Isaiah 40:22 -- "Globe of the Earth"

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Speedwell

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I think that he is desperate. This has become a general attack on atheists.
Become? It's been that from the start. From the OP:

"This 2D flat interpretation is only less than 200 years old and it came from atheists who chose not to know the real meaning of the verse, but would rather make up a new meaning that the early Christian church would not recognize."
 
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Subduction Zone

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Become? It's been that from the start. From the OP:

"This 2D flat interpretation is only less than 200 years old and it came from atheists who chose not to know the real meaning of the verse, but would rather make up a new meaning that the early Christian church would not recognize."

I should have read that. Where did he get that crazy idea from in the first place? It is fairly obvious from an unbiased reading of the Bible, one that does not assume that it is right or wrong, that the writers probably believed in a flat Earth.
 
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Speedwell

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I should have read that. Where did he get that crazy idea from in the first place? It is fairly obvious from an unbiased reading of the Bible, one that does not assume that it is right or wrong, that the writers probably believed in a flat Earth.
I think the intent is to show that the Bible exhibits prescient knowledge of the shape of the Earth which atheists try to deny because it proves divine authorship.
 
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Subduction Zone

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I think the intent is to show that the Bible exhibits prescient knowledge of the shape of the Earth which atheists try to deny because it proves divine authorship.

And it is the literalists that make this error of thinking that the Bible has to be perfect. It is a self refuting belief and they hate the fact that they are only one small step away from being Flat Earthers.

I have also noticed that they think that all that accept the sciences have to be "atheists". The first people that refuted the Flood story were Christian geologists. When Darwin came up with his theory he was also still a Christian and the vast majority of scientists that accepted it were Christians as well.
 
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AV1611VET

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And it is the literalists that make this error of thinking that the Bible has to be perfect. It is a self refuting belief and they hate the fact that they are only one small step away from being Flat Earthers.
Or worshipers of the Phoenix? :doh:

Psalm 91:4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.
 
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Subduction Zone

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There are atheists who try to discredit the Bible by insisting that it teaches a flat earth.

There are also Christians who insist that the Bible teaches a flat earth, and that it is accurate in doing so.
The Bible is wrong in so many other areas that there is no need to focus on the Flat Earth teachings. Yes, it does teach a Flat earth, but that was a reasonable mistake for the time it was written in. Reasonable errors do not discredit the Bible.
 
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FEZZILLA

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Become? It's been that from the start. From the OP:

"This 2D flat interpretation is only less than 200 years old and it came from atheists who chose not to know the real meaning of the verse, but would rather make up a new meaning that the early Christian church would not recognize."
Its true. The allegation that the church taught flat earth before Columbus began in the 19th century by atheists. This is why FE cannot trace their beliefs past 200 years. The church always taught globe earth from the very start.
 
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Speedwell

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Its true. The allegation that the church taught flat earth before Columbus began in the 19th century by atheists. This is why FE cannot trace their beliefs past 200 years. The church always taught globe earth from the very start.
You appear to have moved the goalposts somewhat. I thought your assertion was that the Bible was prescient in teaching a spherical Earth. Of course Christianity (except for a few eccentric sects) has always accepted a spherical Earth, because by the time Christianity began the Earth was already widely known to be round, based on the work of Greek scientists.

The accusation that flat Earthism is an atheist concoction of the past 200 years is not something you have provided any evidence for.
 
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FEZZILLA

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That is just nonsense on your part, this is a form of a special pleading fallacy.



No, they seriously won't. They would be able to see that you are grasping at straws to deny the obvious. This really should not be that big of a deal to you. So what if the writers of the Bible did not know that the Earth was a sphere? There are quite a few other things that they got wrong as well. And no, atheists do not accuse the Catholic Church of that error. Most of them understand why Columbus was and why he was initially refused support. And please, you have not refuted one argument. You have merely posted logical fallacy after logical fallacy in support of your beliefs. Lastly why do you think that only atheists know of these errors?
I think its you who have become very desperate to keep your attack on Christians by who you continue to uphold a lie atheists have spread about the Bible and how it teaches flat earth when every single educated and clear minded person who reads this debate will see its been over for a long time and, as usual, atheists are wrong.

Please show me where in these three verses where you see the context of God's creation of earth, or His dominion over the earth and its inhabitants? There are three verses here and not one of them mention God's creation and dominion over the earth.


"He will surely violently turn and toss thee like a ball into a large country: there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house" (Strong's H1754 דּוּר dûwr, Isaiah 22:14 -- KJV).

"And I will camp against thee round about, and will lay siege against thee with a mount, and I will raise forts against thee" (Strong's H1754 דּוּר dûwr, Isaiah 29:3 -- KJV).

"Take the choice of the flock, and burn also the bones under it, and make it boil well, and let them seethe the bones of it therein" (Strong's H1754 דּוּר dûwr, Ezekiel 24:5 -- KJV).

The reason why none of these three verses mention God's creation of earth and/or His dominion of earth is because the word H1754 דּוּר dûwr is the wrong "circle" to use with the context of Isaiah 40:22. Its the same type of grammar error as using "there" when the grammar calls for "their." So the word dûwr cannot be used in Isaiah 40:22 to describe the shape of the earth, be it flat or round.

Notice the proper context of the two following verses:

Isaiah 40:22,

"It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in" (H2329 חוּג chûwg - KJV).

H2329 חוּג chûwg

Jeremiah 51:15,

"Yea euen the Lorde of hostes, that wyth his power made the earthe, with hys wysedome prepared the rounde worlde, and with his discrecyon spred oute the heauens" (H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl - 1537 Matthew's Bible).

