Isaiah 40:22 -- "Globe of the Earth"

SeventyOne · Apr 20, 2019

Just out of curiosity, do you also have pictures of Jesus riding a flying unicorn or shaking E.T.'s hand? You could sell the three together as a fantasy collection.

FEZZILLA said:
View attachment 255076

Subduction Zone · Apr 20, 2019

FEZZILLA said:
I was going to post what Jesus says about the earth and then forgot.

Jesus says earth is a globe

Matthew 24:14,

Greek: "και κηρυχθησεται τουτο το ευαγγελιον της βασιλειας εν ολη τη οικουμενη εις μαρτυριον πασιν τοις εθνεσιν και τοτε ηξει το τελος"

Word: οικουμενη

The Greek word οικουμενη is the equivalent to the Hebrew word H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl.

The following article is useful for explaining the meaning of the word. The Greeks never associated οικουμενη with a flat earth. The word carries the same meaning as têbêl being the habitable globe. This link provides a history of the meaning and origin of οικουμενη.
Oikuomene

The New Strong's Exhaustive Expanded Concordance of the Bible, G3625 οἰκουμένη oikouménē

"οἰκουμένη oikouménē, oy-kou-men'-ay; feminine participle present passive of G3611 (as noun, by implication, of G1093); land, i.e. the (terrene part of the) globe; specially, the Roman empire:—earth, world."

The terrene part of the globe is the land occupied by its inhabitants. G3625 οἰκουμένη oikouménē is the Greek equivalent to the Hebrew H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl and both words are associated with the globe and its inhabitants.

Latin Vulgate: "et praedicabitur hoc evangelium regni in universo orbe in testimonium omnibus gentibus et tunc veniet consummatio"

Word: Orbe/Orb, from G3625 οἰκουμένη oikouménē

The phrase "universo orbe" means the whole globe and can also be expressed in Latin as totius terrae or the more common orbis terrarum/orbis terrae.

Latin Definition of Orbis
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...KxR3ohmvdEdsL-v3cufINsXQ_cCctWl-Cd25EuoDTh_64

In our English Bibles this is only expressed as "world" which neither defines the Greek or Latin words used. In Latin "the world" found in our English Bibles is orbis terrarum, which is the Latin equivalent for oikouménē.

Latin Definition for orbis terrarum
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...k3gJuC-Gy3BaqVz8ucULQwDj156mycGiklqlx3coFFl2w

Latin Definition for orbis terrae
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...9-Xmi_6y1aBMl_NBHL2FMrHsdjwJlCQto7xKYRlzngzr4

How to say "world globe" in Latin.
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...g8kAXeWGCr-0b7fZHElndHxp10CefFeXLv-ujEc-UfzLY

English: "And this good news of the kingdom shall be proclaimed in the whole habitable globe for a witness to all nations: and then shall the end come" (1876 Julia Smith Bible).
View attachment 255076

Are we discussing the beliefs of the Greeks? Or of Romans?

Subduction Zone · Apr 20, 2019

FEZZILLA said:
The Latin Vulgate is ancient and it was the most used Bible in all Christian history. So yeah, the Vulgate has a place in this conversation.

So you tell me: what does the Hebrew mean?

No, it is hardly "ancient". It is after the time of Jesus. Again, we are focusing on the beliefs of the writers of the Bible.

The Hebrew word used refers to not only a Flat circle, but an inscribed one. It refers to a circle made with a compass and they cannot be spherical.

AV1611VET · Apr 20, 2019

Subduction Zone said:
My one point is that Bible literalism leads to Flat Earth beliefs.

Leads who? you?

I'm a Bible literalist, and I usually know when something is literal, and something is a figure of speech.

And did it ever occur to you that anyone walking from Dan to Beersheba would have realized the earth isn't flat?

Judges 20:1 Then all the children of Israel went out, and the congregation was gathered together as one man, from Dan even to Beersheba, with the land of Gilead, unto the LORD in Mizpeh.

Subduction Zone · Apr 20, 2019

AV1611VET said:
Leads who? you?

I'm a Bible literalist, and I usually know when something is literal, and something is a figure of speech.

And did it ever occur to you that anyone walking from Dan to Beersheba would have realized the earth isn't flat?

Judges 20:1 Then all the children of Israel went out, and the congregation was gathered together as one man, from Dan even to Beersheba, with the land of Gilead, unto the LORD in Mizpeh.

Yes, you are. But you use an outdated translation that is too often mistranslated.

FEZZILLA · Apr 20, 2019

Subduction Zone said:
No, it is hardly "ancient". It is after the time of Jesus. Again, we are focusing on the beliefs of the writers of the Bible.

