The pre-tribulation rapture

BABerean2 said:

Man said, vs. God said...

Mat 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Mat 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Luk 21:24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Luk 21:27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

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Did you know that the LaHayes are NOT pro-life?

They say that abortions should be done only when it's in the interest of the mother or the unborn child.

How does this differ from the pro-choice position?

Monk Brendan said:

Did you know that the LaHayes are NOT pro-life?

They say that abortions should be done only when it's in the interest of the mother or the unborn child.

How does this differ from the pro-choice position?

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No. I have never heard that.

Do you have a link to that information?

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BABerean2 said:

No. I have never heard that.

Do you have a link to that information?

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I read that in their book THE ACT OF MARRIAGE while browsing at a Christian bookstore.

Monk Brendan said:

I read that in their book THE ACT OF MARRIAGE while browsing at a Christian bookstore.

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There are some strange things about the church that LaHaye started, and the man who followed him in the pulpit who continues to promote the notes found in the Scofield Reference Bible.



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BABerean2 said:

There are some strange things about the church that LaHaye started, and the man who followed him in the pulpit who continues to promote the notes found in the Scofield Reference Bible.

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It might be good to mention something here.

The Bible experts of 2000 years ago had it worked out to the last comma just what the Messiah would do when He came.

He came, He didn't follow their agenda, and so they rejected Him.

I believe that at the Parousia, all the prophecies of His second coming will be fulfilled as completely and unexpectedly as were those regarding His first coming.

Monk Brendan said:

It might be good to mention something here.

The Bible experts of 2000 years ago had it worked out to the last comma just what the Messiah would do when He came.

He came, He didn't follow their agenda, and so they rejected Him.

I believe that at the Parousia, all the prophecies of His second coming will be fulfilled as completely and unexpectedly as were those regarding His first coming.

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Amen to the above.

Luk 19:41 Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it,
Luk 19:42 saying, "If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes.
Luk 19:43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side,
Luk 19:44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation."

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Biblewriter said:

I noticed this thread for the first time today, and have just finished reading through it for the first time. As I expected, the old lie that the doctrine of a pre-trib rapture was never taught before around 1830 popped up again, although this time, only one poster is maintaining it.

This claim had apparent merit when it was first made, in the mid to late 1800s. But at that time, the man who first made it at least had the decency to only make his statement that He was unaware that it had ever been taught earlier than that. But this very soon morphed into the now completely dis-proven claim that it was never taught before that time.

The original claim about this lay almost unnoticed until around forty or so years ago, when it was revived and began to be widely circulated. At first, this took pre-tribbers by surprise, for they were never even so much as interested in the history of the doctrine. But when this first began to be widely circulated, a few pre-tribbers began to actually research this question. And as they did, various examples of it being taught earlier than that began to pop up.

But the first exhaustive report on that subject to be published appeared in 2015, in a book titled "Dispensationalism Before Darby," by Williiam C. Watson, who is a professor of seventeenth and eighteenth century English at a Christian college in Coloraddo. This book contained well over forty pages of examples of writers who had taught a rapture significantly before the Lord comes in power and glory to judge the world for its wickedness. Some of these put it long before that time, and some only a short time before. But in all, he listed, on page two dozen such writers who had taught this before the year 1800.

This was followed in 2019 with a book titled "Ancient Dispensational Truth," by James C. Morris (yep- that's me.) In this book I devote no less than fifteen pages to examples of this having been taught in truly ancient times. The earliest case I quoted was Irenaeus, who clearly described a rapture before the great tribulation in a book thought to have been published between the years 186 and 188. And the LATEST example I quoted was by an unknown author whom modern scholars call pseudo-Ephraem. The date of this document has been estimated as early as 323 to as late as 627. But it is known to have been in church libraries before the year 800. That is, it unquestionably existed more than a thousand years before the birth of John Nelson Darby, who is falsely alleged to be the originator of this concept.

At this time we know of a certainty that this idea was taught by at least three or four writers from truly ancient times, by one or two from medieval times, by several dozen writers in the 1600s and 1700s, and by at least two writers in the early 1800s, before either Darby or his sometimes alleged source Irving ever published anything on the subject.