Its the same proper application as using "their" in the proper sentence. Anytime the earth's shape is mentioned its in context with God's act of creation and His dominion over the earth.
 
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FEZZILLA

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You appear to have moved the goalposts somewhat. I thought your assertion was that the Bible was prescient in teaching a spherical Earth. Of course Christianity (except for a few eccentric sects) has always accepted a spherical Earth, because by the time Christianity began the Earth was already widely known to be round, based on the work of Greek scientists.

The accusation that flat Earthism is an atheist concoction of the past 200 years is not something you have provided any evidence for.
The OT antedates those Greek philosophers.
 
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Speedwell

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The OT antedates those Greek philosophers.
Isaiah 40:22 does not, being part of deutero-Isaiah which dates from the time of the Exile. But the point is moot, because Isaiah 40:22 does not overtly teach anything at all about the shape of the Earth, one way or another, and appears to be consistent with either belief.

But I still don't see any evidence for your claim that belief in a flat Earth was something concocted by atheists 200 years ago.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Its true. The allegation that the church taught flat earth before Columbus began in the 19th century by atheists. This is why FE cannot trace their beliefs past 200 years. The church always taught globe earth from the very start.
Let's see a reliable source then.
 
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Subduction Zone

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I think its you who have become very desperate to keep your attack on Christians by who you continue to uphold a lie atheists have spread about the Bible and how it teaches flat earth when every single educated and clear minded person who reads this debate will see its been over for a long time and, as usual, atheists are wrong.

Please show me where in these three verses where you see the context of God's creation of earth, or His dominion over the earth and its inhabitants? There are three verses here and not one of them mention God's creation and dominion over the earth.


"He will surely violently turn and toss thee like a ball into a large country: there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house" (Strong's H1754 דּוּר dûwr, Isaiah 22:14 -- KJV).

"And I will camp against thee round about, and will lay siege against thee with a mount, and I will raise forts against thee" (Strong's H1754 דּוּר dûwr, Isaiah 29:3 -- KJV).

"Take the choice of the flock, and burn also the bones under it, and make it boil well, and let them seethe the bones of it therein" (Strong's H1754 דּוּר dûwr, Ezekiel 24:5 -- KJV).

The reason why none of these three verses mention God's creation of earth and/or His dominion of earth is because the word H1754 דּוּר dûwr is the wrong "circle" to use with the context of Isaiah 40:22. Its the same type of grammar error as using "there" when the grammar calls for "their." So the word dûwr cannot be used in Isaiah 40:22 to describe the shape of the earth, be it flat or round.

Notice the proper context of the two following verses:

Isaiah 40:22,

"It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in" (H2329 חוּג chûwg - KJV).

H2329 חוּג chûwg

Jeremiah 51:15,

"Yea euen the Lorde of hostes, that wyth his power made the earthe, with hys wysedome prepared the rounde worlde, and with his discrecyon spred oute the heauens" (H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl - 1537 Matthew's Bible).

Its the same proper application as using "their" in the proper sentence. Anytime the earth's shape is mentioned its in context with God's act of creation and His dominion over the earth.


Sorry, but this post makes no sense. You seem to have a false assumption in it or two. The fact is that the Earth is only described as being flat in word and deed. Let's forget your failure with the verse in the OP, since you have to use all sorts of equivocation fallacies in languages other than the original. Let's deal with the seeing the entire Earth from a high point. Even with the excuse of being a "vision" this does not hold water. From a high point, and we are taking well outside of the Earth's atmosphere, one will see less than half of the Earth. But on a Flat Earth one could conceivably see the entire Earth.

By the way, I would suggest that you use a more modern translation than the King James. That is outdated English that misleads you and more modern translations are more accurate.
 
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FEZZILLA

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Sorry, but this post makes no sense. You seem to have a false assumption in it or two. The fact is that the Earth is only described as being flat in word and deed. Let's forget your failure with the verse in the OP, since you have to use all sorts of equivocation fallacies in languages other than the original. Let's deal with the seeing the entire Earth from a high point. Even with the excuse of being a "vision" this does not hold water. From a high point, and we are taking well outside of the Earth's atmosphere, one will see less than half of the Earth. But on a Flat Earth one could conceivably see the entire Earth.

By the way, I would suggest that you use a more modern translation than the King James. That is outdated English that misleads you and more modern translations are more accurate.
An atheist trying to lecture a master of translations is rather amusing. The two most accurate modern translations of the entire Bible containing old and new testaments are the MEV & NKJV. Other acceptable modern translations are ESV, RSV, YLT and for those already knowable about the Bible the NLT and HSCB can be handy for posting verses where all translations agree for the purpose of easier reading and comprehension. Even the older NIV 1984 Edition has its place.

However, I'm sure you would like to claim that the worst modern translations like NIV 2011 Edition, NRSV, NAB, NABRE, and other dubious translations. I've studied translations for many years and can tell you right off the bat that the most accurate English translations of the Bible are as listed in order of accuracy:

1. 1537 Matthew's Bible
2. 1539 Great Bible
3. 1568 Bishop's Bible
4. 1769 King James Bible
5. 1611 King James Bible.

Though somewhere on this list I would have to place the 1535 Coverdale Bible and 1876 Julia Smith Bible but not exactly sure where they would fit in. Both translations have their place among the most accurate translations.

Lets quick compare two verses with a few translations using H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl as the focal point.


Psalm 89:11,

"The heauens are thine, the earth is thine: thou hast layed the foundation of the rounde world, and al that therin is" (1537 Matthew's Bible).

"The heavens are Yours; the earth also is Yours;
the world and all that is in it, You have founded them" (KJV).