The Hebrew word used refers to not only a Flat circle, but an inscribed one. It refers to a circle made with a compass and they cannot be spherical.

Wrong. H2329 חוּג Chuwg does not mean circle. Chuwg is Hebrew...circle is an English word that derived from the Latin circulus.

Chuwg means chuwg. The English words are there as our guide to know what the Hebrew chuwg means. There are four words that describe the Hebrew word chuwg. Not just one.

Subduction Zone · Apr 20, 2019

FEZZILLA said:
Wrong. H2329 חוּג Chuwg does not mean circle. Chuwg is Hebrew...circle is an English word that derived from the Latin circulus.

Chuwg means chuwg. The English words are there as our guide to know what the Hebrew chuwg means. There are four words that describe the Hebrew word chuwg. Not just one.

Seriously, it means a line inscribed by a compass. In English that is a circle. Are you seriously claiming that words cannot be translated?

FEZZILLA · Apr 20, 2019

Isaiah 40:22, H2329 חוּג chûwg -- Breaking Down the Meaning

"It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in" (KJV).

Contents:
Latin Definitions
English Definitions
Hebrew lexicons for H2329 חוּג chûwg
Examining the 4 English Words Used to Describe Chuwg
Reference List to Other Globe Earth Verses.
____________________________________________
Latin Definitions

4th century Latin Vulgate translated from Hebrew & Greek text by St.Jerome.

Latin Vulgate: "qui sedet super gyrum terrae et habitatores eius sunt quasi lucustae qui extendit velut nihilum caelos et expandit eos sicut tabernaculum ad inhabitandum."

Word: Gyrum (aka, Gyrus), from H2329 חוּג chûwg

Latin Definition of Gyrus
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...8kX3xBkpCOlOQJjfwlh3yZL2TuNr_t1o4p-KdesSS0sro

"round noun: globus, orbis, circulus, circlus, circes
circle noun: circulus, orbis, circus, circlus, circuitio
orbit noun: orbita, orbis, circulus, circlus, circus
course noun: cursus, iter, tractus, curriculum, ferculum
gyration noun: turbo, vertigo, vortigo
curve noun: concavitas, concavum, curvamen, curvatura, cubitus
ring noun: anulus, annulus, corona, orbis, circulus
coil noun: orbis, spira, volumen, amfractus, arquus
cycle noun: circuitus, circumitus"

Phrase: gyrus terrarum

Latin definition of Gyrus Terrarum
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/d...9pgYLrlnoh-g0csxSc41MMBEXYUXhCaqjxzNWE_ebXsRQ

"globe of the earth"
_______________________________________________
English Definitions

The English Definition of circle and all its synonyms
I found great synonyms for "circle" on the new Thesaurus.com!

Right off the bat I found "orb, sphere, globe, horizon, round."

Going to the original Websters dictionary for the definition of circle.
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - Circle

If you have the actual facsimile of Webster's 1828 Dictionary there is more information than the online version--which appears to be the case with all online sources which lack in completeness. Noah Webster includes the following:

"2. In popular use, the line that comprehends the figure, the plane or surface comprehended, and the whole body or solid matter of a round substance, are denominated a circle; a ring; an orb; the earth.
He that sitteth on the circle of the earth. Is.xI."

An orb. Lets see what an orb is in English
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - orb

So an orb describes a sphere or a globe.

The English definition of globe
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - globe

"GLOBE, verb transitive To gather round or into a circle."

The English Definition of sphere
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - sphere

"3. An orbicular body, or a circular figure representing the earth or apparent heavens."
"4. Circuit of motion; revolution; orbit; as the diurnal sphere."

Strong's H2329, "circle" and "circuit"

The English definition of round
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - round

"1. Cylindrical; circular; spherical or globular. round is applicable to a cylinder as well as to a globe or sphere. We say, the barrel of a musket is round; a ball is round; a circle is round."

The English definition of circular
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - Circular

"1. In the form of a circle; round; circumscribed by a circle; spherical; as, the sun appears to be circular."

The definition of circuit
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - Circuit

"1. The act of moving or passing round; as the periodical circuit of the earth round the sun, or of the moon round the earth."

So the Hebrew word chuwg means the earth is circular as a sphere is circular. The word circuit means the earth moves!

English definition of compass
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - compass

"COMPASS, verb transitive
1. To stretch round; to extend so as to embrace the whole; hence, to inclose, encircle, grasp or seize; as, to compass with the arms."

Now lets look at synonyms for sphere
I found great synonyms for "sphere" on the new Thesaurus.com!

Circle is a synonym for sphere.

Synonyms for orb
I found great synonyms for "orb" on the new Thesaurus.com!

It says "sphere, ball, circle, round."