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The writings of so-called church fathers are under a cloud and it is as if anyone can find support for their contradictory views in these writings.I have not personally reviewed the writings of most claiming to have a pre-trib. view but if they are anything like that of pseudo Ephraem then you are clutching at straws in looking to them for support of your position.

His student said:

1.) We who are born again are not destined for God's wrath. He has promised to keep us from the wrath of God. That's the whole point of salvation.

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One of the main supporting reasons given,to sustain the secret rapture before tribulation theory,is that,because Christians are not appointed to wrath but to salvation,then,they have to be taken from the world before tribulation begins.


"For God hath not appointed us to wrath,but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."[I Thessalonians 5:9;Luke 21:36]

One of the promises to the Church in Philadelphia also speaks of then being kept from the hour of temptation to come upon all the world.[Revelation 3:10:See also Romans 2:7-9]

This type of reasoning puts into question God's ability to protect,if Christians have to be taken from the world in order to be protected from tribulations (temptations), perplexities and distress.This is not supported by the scriptures.Jesus asked:

"I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world,but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil."[John 17;15]

The apostle Paul added:

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man....,but will with the temptation also make a way to escape,that ye may bear it."[I Corinthians 10:13;See also,II Thessalonians 3:3;Matthew 6:13;26:41;II Peter 2:9]

The promise of the Lord therefore is to keep us in the world but away from evil and to strengthen us to bear temptations,(tribulations) not for us to escape from the world in order to escape these things.Hence to be kept from the hour of temptation is to be enabled by God to bear it.To use the promise to the Church at Philadelphia as a support for a rapture before tribulation is misleading as this promise was made to a Church in Asia in the first century.Also the Church at Smyrna was told to expect tribulation.[See, Revelation 2:9,10]

His student said:

2.) The Church is told to watch and wait for the Lord's return could be at any time. If we who know the Word of God are here in the Tribulation we will know exactly when the coming of the Lord will be. It will be some 3 and 1/2 years from when the anti-Christ seats himself in the temple proclaiming himself to be God. And yet - no man should be able to tell when the second coming is. Therefore we will not be on earth to see the desecration the anti-Christ brings to the temple.

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Where does it say in scripture that the saints will not know the time of the Lord's coming?Scripture clearly says we are not in the dark that the day should overtake us as a thief in the night.

1Thessalonians 5:
4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

The saints may not be aware of the exact time but they will be aware that the Lord's coming is near if they remain watching and sober.Not sure where you get 3 and 1/2 years from?

His student said:

3.) If the "rapture" takes place at the actual physical return of the Lord at the end of the Tribulation as some teach we will all be changed in that moment and put off our mortal bodies. If that happens and the rest of mankind is judged and destroyed as the scriptures say - there would be no people left to populate the Millennium up until the great rebellion against the rule of Christ takes place at the end of the 1000 year reign.

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You have not cited the scriptures used to support your theory but some of the known ones are:

Who are the "all" of Revelation 19?

Those who are joined to fight against the Lord are stated clearly:

"And I saw the beast,and the kings of the earth,and their armies gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse,and against his army."[Rev.19:19.]

There is no indication that this includes every person or unbeliever on the earth.

The beast and the false prophet were cast into the lake of fire; "...These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."[Rev.19:20.]

N.B. No mention is made of any action being taken against a set of persons who were said to have worshiped the beast.It is the remnant who were slain and given to the fowls.[Rev.19:21.] Remnant of what? Of the group mentioned in vs.19, ie."...the beast,and the kings of the earth,and their armies..."

Since the beast was cast into the lake of fire,then the remnant must be,"...the kings of the earth,and their armies.."

This is what is being said in Revelation 19:18.

"That ye may eat the flesh of kings,and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men,and the flesh of horses,and of them that sat on them,and the flesh of all men,both free and bond,both small and great."

The "all" is describing the variety or different types of men involved in the slaughter and feast,ie. all types of men as mentioned,and does not refer to every single human being.This explanation is given in vs.18 itself as after saying "all" the word is qualified by the statement following:

"...both free and bond,both small and great."[Rev.19:18.]

If this was not obvious,then as vs.21,mentions a remnant,then this must be the remnant of those mentioned in in vs.19 i.e. those other than the beast.Again this is not the entire population of the earth.