"Yours are the heavens, yours the earth;
you founded the world and everything in it" (NABRE).

"The heavens are yours, the earth also is yours;
the world and all that is in it—you have founded them" (NRSV).

Proverbs 8:31,

"As for the rounde compase of his worlde, I make it ioyfull: for my delyte is to be among the chyldren of men" (1537 Matthew's Bible).

"Smiling in the habitable globe of his earth; and my delight with the sons of man" (1876 Julia E. Smith Bible).

"Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men" (KJV).

"Playing over the whole of his earth,
having my delight with human beings" (NABRE).

"rejoicing in his inhabited world
and delighting in the human race" (NRSV).

Now first lets see how the Latin compares before presenting Hebrew definitions.

Psalm 89:11,

Latin Vulgate: "tui sunt caeli et tua est terra orbem terrae et plenitudinem eius tu fundasti"

✅Word: Orbem, from H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl &

Orbem, accusative singular of orbis.

Latin Definition of Orb
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...1C3101BFdaf7JC8bWfqfnUES8pHLJejlqzKFs34fZkGZE

Latin Definition of orbis
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...Y4_gnobiqvUerEs0564gaTwoE0z8DlalaE6ToGAkG8yHw

Latin Definition orbis terrae
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...MqZs5C5l3aNUBu4LmDyJKsm29ri5WwK7mH1fSd1bMFHv0

Latin Definition of Orbis terrarum
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...n5eEq3QIfdlW9wvdH8t0FdTJIJ_7MBAJRzcudA8VOUkTk

How to say "world globe" in Latin
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...Ka5_5MFejHTDlmLOwYoZhZa5otb8rEMy9Nc2uG-AAwe_s

Proverbs 8:31,

Latin Vulgate: "ludens in orbe terrarum et deliciae meae esse cum filiis hominum"

✅Phrase: Orbe terrarum, from H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl & H776 אֶרֶץ ʼerets

Latin Definition of Orbis terrarum
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...cv9DlFAlTqKDbiyktGZVRJzvwtBOw4I-AJxPcV_h9ubOs

How to say "world globe" in Latin
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...2cxMq2_1wxAz7bmoC6KOcVzNnfsVdN8_qDVG4834p5-q8



Hebrew Lexicons for H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl,

✅The New Strong's Exhaustive Expanded Concordance of the Bible. H8398

"8398. têbêl, tay-bale'; from H2986; the earth (as moist and therefore inhabited); by extension, the globe; by implication, its inhabitants; specifically, a particular land, as Babylonia, Palestine:—world [35x] habitable part, [1x].

The word signified, first, the solid material on which man dwells, and that was formed, founded, established, and disposed by God; and secondly, the inhabitants thereof. See TWOT 835h; BDB--385c, 1061d."

✅ Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon
46503575_10161103243135223_6829675694939701248_n.jpg

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

✅Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament.

TWOT 835h תֵּבֵל têbêl, tay-bale'; world.

"This noun is used in three basic situations. First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth, including the atmosphere or heavens (cf. Ps.89:12; II Sam 22:16; et al.). têbêl is often in parallelism or apposition with 'eres (I Sam 2:8; Isa.26:9; 34:1; et al.) when 'eres is used in its broadest sense of "the world." The "world" was created by God, not false gods (Jer.10:12; Ps.93:1) and it belongs solely to him (Ps.24:1). God's eternality is illustrated by his existence before the creation of "world" (Ps.90:2) and his wisdom (perhaps a personification of Christ) was present prior to the world's creation (Prov. 8:26, 31). Creation itself gives a "worldwide" witness to God's glory (Ps.19:4 [H 5]) which should result in Yahweh's praise (Ps.98:2). Yahweh will judge this "world," making it empty (Isa.24:4), though in the millennium God will cause Israel to blossom and fill the whole world with her fruit (Isa.27:6).

Second, têbêl is sometime limited to "countries" or "the inhabitable world." This meaning is more closely related to the root meaning. It refers to the world where crops are raised. This is observed in the judgment message against the king of Babylon (not Satan) for violently shaking the "world" or "inhabitable world" (Isa.13:11; 14:17). Lightning is said to enlighten the "world"---undoubtedly referring to a limited land area (Ps.77:18 [H 19]; 97:4).

Third, têbêl may also refer to the inhabitants living upon the whole earth. This is demonstrated by the parallelism of têbêl with I' umim (Ps.9:8 [H 9]) and 'ammim (Ps.96:13; 98:9). The context of these references is Yahweh's judgment upon the world's inhabitants---a judgment both executed in righteousness and instructive of Yahweh's righteousness (Isa.26:9; 34:1).

In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed. Everything belongs to Yahweh as his creation (Ps.50:12). Yahweh alone controls this world (Job 34:13; Nah 1:5) and his power is over all the earth which always responds to his presence (Job 37:12; Ps.97:4)".

✅New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis, Volume 4:

"9315. têbêl תֵּבֵל Nom. fem., world (#9315).

OT Found 36x exclusively in poetic texts, the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity. It sometimes occurs in parallelism with 'eres (Jer.10:12; Lam.4:12). Twice it is used together with 'eres, either to express "the whole earth" (Job 37:12), or perhaps in the sense of the inhabited earth (Prov.8:31). It is used frequently in contexts that associate it with Yahweh's creative act and that, as a result, express the stability or durability of the earth (1 Sam.2:8; Ps.89:11 [12]; 93:1; 96:10). It is used when the whole population of the world is referred to (Ps.24:1; 33:8; 98:7; Isa. 18:3; 26:9; Nah.1:5). Isaiah uses têbêl more than any other prophet, mostly in the context of universal judgment (Isaiah 13:11; 24:4; 34:1; cf. Ps.96:13; 98:9).