So it is very clear there is more than one application for the word circle. The application that best fits Proverbs 8:27 and Isaiah 40:22 is globe/sphere/orb.

Here is 4th century Bishop Ambrose reading from Isaiah 40:22.

"And further on: 'Who sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts, who stretcheth out the heavens as an arch?' Who, then, ventures to put his knowledge in the same plane with that of God?” (St.Ambrose, "Hexameron" The Fathers Of The Church series translated by John J. Savage, p.231).
______________________________________________
Hebrew lexicons for H2329 חוּג chûwg

The New Strong’s Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible,

H2328. חוּג Chuwg, kloog; a prim. root [comp.2287]; to describe a circle:--compass [1x]."

H2329. חוּג Chuwg, khoog; from 2328; a circle:--circle [1x], circuit [1x], compass [1x]."

Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon, H2329: "חוּג m. a circle, sphere, used of the arch or vault of the sky, Pro.8:27; Job 22:14; of the world, Isa.40:22."
______________________________________________
Examining the 4 English Words Used to Describe Chuwg,

So both Hebrew lexicons use 4 English words to describe the Hebrew word chûwg.

1. circle.

In old English the word circle, whenever applied to the earth, means globe. This is because the English word circle derived from the Latin circulus which also meant globe whenever applied to the earth, as circle even today is a synonym for globe. And since our English Bibles all came from old English translations, it is only wise we should consider the old English usage of the word and how it was applied in the Bible.

2. Compass.

This word is used to describe a circle that surrounds, environs, encompasses from all sides. Here is your latitude and longitude, where horizontal and vertical lines intersect. Job 26:10.

3. circuit.

While the word circuit shares much in common with a circle, it does not mean circle. It means the earth moves in a circle. This accounts for both the rotation of the earth and its circuit around the sun. Many times in the OT the word H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl is used to describe "the habitable globe." In Latin this word translates to orbis and an orb moves and orbits.

Webster's Dictionary 1828 Definition of Circuit
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - Circuit

That which applies to Isa.40:22

"CIRCUIT, noun
1. The act of moving or passing round; as the periodical circuit of the earth round the sun, or of the moon round the earth.
2. The space inclosed in a circle, or within certain limits.
3. Any space or extent measured by traveling round.
4. That which encircles; a ring; a diadem.
CIRCUIT, verb intransitive To move in a circle; to go round.
CIRCUIT, verb transitive To move or go round."

4. Sphere
If you understand the first three words you now see how the 4th carries the meaning sphere.

When all four English words that are used to define chuwg are examined, we understand that chuwg, when applied to Isaiah 40:22, means an earth that is an encompassing circle that circuits in space (suspended in space, Job 26:7).
Isaiah chose chuwg because it best captured how the word of the Lord described the earth to Isaiah in his own Hebrew language. It means the circle, compass, circuit, sphere of the earth -- "the chuwg of the earth."

Where do we see flat earth?

AV1611VET · Apr 20, 2019

Subduction Zone said:
Yes, you are. But you use an outdated translation that is too often mistranslated.

LOL

Subduction Zone · Apr 20, 2019

FEZZILLA said:
Isaiah 40:22, H2329 חוּג chûwg -- Breaking Down the Meaning

"It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in" (KJV).

Contents:
Latin Definitions
English Definitions
Hebrew lexicons for H2329 חוּג chûwg
Examining the 4 English Words Used to Describe Chuwg
Reference List to Other Globe Earth Verses.
____________________________________________
Latin Definitions

4th century Latin Vulgate translated from Hebrew & Greek text by St.Jerome.

Latin Vulgate: "qui sedet super gyrum terrae et habitatores eius sunt quasi lucustae qui extendit velut nihilum caelos et expandit eos sicut tabernaculum ad inhabitandum."

Word: Gyrum (aka, Gyrus), from H2329 חוּג chûwg

Latin Definition of Gyrus
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...8kX3xBkpCOlOQJjfwlh3yZL2TuNr_t1o4p-KdesSS0sro

"round noun: globus, orbis, circulus, circlus, circes
circle noun: circulus, orbis, circus, circlus, circuitio
orbit noun: orbita, orbis, circulus, circlus, circus
course noun: cursus, iter, tractus, curriculum, ferculum
gyration noun: turbo, vertigo, vortigo
curve noun: concavitas, concavum, curvamen, curvatura, cubitus
ring noun: anulus, annulus, corona, orbis, circulus
coil noun: orbis, spira, volumen, amfractus, arquus
cycle noun: circuitus, circumitus"

Phrase: gyrus terrarum

Latin definition of Gyrus Terrarum
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/d...9pgYLrlnoh-g0csxSc41MMBEXYUXhCaqjxzNWE_ebXsRQ

"globe of the earth"
_______________________________________________
English Definitions

The English Definition of circle and all its synonyms
I found great synonyms for "circle" on the new Thesaurus.com!