Also:

To use the "sheep and goat judgement" parable of Matthew 25:31-46,to determine the sequence of events in the coming of the Lord,is not a good idea,especially for the pre-trib rapture theory,as this and other parables show only one coming and gathering.There is no hint of a pre-trib.rapture.

The parable shows the final fate of two classes of people and does not indicate this occurs at the start of the millennium.This would rather include the results of the white throne judgement.[Rev.20:11-15;22:1;Matthew 25:31.]

The passage indicates this will happen when the Lord comes in his glory but not that the events depicted occur immediately at his coming.

N.B. The parable of the wheat and tares shows the destruction of the wicked occurs and then the righteous are gathered.This could only refer to events after the white throne judgement.[see,Matt.13:24-30;37-43.]This is what other parables signify; the final solution, not events leading up to it.[see also; Matt.13:47-50; 21:33-43;22:1-14.]

II Thess.1:7-10, is also used as proof that all unbelievers will be destroyed at the coming of the Lord. There are some difficulties which arise with this interpretation.

In the passage,this coming is described as the time when those who are troubled will gain rest from those who trouble them.This would mean that, according to Mr.S' interpretation,these persons would be tribulation saints but Paul addressed this to the Church at the time.He was telling them of how they(the Church) will be delivered from the tribulation they were/would be experiencing.[II Thess.1:3-7.]

According to the theory these are tribulation saints,while according to Paul this is the Church.

But are those destroyed,all the unbelievers of the earth?The context of the passage denies this.

Paul said the persecutions and tribulations suffered by the Church was a token of Gods' coming judgement.[II Thess.1:4,5.]

There will be judgement upon those who troubled the Church.[II Thess.1:6.]

It is they upon whom God will take vengeance and who will be punished with destruction at the coming of the Lord.[II Thess.1:8,9.] This does not refer to all unbelievers of the earth.The vengeance is for what they had done to the Church.As the Lord said:

"Dearly beloved,avenge not not yourselves,but rather give place unto wrath:for it is written,vengeance is mine;I will repay,saith the Lord."[Romans 12:19.]

This theory on a whole also produces something which scripture denies i.e. two classes of saints.One in immortal bodies and another in mortal ones.

Scripture affirms equivalent salvation for all saints.[Galatians 3:27-29.]

The reward at the coming of the Lord is the same for those who came to faith a long time ago and for those who recently came to faith.[Matt.20:1-16.]

Copperhead said:

Yeah, the "ekklesia" or "church" is only mentioned after chapter 3 in the closing salutations of the book of Revelation. Nothing really to do with the actual content of Revelation up to that point. Any reference to the ekklesia or church is absent from Revelation 3:22 onwards to Revelation 22:16.

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In order to escape the judgements/tribulations described in the book of Revelation,the rapture of the Church is said to take place at the moment John is told to, "come up hither".[Revelation 4:1]The 24 elders in this passage are said to represent the Church.Why would the 24 elders be used to represent the Church, when at another instant, the persons around the throne are numbered according to the amount present?[Revelation 4:1-5;7:9]Could the 24 elders be those who had been previously translated along with those resurrected after the resurrection of Christ?[Hebrews 11:5;II Kings 2:11;Matthew 27:52,53]


However,the apostle John was not actually caught up to heaven, but he was seeing these things in a vision, much in the same manner of Ezekiel, as he had similar visions about the throne of God.[Ezekiel 1:1,26-28;8:1-4;11:1-5;40:2,3;Daniel 8:1,2,27]


"...and the spirit lifted me up between the earth and the heaven,and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem,to the door of the inner gate that looketh toward the north..."[Ezekiel 8:3]


It is not even considered by those who propose this theory that, in Revelation 17:1-3,John is told to come hither again, and is brought into the wilderness.Does this mean John or the church was de-raptured?