Land, earth: --> damd (ground, piece of land, soil, realm of the earth, #141); --> 'eres (earth, land, #824); --> têbêl (world, #9315)."
___________________________________________
Breakdown of Hebrew Lexicons for H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl,

✅Strong's: "; by extension, the globe;"

✅Gesenius': ",the habitable globe,"

✅TWOT: "First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth" <---AND---> "In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed."

✅New International: "the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity."

As you can see the 1537 Matthew's Bible (as well as other Tyndale Bibles) and 1876 Julia Smith Bible nail down the Hebrew meaning of H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl much better than other translations. St.Jerome also translated the word correctly.

In the Greek Septuagint, which gives us the clearest look at the original Paleo-Hebrew before it, the word têbêl is translated to its Greek equivalent G3625 οἰκουμένη oikouménē. Remember, The Greek Septuagint was translated by 72 Jewish elders.

Greek Septuagint: Proverbs 8:31,

ὅτε εὐφραίνετο τὴν οἰκουμένην συντελέσας
καὶ ἐνευφραίνετο ἐν υἱοῖς ἀνθρώπων.

Textus Receptus: Matthew 24:14,

και κηρυχθησεται τουτο το ευαγγελιον της βασιλειας εν ολη τη οικουμενη εις μαρτυριον πασιν τοις εθνεσιν και τοτε ηξει το τελος

The LXX: οἰκουμένην
The TR: οικουμενη

✅The New Strong's Exhaustive Expanded Concordance of the Bible, G3625 οἰκουμένη oikouménē

"οἰκουμένη oikouménē, oy-kou-men'-ay; feminine participle present passive of G3611 (as noun, by implication, of G1093); land, i.e. the (terrene part of the) globe; specially, the Roman empire:—earth, world."

It means "the globe," the inhabited part of the globe. The Greek equivalent differed from the Hebrew word only slightly. With the word oikouménē comes a wall of Greek philosophy which is vital in how we understand the definition. The Greek's excluded barbarians from true inhabitants of the earth while Jesus used the word to include everyone. Look, its Greek, and nobody said learning Greek was easy. I have a friend who moved to Greece back in 2008 and he still hasn't learned it even after taking Greek courses. Greek is very difficult to learn, harder than Latin. However, the word was used by globe earth Greeks like Crates of Malle and savants such as Pliny the Elder who was scornful of those unable to grasp the elementary fact that the earth is round. In the Greek world dur the times of the Septuagint and New Testament, the earth was spherical and this wasn't disputed. In fact, even the word "world" or "earth" meant "globe."

✅The New Strong's Exhaustive Expanded Concordance of the Bible, G1093 γῆ gē,

"γῆ gē, ghay; contracted from a primary word; soil; by extension a region, or the solid part or the whole of the terrene globe (including the occupants in each application):—country, earth(-ly), ground, land, world."

But like its earlier Hebrew relative têbêl, the word oikouménē is used according to the sense of the context, meaning either all or part of the globe. The church also applied oikouménē to the entire globe as it is contextually applied to the sense in Matt.24:14.

Simply put, no Greek word from Pythagora on up meant flat earth as belief in flat earth, especially after Eratosthenes, was very highly frowned upon. When Greeks said words like gē and oikouménē it always meant globe. Yet the Hebrew word têbêl, being much older than oikouménē, was slightly broader in scope, included all inhabitants and excluding nobody, while also including the atmosphere of the earth where it seems to have been excluded with oikouménē. But equivalents don't always nail things down with absolute 100% precision. Yet the 72 elders who translated têbêl to oikouménē chose a Greek word that has always been associated with the globe and its inhabitants. The NT uses oikouménē more in the sense of têbêl than in the Greek sense. But both words mean "the habitable globe" which is why the 72 Jewish elders translated têbêl to oikouménē in the Septuagint.

46503575_10161103243135223_6829675694939701248_n.jpg
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Subduction Zone

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An atheist trying to lecture a master of translations is rather amusing. The two most accurate modern translations of the entire Bible containing old and new testaments are the MEV & NKJV. Other acceptable modern translations are ESV, RSV, YLT and for those already knowable about the Bible the NLT and HSCB can be handy for posting verses where all translations agree for the purpose of easier reading and comprehension. Even the older NIV 1984 Edition has its place.

However, I'm sure you would like to claim that the worst modern translations like NIV 2011 Edition, NRSV, NAB, NABRE, and other dubious translations. I've studied translations for many years and can tell you right off the bat that the most accurate English translations of the Bible are as listed in order of accuracy:

1. 1537 Matthew's Bible
2. 1539 Great Bible
3. 1568 Bishop's Bible
4. 1769 King James Bible
5. 1611 King James Bible.

Though somewhere on this list I would have to place the 1535 Coverdale Bible and 1876 Julia Smith Bible but not exactly sure where they would fit in. Both translations have their place among the most accurate translations.

Lets quick compare two verses with a few translations using H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl as the focal point.


Psalm 89:11,

"The heauens are thine, the earth is thine: thou hast layed the foundation of the rounde world, and al that therin is" (1537 Matthew's Bible).

"The heavens are Yours; the earth also is Yours;
the world and all that is in it, You have founded them" (KJV).

"Yours are the heavens, yours the earth;
you founded the world and everything in it" (NABRE).

"The heavens are yours, the earth also is yours;
the world and all that is in it—you have founded them" (NRSV).

Proverbs 8:31,

"As for the rounde compase of his worlde, I make it ioyfull: for my delyte is to be among the chyldren of men" (1537 Matthew's Bible).