Right off the bat I found "orb, sphere, globe, horizon, round."

Going to the original Websters dictionary for the definition of circle.
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - Circle

If you have the actual facsimile of Webster's 1828 Dictionary there is more information than the online version--which appears to be the case with all online sources which lack in completeness. Noah Webster includes the following:

"2. In popular use, the line that comprehends the figure, the plane or surface comprehended, and the whole body or solid matter of a round substance, are denominated a circle; a ring; an orb; the earth.
He that sitteth on the circle of the earth. Is.xI."

An orb. Lets see what an orb is in English
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - orb

So an orb describes a sphere or a globe.

The English definition of globe
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - globe

"GLOBE, verb transitive To gather round or into a circle."

The English Definition of sphere
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - sphere

"3. An orbicular body, or a circular figure representing the earth or apparent heavens."
"4. Circuit of motion; revolution; orbit; as the diurnal sphere."

Strong's H2329, "circle" and "circuit"

The English definition of round
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - round

"1. Cylindrical; circular; spherical or globular. round is applicable to a cylinder as well as to a globe or sphere. We say, the barrel of a musket is round; a ball is round; a circle is round."

The English definition of circular
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - Circular

"1. In the form of a circle; round; circumscribed by a circle; spherical; as, the sun appears to be circular."

The definition of circuit
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - Circuit

"1. The act of moving or passing round; as the periodical circuit of the earth round the sun, or of the moon round the earth."

So the Hebrew word chuwg means the earth is circular as a sphere is circular. The word circuit means the earth moves!

English definition of compass
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - compass

"COMPASS, verb transitive
1. To stretch round; to extend so as to embrace the whole; hence, to inclose, encircle, grasp or seize; as, to compass with the arms."

Now lets look at synonyms for sphere
I found great synonyms for "sphere" on the new Thesaurus.com!

Circle is a synonym for sphere.

Synonyms for orb
I found great synonyms for "orb" on the new Thesaurus.com!

It says "sphere, ball, circle, round."

So it is very clear there is more than one application for the word circle. The application that best fits Proverbs 8:27 and Isaiah 40:22 is globe/sphere/orb.

Here is 4th century Bishop Ambrose reading from Isaiah 40:22.

"And further on: 'Who sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts, who stretcheth out the heavens as an arch?' Who, then, ventures to put his knowledge in the same plane with that of God?” (St.Ambrose, "Hexameron" The Fathers Of The Church series translated by John J. Savage, p.231).
______________________________________________
Hebrew lexicons for H2329 חוּג chûwg

The New Strong’s Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible,

H2328. חוּג Chuwg, kloog; a prim. root [comp.2287]; to describe a circle:--compass [1x]."

H2329. חוּג Chuwg, khoog; from 2328; a circle:--circle [1x], circuit [1x], compass [1x]."

Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon, H2329: "חוּג m. a circle, sphere, used of the arch or vault of the sky, Pro.8:27; Job 22:14; of the world, Isa.40:22."
______________________________________________
Examining the 4 English Words Used to Describe Chuwg,

So both Hebrew lexicons use 4 English words to describe the Hebrew word chûwg.

1. circle.

In old English the word circle, whenever applied to the earth, means globe. This is because the English word circle derived from the Latin circulus which also meant globe whenever applied to the earth, as circle even today is a synonym for globe. And since our English Bibles all came from old English translations, it is only wise we should consider the old English usage of the word and how it was applied in the Bible.

2. Compass.

This word is used to describe a circle that surrounds, environs, encompasses from all sides. Here is your latitude and longitude, where horizontal and vertical lines intersect. Job 26:10.

3. circuit.

While the word circuit shares much in common with a circle, it does not mean circle. It means the earth moves in a circle. This accounts for both the rotation of the earth and its circuit around the sun. Many times in the OT the word H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl is used to describe "the habitable globe." In Latin this word translates to orbis and an orb moves and orbits.

Webster's Dictionary 1828 Definition of Circuit
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - Circuit

That which applies to Isa.40:22

"CIRCUIT, noun
1. The act of moving or passing round; as the periodical circuit of the earth round the sun, or of the moon round the earth.
2. The space inclosed in a circle, or within certain limits.
3. Any space or extent measured by traveling round.
4. That which encircles; a ring; a diadem.
CIRCUIT, verb intransitive To move in a circle; to go round.
CIRCUIT, verb transitive To move or go round."

