first and most essential steps in the process of practical righteousness, the salvation that is by grace through faith.



A couple of elements here, you are enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift, being partakers of the Holy Spirit. They had experienced the gospel and the power of the Holy Spirit, what the particulars are here isn't mentioned, not that it's important really. What matters is that they have. Now they are in danger of drifting back into the legalistic snare of Judaism, warned against in Galatians as well. They had worked, they had experienced the manifestation of the Holy Spirit, they even suffered persecution. Now they are being tempted to go back and take on what Peter called a yoke neither we nor our fathers could bear. It's not like they had buried their talent, these were not wicked and lazy servants but fruitful ministers that are being tempted to embrace a works righteousness. If you go back to that after being saved by grace it's apostasy, which literally means to fall away, the idea being to fall away from the faith. You can't be saved by grace and perfected by works, it just doesn't work that way. Paul worked harder then all the other Apostles, at least according to him, by grace:

If one were to ask the Apostle Paul how it is that he worked so hard and suffered so much and bringing so many the Gospel, he would, and did, tell us that it is by grace.

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—, yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. (I Cor. 15:10)
I have yet to make an argument that repentance is not a part of salvation or that works do not follow, I've said nothing of the sort. The gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12) that build up the church through the ministry of it's members literally means grace (charisma). All this performance based salvation, where is the grace that saves, the justifies, that sanctifies and equips the saints for service. Your clearly and obviously missing some steps and key ingredients here.

Have a nice day :)
Mark

Bless you brother Mark and happy Easter. What are your thoughts on John 15:1-10?
 
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BNR32FAN

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Peter never fell away from the faith, as soon as the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crowed he wept bitterly. He lost the courage of his convictions, stumbled, and immediately struggled to his feet. Peter would continue to struggle, even after his testing during the trial of Christ. Remember the passage where Jesus is asking Peter, 'Peter do you love me'? Peter kept answering, 'Lord you know I love you'. What you don't get from that passage is they are using two different words, Jesus is saying agape, Peter is saying philieo, divine love vs. brotherly love. Jesus was about to tell him the death he would die, I can well understand his hesitation, it reminds me of the complaints of the prophets.



This is the first time the Gentiles would hear the gospel as a group:

All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. (Acts 10:43-44)
That is a singular, one time event. It is the pattern for the gospel throughout the New Testament with regards to hearing the message, believing, and being marked with the Holy Spirit of promise:

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. (Eph. 1:13-14)
Ephesus worked, they founded the seven other churches of Asia Minor that became the largest evangelistic effort of the first century. Paul tells them early and often, it is by the hearing of faith and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that is 'a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance'. Nothing about your performance being a condition, but based on that singular event, the manifestation of the Holy Spirit through the gifts and callings of the Holy Spirit they became fruitful ministers. You have performance out there saving you or keeping you saved and you are missing the first and most essential steps in the process of practical righteousness, the salvation that is by grace through faith.



A couple of elements here, you are enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift, being partakers of the Holy Spirit. They had experienced the gospel and the power of the Holy Spirit, what the particulars are here isn't mentioned, not that it's important really. What matters is that they have. Now they are in danger of drifting back into the legalistic snare of Judaism, warned against in Galatians as well. They had worked, they had experienced the manifestation of the Holy Spirit, they even suffered persecution. Now they are being tempted to go back and take on what Peter called a yoke neither we nor our fathers could bear. It's not like they had buried their talent, these were not wicked and lazy servants but fruitful ministers that are being tempted to embrace a works righteousness. If you go back to that after being saved by grace it's apostasy, which literally means to fall away, the idea being to fall away from the faith. You can't be saved by grace and perfected by works, it just doesn't work that way. Paul worked harder then all the other Apostles, at least according to him, by grace:

If one were to ask the Apostle Paul how it is that he worked so hard and suffered so much and bringing so many the Gospel, he would, and did, tell us that it is by grace.

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—, yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. (I Cor. 15:10)
I have yet to make an argument that repentance is not a part of salvation or that works do not follow, I've said nothing of the sort. The gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12) that build up the church through the ministry of it's members literally means grace (charisma). All this performance based salvation, where is the grace that saves, the justifies, that sanctifies and equips the saints for service. Your clearly and obviously missing some steps and key ingredients here.

Have a nice day :)
Mark

I agree that Peter never fell away from the faith he simply stumbled in sin and quickly repented. I believe we all face situations like this from time to time. Not specifically denying Christ but perhaps by having worries, doubts or fear of evangelizing to others.
 