"Smiling in the habitable globe of his earth; and my delight with the sons of man" (1876 Julia E. Smith Bible).

"Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men" (KJV).

"Playing over the whole of his earth,
having my delight with human beings" (NABRE).

"rejoicing in his inhabited world
and delighting in the human race" (NRSV).

Now first lets see how the Latin compares before presenting Hebrew definitions.

Psalm 89:11,

Latin Vulgate: "tui sunt caeli et tua est terra orbem terrae et plenitudinem eius tu fundasti"

✅Word: Orbem, from H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl &

Orbem, accusative singular of orbis.

Latin Definition of Orb
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...1C3101BFdaf7JC8bWfqfnUES8pHLJejlqzKFs34fZkGZE

Latin Definition of orbis
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...Y4_gnobiqvUerEs0564gaTwoE0z8DlalaE6ToGAkG8yHw

Latin Definition orbis terrae
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...MqZs5C5l3aNUBu4LmDyJKsm29ri5WwK7mH1fSd1bMFHv0

Latin Definition of Orbis terrarum
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...n5eEq3QIfdlW9wvdH8t0FdTJIJ_7MBAJRzcudA8VOUkTk

How to say "world globe" in Latin
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...Ka5_5MFejHTDlmLOwYoZhZa5otb8rEMy9Nc2uG-AAwe_s

Proverbs 8:31,

Latin Vulgate: "ludens in orbe terrarum et deliciae meae esse cum filiis hominum"

✅Phrase: Orbe terrarum, from H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl & H776 אֶרֶץ ʼerets

Latin Definition of Orbis terrarum
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...cv9DlFAlTqKDbiyktGZVRJzvwtBOw4I-AJxPcV_h9ubOs

How to say "world globe" in Latin
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...2cxMq2_1wxAz7bmoC6KOcVzNnfsVdN8_qDVG4834p5-q8



Hebrew Lexicons for H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl,

✅The New Strong's Exhaustive Expanded Concordance of the Bible. H8398

"8398. têbêl, tay-bale'; from H2986; the earth (as moist and therefore inhabited); by extension, the globe; by implication, its inhabitants; specifically, a particular land, as Babylonia, Palestine:—world [35x] habitable part, [1x].

The word signified, first, the solid material on which man dwells, and that was formed, founded, established, and disposed by God; and secondly, the inhabitants thereof. See TWOT 835h; BDB--385c, 1061d."

✅ Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon
View attachment 255119
Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

✅Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament.

TWOT 835h תֵּבֵל têbêl, tay-bale'; world.

"This noun is used in three basic situations. First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth, including the atmosphere or heavens (cf. Ps.89:12; II Sam 22:16; et al.). têbêl is often in parallelism or apposition with 'eres (I Sam 2:8; Isa.26:9; 34:1; et al.) when 'eres is used in its broadest sense of "the world." The "world" was created by God, not false gods (Jer.10:12; Ps.93:1) and it belongs solely to him (Ps.24:1). God's eternality is illustrated by his existence before the creation of "world" (Ps.90:2) and his wisdom (perhaps a personification of Christ) was present prior to the world's creation (Prov. 8:26, 31). Creation itself gives a "worldwide" witness to God's glory (Ps.19:4 [H 5]) which should result in Yahweh's praise (Ps.98:2). Yahweh will judge this "world," making it empty (Isa.24:4), though in the millennium God will cause Israel to blossom and fill the whole world with her fruit (Isa.27:6).

Second, têbêl is sometime limited to "countries" or "the inhabitable world." This meaning is more closely related to the root meaning. It refers to the world where crops are raised. This is observed in the judgment message against the king of Babylon (not Satan) for violently shaking the "world" or "inhabitable world" (Isa.13:11; 14:17). Lightning is said to enlighten the "world"---undoubtedly referring to a limited land area (Ps.77:18 [H 19]; 97:4).

Third, têbêl may also refer to the inhabitants living upon the whole earth. This is demonstrated by the parallelism of têbêl with I' umim (Ps.9:8 [H 9]) and 'ammim (Ps.96:13; 98:9). The context of these references is Yahweh's judgment upon the world's inhabitants---a judgment both executed in righteousness and instructive of Yahweh's righteousness (Isa.26:9; 34:1).

In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed. Everything belongs to Yahweh as his creation (Ps.50:12). Yahweh alone controls this world (Job 34:13; Nah 1:5) and his power is over all the earth which always responds to his presence (Job 37:12; Ps.97:4)".

✅New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis, Volume 4:

"9315. têbêl תֵּבֵל Nom. fem., world (#9315).

OT Found 36x exclusively in poetic texts, the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity. It sometimes occurs in parallelism with 'eres (Jer.10:12; Lam.4:12). Twice it is used together with 'eres, either to express "the whole earth" (Job 37:12), or perhaps in the sense of the inhabited earth (Prov.8:31). It is used frequently in contexts that associate it with Yahweh's creative act and that, as a result, express the stability or durability of the earth (1 Sam.2:8; Ps.89:11 [12]; 93:1; 96:10). It is used when the whole population of the world is referred to (Ps.24:1; 33:8; 98:7; Isa. 18:3; 26:9; Nah.1:5). Isaiah uses têbêl more than any other prophet, mostly in the context of universal judgment (Isaiah 13:11; 24:4; 34:1; cf. Ps.96:13; 98:9).

Land, earth: --> damd (ground, piece of land, soil, realm of the earth, #141); --> 'eres (earth, land, #824); --> têbêl (world, #9315)."
___________________________________________
Breakdown of Hebrew Lexicons for H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl,

✅Strong's: "; by extension, the globe;"

✅Gesenius': ",the habitable globe,"

✅TWOT: "First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth" <---AND---> "In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed."