4. Sphere
If you understand the first three words you now see how the 4th carries the meaning sphere.

When all four English words that are used to define chuwg are examined, we understand that chuwg, when applied to Isaiah 40:22, means an earth that is an encompassing circle that circuits in space (suspended in space, Job 26:7).
Isaiah chose chuwg because it best captured how the word of the Lord described the earth to Isaiah in his own Hebrew language. It means the circle, compass, circuit, sphere of the earth -- "the chuwg of the earth."

Where do we see flat earth?

View attachment 255077

Repeating a bogus argument amounts to spamming. Let's deal with the Hebrew, no need for red herrings or equivocation fallacies:

Does the Hebrew word Chuwg mean a flat circle like a coin or a sphere Isaiah C40 verse 22

Subduction Zone · Apr 20, 2019

AV1611VET said:
LOL

Use of an interpretation that One does not understand is rather pointless. Tell us why you reject more modern and more correct translations.

AV1611VET · Apr 20, 2019

Subduction Zone said:
Tell us why you reject more modern and more correct translations.

It's too long of a story, and you probably wouldn't understand it if I told you.

And based on your posting style,* I'm not going to waste my time.

It's easier just to let you think I'm running away from the conversation.

* he-said/she-said

FEZZILLA · Apr 20, 2019

Subduction Zone said:
Seriously, it means a line inscribed by a compass. In English that is a circle. Are you seriously claiming that words cannot be translated?

Are you saying that lexicons and ancient Bibles are wrong and you know more about Hebrew than 2000 years of dedicated scholars? Funny how you try and blow off the Latin Vulgate since it refutes your atheist views of Scripture. Have fun with this one.

H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl

This is not a complete and comprehensive list either.

1. 1 Samuel 2:8,

"He reyseth vp the poore out of the duste, and lyfteth vp the begger from the dong hill: to set them among princes, and to enheret them with the seate of glory. For the pyllers of the earth are the Lordes, and he hath set the rounde worlde vpon them" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew-Tyndale Bible).

"He reyseth vp the poore out of the dust, and lyfteth vp the begger from the dong hyll: to sett them amonge princes, and to enherett them with the seate of glorye. For the pillers of the erth are the lordes, and he hath sett the rounde worlde vpon them" (1539 Great Bible).

"Raising up the weak from the dust, he will raise up the needy from the dung-hill to sit with the noble, and he will cause them to inherit a throne of glory, for to Jehovah the castings of the earth, and he will put the habitable globe upon them" (1876 Julia E. Smith Bible).

2. Job 37:12,

"Being turned by his guidance to their doing all that he commanded them upon the face of the habitable globe of the earth" (Strong's H2015 הָפַךְ hâphak, H4524 מֵסַב mêçab, H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl, H776 אֶרֶץ ʼerets -- 1876 Julia E. Smith Bible).

3. Psalm 18:15,

"The sprynges of waters were sene, and the foundacyons of the rounde worlde were discouered at thy chidynge (O Lorde) at the blastynge and breth of thy displeasures" (1537 Matthew's Bible).

"And the bottomes of waters appeared, and the foundations of the rounde worlde were discouered at thy chidyng, O God: at the blast of the breath of thine anger" (1568 Bishop's Bible).

"And the channels of waters will be seen, and the foundations of the habitable globe will be uncovered from thy rebuke, O Jehovah, from the breathing of the spirit of thine anger" (1876 Julia E. Smith Bible).

4. Psalm 19:4,

English: "Their line went forth into all the earth, and their words into the ends of the habitable globe. In them he set a tent for the sun" (H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl - 1876 Julia E. Smith Bible).

5. Psalm 89:11,

"The heauens are thine, the earth is thine: thou hast layed the foundation of the rounde world, and al that therin is" (1537 Matthew's Bible).

"The heauens are thyne, the earth also is thyne: thou hast layed the foundacyon of the rounde worlde, and all that therin is" (1539 Great Bible).

"To thee the heavens, also to thee the earth; the habitable globe and its fulness thou didst found them" (1876 Julia E. Smith Bible).

6. Proverbs 8:31,

"As for the rounde compase of his worlde, I make it ioyfull: for my delyte is to be among the chyldren of men" (1537 Matthew's Bible).

"As for the rounde compasse of this worlde I make it ioyfull: for my delite is to be among the chyldren of men" (1568 Bishop's Bible).

7. Isaiah 18:3,

"Yee all ye yt syt in the compasse of the worlde, and dwell vpon the earth: when the token shalbe geuen vpo the mountaynes, then loke vp: and when the horne bloweth, then herken to" (1535 Coverdale Bible).

"Yea, al ye that syt in the compasse of the worlde, and dwell vpon the earthe, when the token shalbe geuen vpon the mountaynes, then loke vp: & when the horne bloweth, then herken to" (1537 Matthew's Bible).