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fhansen

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Like I said it’s impossible for the self righteous to lay hold upon Christ and forsake their sin of resting in their own works as the grounds for justification
It's not self-righteousness, or certainly doesn't have to be. It's humbly obeying God- knowing that we're obligated to be righteous, with God-righteousness rather than self-righteousness, a righteousness that only He can impart to us. We depend on Him. We're obligated to depend on Him. But we don't depend on Him to suddenly ignore injustice within us but rather we depend on Him to actually do the justifying that we cannot do ourselves. God didn't create us to be sinners after all-everything He created was good. The obligation to be who He created us to be remains-we just need to see our need for Him first of all in order to do it. The Law, even though it's holy, spiritual, and good, cannot justify; only God can.

"...not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith."
Phil 3

To the extent that we enter communion with Him, we abiding in Him and He in us, the grace of this righteousness flows; He 'places His law in our minds and writes it on our hearts'. Jesus came to reveal the true "face" of the Father, so that humanity will know Him and turn back to Him, after having conceived a "distorted image" of Him at the Fall as one teaching I'm familiar with tells us. As we come to know the true God we're reconciled with Him. As we're reconciled with Him we enter communion with Him, as is the right and just order of things for man. We were created for union with God. And that union can-must-begin now, then fully consummated in the next life. 1 Cor 13:12
 
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mark kennedy

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Bless you brother Mark and happy Easter. What are your thoughts on John 15:1-10?
A Happy Easter to you and yours, may the promise of spring bring forth the blessings of God abundantly. John gives us details that don't appear in the other Gospels, this one is of particular importance. In short, to abide in Christ (the true vine), is to love other believers. That's the whole objective of faith, to be joined to the body of Christ and manifest the grace of God by building up his church. Paul follows this pattern, in 1 Cor. 12 he describes at length the gifts of the Holy Spirit building up the body of Christ like a great Temple. Then comes 1 Cor. 13 that great love chapter, then in the fourteenth chapter he describes how the church should worship, decently and in order. A simple and easily discernible pattern you can see both in the passages mentioned and elsewhere.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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mark kennedy

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I agree that Peter never fell away from the faith he simply stumbled in sin and quickly repented. I believe we all face situations like this from time to time. Not specifically denying Christ but perhaps by having worries, doubts or fear of evangelizing to others.
I've always thought the passage was kind of humorous, not to dismiss the personal agony Peter was obviously going through. At one point he is ready to take on 1,000 Roman soldiers with a sword, single handedly severing the ear of a slave. Jesus heals the poor guy obviously put out there as a human shield, telling Peter you live by the sword you die by the sword. Later Peter is lurking in the court yard and has already denied Jesus twice. John is inside awaiting the trial and sends a little girl, probably about 9 would be my guess. She asks him are you one of his disciples? She is about to invite him in but he cursed and swore and says I don't know him. This big and bad Galilean who would take on a Roman Legion scared to death by a little girl. He hears the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crow and reality comes crashing in, just as the Lord had warned him.

You know when Jesus warned Peter he would be tested, the Apostles were arguing who would sit at Jesus right and left hand? God knows how to keep us humble, I could cite so many examples, Old and New Testament. Just look back over your life, you probably won't have much trouble seeing the same thing, I know I don't. Pride still goes before the fall, humility still goes before honor. It's only when we know we are finally defeated by sin, that we are really able to receive the grace that will defeat it decisively. While that might seem counter intuitive, it's never the less a pattern throughout Scripture. Always it's by grace.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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Gregory Thompson

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John 15:2 says branches who are “In Christ” will be cut off if they do not bear fruit.
so then the deominations that do not bear fruit will have the kingdom taken away from them, and it will be given to a nation bearing the fruit therof?
 
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BNR32FAN

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A Happy Easter to you and yours, may the promise of spring bring forth the blessings of God abundantly. John gives us details that don't appear in the other Gospels, this one is of particular importance. In short, to abide in Christ (the true vine), is to love other believers. That's the whole objective of faith, to be joined to the body of Christ and manifest the grace of God by building up his church. Paul follows this pattern, in 1 Cor. 12 he describes at length the gifts of the Holy Spirit building up the body of Christ like a great Temple. Then comes 1 Cor. 13 that great love chapter, then in the fourteenth chapter he describes how the church should worship, decently and in order. A simple and easily discernible pattern you can see both in the passages mentioned and elsewhere.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Yes but in John 15:2 Jesus says

“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭15:2‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Thank you very much for you blessing brother. The term “takes away” actually means to cut off or remove what is attached to something according to the definition of the Greek word used. A branch cannot be cut off or removed unless it is already attached to the vine which is Christ.
 