✅New International: "the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity."

As you can see the 1537 Matthew's Bible (as well as other Tyndale Bibles) and 1876 Julia Smith Bible nail down the Hebrew meaning of H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl much better than other translations. St.Jerome also translated the word correctly.

In the Greek Septuagint, which gives us the clearest look at the original Paleo-Hebrew before it, the word têbêl is translated to its Greek equivalent G3625 οἰκουμένη oikouménē. Remember, The Greek Septuagint was translated by 72 Jewish elders.

Greek Septuagint: Proverbs 8:31,

ὅτε εὐφραίνετο τὴν οἰκουμένην συντελέσας
καὶ ἐνευφραίνετο ἐν υἱοῖς ἀνθρώπων.

Textus Receptus: Matthew 24:14,

και κηρυχθησεται τουτο το ευαγγελιον της βασιλειας εν ολη τη οικουμενη εις μαρτυριον πασιν τοις εθνεσιν και τοτε ηξει το τελος

The LXX: οἰκουμένην
The TR: οικουμενη

✅The New Strong's Exhaustive Expanded Concordance of the Bible, G3625 οἰκουμένη oikouménē

"οἰκουμένη oikouménē, oy-kou-men'-ay; feminine participle present passive of G3611 (as noun, by implication, of G1093); land, i.e. the (terrene part of the) globe; specially, the Roman empire:—earth, world."

It means "the globe," the inhabited part of the globe. The Greek equivalent differed from the Hebrew word only slightly. With the word oikouménē comes a wall of Greek philosophy which is vital in how we understand the definition. The Greek's excluded barbarians from true inhabitants of the earth while Jesus used the word to include everyone. Look, its Greek, and nobody said learning Greek was easy. I have a friend who moved to Greece back in 2008 and he still hasn't learned it even after taking Greek courses. Greek is very difficult to learn, harder than Latin. However, the word was used by globe earth Greeks like Crates of Malle and savants such as Pliny the Elder who was scornful of those unable to grasp the elementary fact that the earth is round. In the Greek world dur the times of the Septuagint and New Testament, the earth was spherical and this wasn't disputed. In fact, even the word "world" or "earth" meant "globe."

✅The New Strong's Exhaustive Expanded Concordance of the Bible, G1093 γῆ gē,

"γῆ gē, ghay; contracted from a primary word; soil; by extension a region, or the solid part or the whole of the terrene globe (including the occupants in each application):—country, earth(-ly), ground, land, world."

But like its earlier Hebrew relative têbêl, the word oikouménē is used according to the sense of the context, meaning either all or part of the globe. The church also applied oikouménē to the entire globe as it is contextually applied to the sense in Matt.24:14.

Simply put, no Greek word from Pythagora on up meant flat earth as belief in flat earth, especially after Eratosthenes, was very highly frowned upon. When Greeks said words like gē and oikouménē it always meant globe. Yet the Hebrew word têbêl, being much older than oikouménē, was slightly broader in scope, included all inhabitants and excluding nobody, while also including the atmosphere of the earth where it seems to have been excluded with oikouménē. But equivalents don't always nail things down with absolute 100% precision. Yet the 72 elders who translated têbêl to oikouménē chose a Greek word that has always been associated with the globe and its inhabitants. The NT uses oikouménē more in the sense of têbêl than in the Greek sense. But both words mean "the habitable globe" which is why the 72 Jewish elders translated têbêl in the Septuagint to oikouménē.

View attachment 255119 View attachment 255126


View attachment 255127
View attachment 255128


I have serious doubts about your claim. A "master of translations" should know better than to commit the countless logical fallacies that you have.

And again, we are not discussing Greek beliefs. Try to avoid TLDR posts. There is a problem with using Christian sources if you think about it. There is just a sliiiiiiight bias problem with many of those scholars.
 
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Tinker Grey

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I have serious doubts about your claim. A "master of translations" should know better than to commit the countless logical fallacies that you have.

And again, we are not discussing Greek beliefs. Try to avoid TLDR posts. There is a problem with using Christian sources if you think about it. There is just a sliiiiiiight bias problem with many of those scholars.
Wanna bet that he got his degree from a xian diploma mill.
 
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An atheist trying to lecture a master of translations is rather amusing. The two most accurate modern translations of the entire Bible containing old and new testaments are the MEV & NKJV. Other acceptable modern translations are ESV, RSV, YLT and for those already knowable about the Bible the NLT and HSCB can be handy for posting verses where all translations agree for the purpose of easier reading and comprehension. Even the older NIV 1984 Edition has its place.

However, I'm sure you would like to claim that the worst modern translations like NIV 2011 Edition, NRSV, NAB, NABRE, and other dubious translations. I've studied translations for many years and can tell you right off the bat that the most accurate English translations of the Bible are as listed in order of accuracy:

1. 1537 Matthew's Bible
2. 1539 Great Bible
3. 1568 Bishop's Bible
4. 1769 King James Bible
5. 1611 King James Bible.

Though somewhere on this list I would have to place the 1535 Coverdale Bible and 1876 Julia Smith Bible but not exactly sure where they would fit in. Both translations have their place among the most accurate translations.

Lets quick compare two verses with a few translations using H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl as the focal point.


Psalm 89:11,

"The heauens are thine, the earth is thine: thou hast layed the foundation of the rounde world, and al that therin is" (1537 Matthew's Bible).

"The heavens are Yours; the earth also is Yours;
the world and all that is in it, You have founded them" (KJV).