"All ye inhabiting the habitable globe, and dwelling in the earth, when lifting up a signal on the mountains, ye shall see; and when striking the trumpet, ye shall hear" (1876 Julia E. Smith Bible).

8. Isaiah 34:1,

"Come ye Heithen & heare, take hede ye people. Herken thou earth & all that is therin: thou rounde compasse & all that groweth there vpon" (1537 Matthew's Bible).

"Come ye Heythen and heare, take hede ye people. Herken thou erth & all that is therin: thou round compasse and all that groweth there vpon" (1539 Great Bible).

"Come ye heathen and heare, take heede you people: hearken thou earth and all that is therin, thou rounde compasse and all that dwelleth thervpon" (1568 Bishop's Bible).

"Draw near, ye nations, to hear; and ye people, attend: the earth shall hear, and its fulness; the habitable globe, and all its offspring" (1876 Julia E. Smith Bible).

9. Jeremiah 10:12,

"But (as for oure God) he made the earth with his power, and with hys wysdom hath he fynished the whole compasse of the worlde, wyth hys discrecion hath he spred oute the heauens" (1537 Matthew's Bible).

"But as for our God he made the earth with his power, and with his wisdome doth he order the whole compasse of the worlde, with his discretion hath he spread out the heauens" (1568 Bishop's Bible).

10. Jeremiah 51:15,

"Yea euen the Lorde of hostes, that wyth his power made the earthe, with hys wysedome prepared the rounde worlde, and with his discrecyon spred oute the heauens" (1537 Matthew's Bible).

"Yee, euen the Lorde of hostes, that wt his power made the earth, wt hys wysdome prepared the rounde worlde, and with his discretion spred out the heauens" (1539 Great Bible).

"Yea euen the Lorde of hoastes that with his power made the earth, with his wisdome prepared the round world, and with his discretion spread out the heauens" (1568 Bishop's Bible).

"He made the earth by his power, he prepared the habitable globe by his wisdom, and by his understanding he stretched forth the heavens" (1876 Julia E. Smith Bible).

Hebrew Lexicons for H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl,

The New Strong's Exhaustive Expanded Concordance of the Bible. H8398

"8398. têbêl, tay-bale'; from H2986; the earth (as moist and therefore inhabited); by extension, the globe; by implication, its inhabitants; specifically, a particular land, as Babylonia, Palestine:—world [35x] habitable part, [1x].

The word signified, first, the solid material on which man dwells, and that was formed, founded, established, and disposed by God; and secondly, the inhabitants thereof. See TWOT 835h; BDB--385c, 1061d."

Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon

Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament.

TWOT 835h תֵּבֵל têbêl, tay-bale'; world.

"This noun is used in three basic situations. First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth, including the atmosphere or heavens (cf. Ps.89:12; II Sam 22:16; et al.). têbêl is often in parallelism or apposition with 'eres (I Sam 2:8; Isa.26:9; 34:1; et al.) when 'eres is used in its broadest sense of "the world." The "world" was created by God, not false gods (Jer.10:12; Ps.93:1) and it belongs solely to him (Ps.24:1). God's eternality is illustrated by his existence before the creation of "world" (Ps.90:2) and his wisdom (perhaps a personification of Christ) was present prior to the world's creation (Prov. 8:26, 31). Creation itself gives a "worldwide" witness to God's glory (Ps.19:4 [H 5]) which should result in Yahweh's praise (Ps.98:2). Yahweh will judge this "world," making it empty (Isa.24:4), though in the millennium God will cause Israel to blossom and fill the whole world with her fruit (Isa.27:6).

Second, têbêl is sometime limited to "countries" or "the inhabitable world." This meaning is more closely related to the root meaning. It refers to the world where crops are raised. This is observed in the judgment message against the king of Babylon (not Satan) for violently shaking the "world" or "inhabitable world" (Isa.13:11; 14:17). Lightning is said to enlighten the "world"---undoubtedly referring to a limited land area (Ps.77:18 [H 19]; 97:4).

Third, têbêl may also refer to the inhabitants living upon the whole earth. This is demonstrated by the parallelism of têbêl with I' umim (Ps.9:8 [H 9]) and 'ammim (Ps.96:13; 98:9). The context of these references is Yahweh's judgment upon the world's inhabitants---a judgment both executed in righteousness and instructive of Yahweh's righteousness (Isa.26:9; 34:1).

In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed. Everything belongs to Yahweh as his creation (Ps.50:12). Yahweh alone controls this world (Job 34:13; Nah 1:5) and his power is over all the earth which always responds to his presence (Job 37:12; Ps.97:4)".

New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis, Volume 4:

"9315. têbêl תֵּבֵל Nom. fem., world (#9315).