The major reason, however, why this theory is not sustained by the book of Revelation,is because if this should be true, then the entire aim of the book would have been defeated.John told us the book was:


"The revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave unto Him to show His servants things which must shortly come to pass:...blessed is he that readeth and they that hear the words of this prophecy,and keep those things which are written therein:for the time is at hand."[Revelation 1:1-3]


This book is for the Church,not for the world and hence if the Church is raptured before the fulness of the prophecy has begun;then for what purpose was it given?Some may say it is only the messages to the 7 Churches which is relevant to Christians,but the angel of God ensured that we do not come to a wrong conclusion,as at the end of the book he said:


"...These sayings are faithful and true.And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to shew unto His servants the things which must shortly be done. Behold I come quickly:Blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book."[Revelation 22:6,7]



The Lord himself supports the angel:



"I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the Churches..."[Revelation 22:16]



Not just a portion of the book pertains to Christians,but all,and hence those who ignore certain portions of the book and say they pertain to Israel, or to some time after the "Church age", because the word church is not mentioned after a certain point do so at their own peril.

Jason0047 said:

"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (Revelation 3:10).

We are told that we will be kept from the hour of temptation that will come upon all the world to try them that DWELL UPON THE EARTH.

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Revelation 2:
9I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
10Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

A church without rebuke also told to expect tribulation.So which will it be or is your use of Revelation 3:10 to support a rapture before tribulation completely out of context.

Copperhead said:

Indeed. Throughout scripture, the "day of the Lord" is code phraseology for the end time. And if one does a thorough study of "day of the Lord" occurrences, they will come across passages that show the righteous are gathered and hidden from that day..... before it begins.

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Not entirely true.

There are many scriptures which describe the coming of the Lord and if carefully examined they clearly show that it is at the time when Christ comes to judge the world that He will call the saints (the Church) unto Him.Various terms are used to describe this occasion and this results in some confusion about the event.
Paul asked the Philippians to be without offence on the day of Christ.


"That ye may approve things excellent;that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ."[Philippians 1:10;2:16]

John told Christians to whom he was writing,that their love is being made perfect for the day of judgement(not for a secret rapture before the day of judgement).


"Herein is our love made perfect,that wemay have boldness in the day of judgement:because as He is,so are we in this world."[I John 4:17]


Peter says Christians should be looking for and hasting ie.,earnestly desiring,the day of the Lord or the day of God,and he also asks Christians to be without spot and blameless,ie., also without offence,perfect.


"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;in the which the heavens shall pass away with great noise....seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved,what manner of persons ought ye be in all holy conversation and godliness,looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God,wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved....,wherefore beloved seeing that ye look for such things,be dilligent that ye may be found of Him in peace,without spot blameless."[II Peter 3:10-14;see also,Mark 13:24-27;Matthew 24:29,30,43; I Thessalonians 5:1-4;3:12,13.]


From the above it is clear that Christians were being told to look for the day of the Lord when the world is to be judged and when they will be called to be in the presence of Christ.If Christians were to be raptured 3 1/2 to 7 years before this day,they would not have been warned about these things nor told to prepare for it.


Paul also told Timothy to keep the commands given to him until the appearing (not secret rapture) of the Lord.[I Timothy 6:14,15]


He also called it,that day,and he also hopes a Christian who had
been good to him will find mercy in that day.[II Timothy 1:12,18]



It is when the Lord is revealed from heaven in His glory that He will punish those who trouble the Christian,and also give the Christian relief from his tribulation,not in a secret rapture.


"And to you who are troubled rest with us,when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God..."[II Thessalonians 1:4-12;see also,I Peter 4:12-19]


From the preceding scriptures it is clear that the time of the gathering of the Church to Christ and the judgement of the world is called;that day,the day of Christ,the day of the Lord,the day of God,the day of judgement.

SeventyOne said:

Tim LaHaye has zero to do with the validity of the pre-trib rapture, anymore than you or I do. It is reality, no matter what people say for or against it.

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Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Based on the verse above, He will not return until He is ready to restore the creation to the way it was before the fall of Adam.
This is what we find in 2 Peter 3:10-13.
Peter was looking for the New Heavens and the New Earth, and I am looking for the same thing.

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BABerean2 said:

Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Based on the verse above, He will not return until He is ready to restore the creation to the way it was before the fall of Adam.
This is what we find in 2 Peter 3:10-13.
Peter was looking for the New Heavens and the New Earth, and I am looking for the same thing.

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Since we meet Him in the air, the rapture doesn't contradict this passage in any way.

safswan said:

One of the main supporting reasons given,to sustain the secret rapture before tribulation theory,is that,because Christians are not appointed to wrath but to salvation,then,they have to be taken from the world before tribulation begins.