"Yours are the heavens, yours the earth;
you founded the world and everything in it" (NABRE).

"The heavens are yours, the earth also is yours;
the world and all that is in it—you have founded them" (NRSV).

Proverbs 8:31,

"As for the rounde compase of his worlde, I make it ioyfull: for my delyte is to be among the chyldren of men" (1537 Matthew's Bible).

"Smiling in the habitable globe of his earth; and my delight with the sons of man" (1876 Julia E. Smith Bible).

"Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men" (KJV).

"Playing over the whole of his earth,
having my delight with human beings" (NABRE).

"rejoicing in his inhabited world
and delighting in the human race" (NRSV).

Now first lets see how the Latin compares before presenting Hebrew definitions.

Psalm 89:11,

Latin Vulgate: "tui sunt caeli et tua est terra orbem terrae et plenitudinem eius tu fundasti"

✅Word: Orbem, from H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl &

Orbem, accusative singular of orbis.

Latin Definition of Orb
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...1C3101BFdaf7JC8bWfqfnUES8pHLJejlqzKFs34fZkGZE

Latin Definition of orbis
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...Y4_gnobiqvUerEs0564gaTwoE0z8DlalaE6ToGAkG8yHw

Latin Definition orbis terrae
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...MqZs5C5l3aNUBu4LmDyJKsm29ri5WwK7mH1fSd1bMFHv0

Latin Definition of Orbis terrarum
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...n5eEq3QIfdlW9wvdH8t0FdTJIJ_7MBAJRzcudA8VOUkTk

How to say "world globe" in Latin
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...Ka5_5MFejHTDlmLOwYoZhZa5otb8rEMy9Nc2uG-AAwe_s

Proverbs 8:31,

Latin Vulgate: "ludens in orbe terrarum et deliciae meae esse cum filiis hominum"

✅Phrase: Orbe terrarum, from H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl & H776 אֶרֶץ ʼerets

Latin Definition of Orbis terrarum
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...cv9DlFAlTqKDbiyktGZVRJzvwtBOw4I-AJxPcV_h9ubOs

How to say "world globe" in Latin
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...2cxMq2_1wxAz7bmoC6KOcVzNnfsVdN8_qDVG4834p5-q8



Hebrew Lexicons for H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl,

✅The New Strong's Exhaustive Expanded Concordance of the Bible. H8398

"8398. têbêl, tay-bale'; from H2986; the earth (as moist and therefore inhabited); by extension, the globe; by implication, its inhabitants; specifically, a particular land, as Babylonia, Palestine:—world [35x] habitable part, [1x].

The word signified, first, the solid material on which man dwells, and that was formed, founded, established, and disposed by God; and secondly, the inhabitants thereof. See TWOT 835h; BDB--385c, 1061d."

✅ Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon
View attachment 255119
Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

✅Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament.

TWOT 835h תֵּבֵל têbêl, tay-bale'; world.

"This noun is used in three basic situations. First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth, including the atmosphere or heavens (cf. Ps.89:12; II Sam 22:16; et al.). têbêl is often in parallelism or apposition with 'eres (I Sam 2:8; Isa.26:9; 34:1; et al.) when 'eres is used in its broadest sense of "the world." The "world" was created by God, not false gods (Jer.10:12; Ps.93:1) and it belongs solely to him (Ps.24:1). God's eternality is illustrated by his existence before the creation of "world" (Ps.90:2) and his wisdom (perhaps a personification of Christ) was present prior to the world's creation (Prov. 8:26, 31). Creation itself gives a "worldwide" witness to God's glory (Ps.19:4 [H 5]) which should result in Yahweh's praise (Ps.98:2). Yahweh will judge this "world," making it empty (Isa.24:4), though in the millennium God will cause Israel to blossom and fill the whole world with her fruit (Isa.27:6).

Second, têbêl is sometime limited to "countries" or "the inhabitable world." This meaning is more closely related to the root meaning. It refers to the world where crops are raised. This is observed in the judgment message against the king of Babylon (not Satan) for violently shaking the "world" or "inhabitable world" (Isa.13:11; 14:17). Lightning is said to enlighten the "world"---undoubtedly referring to a limited land area (Ps.77:18 [H 19]; 97:4).

Third, têbêl may also refer to the inhabitants living upon the whole earth. This is demonstrated by the parallelism of têbêl with I' umim (Ps.9:8 [H 9]) and 'ammim (Ps.96:13; 98:9). The context of these references is Yahweh's judgment upon the world's inhabitants---a judgment both executed in righteousness and instructive of Yahweh's righteousness (Isa.26:9; 34:1).

In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed. Everything belongs to Yahweh as his creation (Ps.50:12). Yahweh alone controls this world (Job 34:13; Nah 1:5) and his power is over all the earth which always responds to his presence (Job 37:12; Ps.97:4)".

✅New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis, Volume 4:

"9315. têbêl תֵּבֵל Nom. fem., world (#9315).

OT Found 36x exclusively in poetic texts, the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity. It sometimes occurs in parallelism with 'eres (Jer.10:12; Lam.4:12). Twice it is used together with 'eres, either to express "the whole earth" (Job 37:12), or perhaps in the sense of the inhabited earth (Prov.8:31). It is used frequently in contexts that associate it with Yahweh's creative act and that, as a result, express the stability or durability of the earth (1 Sam.2:8; Ps.89:11 [12]; 93:1; 96:10). It is used when the whole population of the world is referred to (Ps.24:1; 33:8; 98:7; Isa. 18:3; 26:9; Nah.1:5). Isaiah uses têbêl more than any other prophet, mostly in the context of universal judgment (Isaiah 13:11; 24:4; 34:1; cf. Ps.96:13; 98:9).