OT Found 36x exclusively in poetic texts, the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity. It sometimes occurs in parallelism with 'eres (Jer.10:12; Lam.4:12). Twice it is used together with 'eres, either to express "the whole earth" (Job 37:12), or perhaps in the sense of the inhabited earth (Prov.8:31). It is used frequently in contexts that associate it with Yahweh's creative act and that, as a result, express the stability or durability of the earth (1 Sam.2:8; Ps.89:11 [12]; 93:1; 96:10). It is used when the whole population of the world is referred to (Ps.24:1; 33:8; 98:7; Isa. 18:3; 26:9; Nah.1:5). Isaiah uses têbêl more than any other prophet, mostly in the context of universal judgment (Isaiah 13:11; 24:4; 34:1; cf. Ps.96:13; 98:9).

Land, earth: --> damd (ground, piece of land, soil, realm of the earth, #141); --> 'eres (earth, land, #824); --> têbêl (world, #9315)."
___________________________________________
Breakdown of Hebrew Lexicons for H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl,

Strong's: "; by extension, the globe;"

Gesenius': ",the habitable globe,"

TWOT: "First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth" <----AND--->"In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed."

New International: "the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity."

So Isaiah used chuwg to say the earth is flat but then used tebel to say it was round? And Solomon used chuwg for flat earth in Pro.8:27 but only 4 verses later used tebel to say it was round? I don't think so! Nobody is that stupid. Chuwg means globe and tebel means the habitable globe.

FEZZILLA · Apr 20, 2019

Subduction Zone said:
Repeating a bogus argument amounts to spamming. Let's deal with the Hebrew, no need for red herrings or equivocation fallacies:

Does the Hebrew word Chuwg mean a flat circle like a coin or a sphere Isaiah C40 verse 22

That link isn't even legit. Your really thing think that H1754 דּוּר dûwr is applicable to Isaiah 40:22? If you think this than you most miserably flunk Hebrew!

Hebrew is the contextual driven language. Once you understand how Hebrew words are applied in context you will then be on your way of learning Hebrew.

Here are all the verses in the Bible where H1754 דּוּר dûwr is applied.

"He will surely violently turn and toss thee like a ball into a large country: there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house" (Strong's H1754: דּוּר dûwr, Isaiah 22:14 -- KJV).

"And I will camp against thee round about, and will lay siege against thee with a mount, and I will raise forts against thee" (Strong's H1754: דּוּר dûwr, Isaiah 29:3 -- KJV).

"Take the choice of the flock, and burn also the bones under it, and make it boil well, and let them seethe the bones of it therein" (Strong's H1754: דּוּר dûwr, Ezekiel 24:5 -- KJV).

Not once is this word applied to the shape of the earth. I'm sure you and other atheists will say in reply: "That's exactly my point!" Nice amateur reply! Every single atheist who uses that reply has proven they do not know Hebrew but merely pretend to know Hebrew so they can advance their trills of spreading false propaganda.

Anytime in Hebrew the earth's shape is mentioned its in direct connection to God's creation of the earth; His dominion over the earth and its inhabitants. So since dûwr has no association with the context of creation it is not even a viable option to apply to Isaiah 40:22, be it flat or round. This is because to use dûwr in Isaiah 40:22 would be for Isaiah to commit himself to a Hebrew grammar error by using a word that has no place in the context he is trying to express. Chuwg is used exclusively with God's creation and tebel is also applicable to God's creation of earth. But you see the English word ball and think globe. But words like "circle" and "ball" have other meanings in English just as they do in Hebrew. Not one of those verses is in context with God's creation of earth which means its not a viable option. Hebrew is not English and that's something I've noticed atheists don't seem to understand.

Subduction Zone · Apr 20, 2019

AV1611VET said:
It's too long of a story, and you probably wouldn't understand it if I told you.

And based on your posting style,* I'm not going to waste my time.

It's easier just to let you think I'm running away from the conversation.

* he-said/she-said

I probably would understand it better than you do. Why not consider using a better source? When the experts in the field, and this includes Christians have a different interpretation than a rank amateur does it is wise for the rank amateur to reconsider.

Subduction Zone · Apr 20, 2019

FEZZILLA said:
That link isn't even legit. Your really thing think that H1754 דּוּר dûwr is applicable to Isaiah 40:22? If you think this than you most miserably flunk Hebrew!

It is just as legit as any of yours and it also agrees with the actual Hebrew that you copied and pasted used. And it is far more legit than any Christian apologist source. Those tend to be very dishonest sites.

Hebrew is the contextual driven language. Once you understand how Hebrew words are applied in context you will then be on your way of learning Hebrew.

Here are all the verses in the Bible where H1754 דּוּר dûwr is applied.