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Hopefully we'll see each other on the way up or sometime thereafter.

Keep studying the Word until then and I'll do the same.

safswan said:

Revelation 2:
9I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
10Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

A church without rebuke also told to expect tribulation.So which will it be or is your use of Revelation 3:10 to support a rapture before tribulation completely out of context.

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Maybe you missed it. But this is a Pre-Trib and Mid-Trib thread. I am both for a Pre-Trib and a Mid-Trib. So if you disagree, you are in the wrong thread, friend.

In any event, may the Lord bless you.

Jason0047 said:

Maybe you missed it. But this is a Pre-Trib and Mid-Trib thread. I am both for a Pre-Trib and a Mid-Trib. So if you disagree, you are in the wrong thread, friend.

In any event, may the Lord bless you.

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Good way to avoid responding to the clear misuse of scripture by you.Your assertion above is incorrect.The OP stated:

"What I mean is the belief that believers will be taken off the earth prior to the "great tribulation" leaving a lot of unfortunates behind to suffer with the antichrist. Different people have different views on the idea. Personally I don't hold to it at all."

Hence he disagrees with the position you agree with.I guess he should not be here either?He subsequently asks others who have the view he doesn't agree with to comment.This,IMHO, does not preclude others who feel as he does from commenting also.Plus the thread is under the heading of,Controversial Christian Theology,not pre-trib or mid-trib safe house.

SeventyOne said:

Since we meet Him in the air, the rapture doesn't contradict this passage in any way.

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You claim this planet continues in sin for seven years after His return.
How can that be the restoration of all things?

Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

His feet left the earth and He went to heaven, in the passage above.
However, you claim He does not come all the way back to the earth when He returns for His Church.

You also ignore 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and Matthew 25:31-46, which show the judgment of the living at His Second Coming, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Timothy 4:1, and with what John recorded in Revelation 11:18.

You claim the 7th trumpet is not the last trumpet, even though there is no 8th trumpet in the Book of Revelation.

You claim the Church is a "Gentile Church", even though it is made up of all races of people.

You ignore the timing found below.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

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His student said:

Hopefully we'll see each other on the way up or sometime thereafter.

Keep studying the Word until then and I'll do the same.

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I hope we will.Sorry you didn't have time to respond to the corrections I made to your views and if the scriptures I cited were the ones used by you to support your views.

BABerean2 said:

You claim this planet continues in sin for seven years after His return.
How can that be the restoration of all things?

Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

His feet left the earth and He went to heaven, in the passage above.
However, you claim He does not come all the way back to the earth when He returns for His Church.

You also ignore 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and Matthew 25:31-46, which show the judgment of the living at His Second Coming, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Timothy 4:1, and with what John recorded in Revelation 11:18.

You claim the 7th trumpet is not the last trumpet, even though there is no 8th trumpet in the Book of Revelation.

You claim the Church is a "Gentile Church", even though it is made up of all races of people.

You ignore the timing found below.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

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The rapture isn't His second coming. There is no contradiction. It's amazing considering how often you stand against the pre-trib rapture, that you haven't yet grasped that particular aspect yet. In fact, when one considers the timing of the gathering of the living and dead by Lord given in Isaiah 26:19-21, the post-trib rapture is actually the contradictory concept.

safswan said:

The writings of so-called church fathers are under a cloud and it is as if anyone can find support for their contradictory views in these writings.I have not personally reviewed the writings of most claiming to have a pre-trib. view but if they are anything like that of pseudo Ephraem then you are clutching at straws in looking to them for support of your position.

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Having personally devoted well over forty years to an intense study of ancient writings, I am one of the very few who has actually analyzed what was said by Irenaeus and the other ancient writers who treated this subject. And I can confidently assure you that at least three truly ancient writers very clearly and distinctly taught a "catching away" of the church (no, they did not use the modern word "rapture") well before the Lord comes in power and glory to judge the world for its wickedness.

But I point this out ONLY to clearly demonstrate the falsehood of the claim that a rapture was never taught before the 1830s. As to whether or not the doctrine is correct, who first taught it and when it was first taught are BOTH totally irrelevant.

As to the rest of the reasoning you have presented in your string of posts, you are making the common error that the Lord is only returning one time. There is not even one scripture that says this. And there are many that clearly show this is incorrect.