Land, earth: --> damd (ground, piece of land, soil, realm of the earth, #141); --> 'eres (earth, land, #824); --> têbêl (world, #9315)."
___________________________________________
Breakdown of Hebrew Lexicons for H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl,

✅Strong's: "; by extension, the globe;"

✅Gesenius': ",the habitable globe,"

✅TWOT: "First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth" <---AND---> "In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed."

✅New International: "the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity."

As you can see the 1537 Matthew's Bible (as well as other Tyndale Bibles) and 1876 Julia Smith Bible nail down the Hebrew meaning of H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl much better than other translations. St.Jerome also translated the word correctly.

In the Greek Septuagint, which gives us the clearest look at the original Paleo-Hebrew before it, the word têbêl is translated to its Greek equivalent G3625 οἰκουμένη oikouménē. Remember, The Greek Septuagint was translated by 72 Jewish elders.

Greek Septuagint: Proverbs 8:31,

ὅτε εὐφραίνετο τὴν οἰκουμένην συντελέσας
καὶ ἐνευφραίνετο ἐν υἱοῖς ἀνθρώπων.

Textus Receptus: Matthew 24:14,

και κηρυχθησεται τουτο το ευαγγελιον της βασιλειας εν ολη τη οικουμενη εις μαρτυριον πασιν τοις εθνεσιν και τοτε ηξει το τελος

The LXX: οἰκουμένην
The TR: οικουμενη

✅The New Strong's Exhaustive Expanded Concordance of the Bible, G3625 οἰκουμένη oikouménē

"οἰκουμένη oikouménē, oy-kou-men'-ay; feminine participle present passive of G3611 (as noun, by implication, of G1093); land, i.e. the (terrene part of the) globe; specially, the Roman empire:—earth, world."

It means "the globe," the inhabited part of the globe. The Greek equivalent differed from the Hebrew word only slightly. With the word oikouménē comes a wall of Greek philosophy which is vital in how we understand the definition. The Greek's excluded barbarians from true inhabitants of the earth while Jesus used the word to include everyone. Look, its Greek, and nobody said learning Greek was easy. I have a friend who moved to Greece back in 2008 and he still hasn't learned it even after taking Greek courses. Greek is very difficult to learn, harder than Latin. However, the word was used by globe earth Greeks like Crates of Malle and savants such as Pliny the Elder who was scornful of those unable to grasp the elementary fact that the earth is round. In the Greek world dur the times of the Septuagint and New Testament, the earth was spherical and this wasn't disputed. In fact, even the word "world" or "earth" meant "globe."

✅The New Strong's Exhaustive Expanded Concordance of the Bible, G1093 γῆ gē,

"γῆ gē, ghay; contracted from a primary word; soil; by extension a region, or the solid part or the whole of the terrene globe (including the occupants in each application):—country, earth(-ly), ground, land, world."

But like its earlier Hebrew relative têbêl, the word oikouménē is used according to the sense of the context, meaning either all or part of the globe. The church also applied oikouménē to the entire globe as it is contextually applied to the sense in Matt.24:14.

Simply put, no Greek word from Pythagora on up meant flat earth as belief in flat earth, especially after Eratosthenes, was very highly frowned upon. When Greeks said words like gē and oikouménē it always meant globe. Yet the Hebrew word têbêl, being much older than oikouménē, was slightly broader in scope, included all inhabitants and excluding nobody, while also including the atmosphere of the earth where it seems to have been excluded with oikouménē. But equivalents don't always nail things down with absolute 100% precision. Yet the 72 elders who translated têbêl to oikouménē chose a Greek word that has always been associated with the globe and its inhabitants. The NT uses oikouménē more in the sense of têbêl than in the Greek sense. But both words mean "the habitable globe" which is why the 72 Jewish elders translated têbêl to oikouménē in the Septuagint.

View attachment 255119 View attachment 255126


View attachment 255127
View attachment 255128


That's all very interesting, but your posts don't address the questions we are asking.
 
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Meanwhile I decided to a little homework, this is the work of a person that does have a PhD in the field:

Science Then: The Bible vs. The Greeks Edition • Richard Carrier

He is an authority and he sites other authorities on the verse in the OP:

"First, the Bible. Isaiah 40:22 does not say the earth is a sphere. It says it is a circle. Which is flat. The word for circle is chuwg (Job 22:14 and 26:10; Proverbs 8:27). The word for sphere is duwr (Isaiah 22:18). The latter can also mean circle. But the former never means sphere. It refers to walking around a thing (a two-dimensional activity). The word for ball, instead, derives from heaping things up, from huts to garbage piles (a three-dimensional activity). Even Greek translations by ancient Rabbinical experts used gyron, “circle,” rather than sphaira, “sphere,” so even they understood this to mean circle and not sphere. So, in fact, Isaiah 40:22 says the earth is a flat disk. Like every other culture thought at the time. Babinski’s chapter cited above goes into more detail comparing the ancient Hebrew cosmology of the structure of earth and heavens throughout the Bible, well establishing it was the same primitive model adopted by everyone else of the time, not some fancy new scientific one."

Please note the Rabbinical scholars that translated Isaiah from Hebrew to Greek used the Greek word for circle and not for sphere, and the Greeks did have two clear words. The OP's own sources when referring to the Hebrew said that chuwg is an inscribed circle, not just the one that I presented earlier. That is always flat.

Last the OP still have not presented any evidence for this vast atheist conspiracy that began 200 years ago. Considering that the number of atheists at that time was very small I have just a little problem believing this on just his say so.
 
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