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mark kennedy

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Yes but in John 15:2 Jesus says

“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭15:2‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Thank you very much for you blessing brother. The term “takes away” actually means to cut off or remove what is attached to something according to the definition of the Greek word used. A branch cannot be cut off or removed unless it is already attached to the vine which is Christ.
I'm aware of that, excellent point. Bear in mind Hebrews 6:4 does warn that if you fall away from the faith it's impossible to be restored to repentance, however the writer says this immediately following:

Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation. God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, so that what you hope for may be fully realized. We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised. (Heb. 6:9-12)​

The only one who Jesus lost after telling them, you must remain in the vine, was Judas, Jesus said was already a devil previously. Sure if you can depart from the faith you would be lost forever, but that's a big if. The writer of Hebrews is saying some scathing things but still, he doesn't believe that's what is going to happen. Just reminding them of what the already know, they have to remain in the faith or they are lost forever.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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MDC

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It's not self-righteousness, or certainly doesn't have to be. It's humbly obeying God- knowing that we're obligated to be righteous, with God-righteousness rather than self-righteousness, a righteousness that only He can impart to us. We depend on Him. We're obligated to depend on Him. But we don't depend on Him to suddenly ignore injustice within us but rather we depend on Him to actually do the justifying that we cannot do ourselves. God didn't create us to be sinners after all-everything He created was good. The obligation to be who He created us to be remains-we just need to see our need for Him first of all in order to do it. The Law, even though it's holy, spiritual, and good, cannot justify; only God can.

"...not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith."
Phil 3

To the extent that we enter communion with Him, we abiding in Him and He in us, the grace of this righteousness flows; He 'places His law in our minds and writes it on our hearts'. Jesus came to reveal the true "face" of the Father, so that humanity will know Him and turn back to Him, after having conceived a "distorted image" of Him at the Fall as one teaching I'm familiar with tells us. As we come to know the true God we're reconciled with Him. As we're reconciled with Him we enter communion with Him, as is the right and just order of things for man. We were created for union with God. And that union can-must-begin now, then fully consummated in the next life. 1 Cor 13:12
If you believe your “righteous” deeds or works plays any role at all towards your justification then you are self righteous and lack knowledge of your true natural state of wickedness and sinfulness. Christ Jesus is our righteousness. If you believed the scripture you just quoted then you would believe in justification by faith alone. But we know Catholicism rejects this
 
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fhansen

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If you believe your “righteous” deeds or works plays any role at all towards your justification then you are self righteous and lack knowledge of your true natural state of wickedness and sinfulness. Christ Jesus is our righteousness. If you believed the scripture you just quoted then you would believe in justification by faith alone. But we know Catholicism rejects this
If you don't understand that under the New Covenant man is still obligated to be righteous to the greatest extent he can with whatever grace he's been given, working out his salvation, obeying God's will, obeying His commands and commandments, doing those works prepared for us in Christ Jesus as per Eph 2:10 or Matt 21:31-46, for "the least of these", obedience and works born of the love that God has wrought in him, then you won't understand the gospel or Phil 3-or the purpose of faith.

the New Covenant gives us a new way, the right way, to do it; it doesn't excuse us from doing it. That would be a perversion of the Gospel
 
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mark kennedy

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If you don't understand that under the New Covenant man is still obligated to be righteous to the greatest extent he can with whatever grace he's been given, working out his salvation, obeying God's will, obeying His commands and commandments, doing those works prepared for us in Christ Jesus as per Eph 2:10 or Matt 21:31-46, for "the least of these", obedience and works born of the love that God has wrought in him, then you won't understand the gospel or Phil 3-or the purpose of faith.

the New Covenant gives us a new way, the right way, to do it; it doesn't excuse us from doing it. That would be a perversion of the Gospel
No good Catholic would dare deny, that fulfilling the righteous requirements of the Law are fulfilled in Christ by grace through faith. Paul presses on, like all mature believers, to attain the resurrection of the dead:

and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead. (Phil. 3:9-11)​

The gifts of faith include works, but grace comes first.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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