"He will surely violently turn and toss thee like a ball into a large country: there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house" (Strong's H1754: דּוּר dûwr, Isaiah 22:14 -- KJV).

"And I will camp against thee round about, and will lay siege against thee with a mount, and I will raise forts against thee" (Strong's H1754: דּוּר dûwr, Isaiah 29:3 -- KJV).

"Take the choice of the flock, and burn also the bones under it, and make it boil well, and let them seethe the bones of it therein" (Strong's H1754: דּוּר dûwr, Ezekiel 24:5 -- KJV).

Not once is this word applied to the shape of the earth. I'm sure you and other atheists will say in reply: "That's exactly my point!" Nice amateur reply! Every single atheist who uses that reply has proven they do not know Hebrew but merely pretend to know Hebrew so they can advance their trills of spreading false propaganda.

Quite the opposite. They have demonstrated that they understand it better than you do. You are approaching this with a bias. Atheists are trying to approach this from a neutral position, they are not claiming that the Bible is right, they are not claiming that it is wrong. They are merely interpreting.

Anytime in Hebrew the earth's shape is mentioned its in direct connection to God's creation of the earth; His dominion over the earth and its inhabitants. So since dûwr has no association with the context of creation it is not even a viable option to apply to Isaiah 40:22, be it flat or round. This is because to use dûwr in Isaiah 40:22 would be for Isaiah to commit himself to a Hebrew grammar error by using a word that has no place in the context he is trying to express. Chuwg is used exclusively with God's creation and tebel is also applicable to God's creation of earth. But you see the English word ball and think globe. But words like "circle" and "ball" have other meanings in English just as they do in Hebrew. Not one of those verses is in context with God's creation of earth which means its not a viable option. Hebrew is not English and that's something I've noticed atheists don't seem to understand.

I am sorry, but his is pointless word salad on your part. If you want to claim that it means "globe" you need to do much better than you have so far.

FEZZILLA · Apr 20, 2019

Subduction Zone said:
It is just as legit as any of yours and it also agrees with the actual Hebrew that you copied and pasted used. And it is far more legit than any Christian apologist source. Those tend to be very dishonest sites.

No, it is not applicable to Isaiah 40:22! The word has to be applicable with the context of God's creation before it can be applied or it is a grammar error in the same manner as how the word "there" is often misplaced in a sentence where "their" or "they're" should have been applied.

Subduction Zone said:
Quite the opposite. They have demonstrated that they understand it better than you do. You are approaching this with a bias. Atheists are trying to approach this from a neutral position, they are not claiming that the Bible is right, they are not claiming that it is wrong. They are merely interpreting.

Yeah, and anyone who is a serious scholar of Hebrew will agree with every word I say here. Atheists have been trying to discredited the Bible by using accusing Scripture of teaching flat earth since the 19th century when these flat earth arguments began. Atheists accuse the church of being flat earthers before Columbus and that lie spread by atheists is also very well refuted. But do atheists give up on their refuted arguments? No, they keep pumping them out after being well refuted which is very disingenuous of atheists and shows how their bias drives them to constantly lie about something they know isn't true. If lying is all atheists can do then there is no point in being an atheist.

Speedwell · Apr 20, 2019

FEZZILLA said:
No, it is not applicable to Isaiah 40:22! The word has to be applicable with the context of God's creation before it can be applied or it is a grammar error in the same manner as how the word "there" is often misplaced in a sentence where "their" or "they're" should have been applied.

Yeah, and anyone who is a serious scholar of Hebrew will agree with every word I say here. Atheists have been trying to discredited the Bible by using accusing Scripture of teaching flat earth since the 19th century when these flat earth arguments began. Atheists accuse the church of being flat earthers before Columbus and that lie spread by atheists is also very well refuted. But do atheists give up on their refuted arguments? No, they keep pumping them out after being well refuted which is very disingenuous of atheists and shows how their bias drives them to constantly lie about something they know isn't true. If lying is all atheists can do then there is no point in being an atheist.

I don't know of any actual atheists who do that. Do you?

Subduction Zone · Apr 20, 2019

FEZZILLA said:
No, it is not applicable to Isaiah 40:22! The word has to be applicable with the context of God's creation before it can be applied or it is a grammar error in the same manner as how the word "there" is often misplaced in a sentence where "their" or "they're" should have been applied.

That is just nonsense on your part, this is a form of a special pleading fallacy.

Yeah, and anyone who is a serious scholar of Hebrew will agree with every word I say here. Atheists have been trying to discredited the Bible by using accusing Scripture of teaching flat earth since the 19th century when these flat earth arguments began. Atheists accuse the church of being flat earthers before Columbus and that lie spread by atheists is also very well refuted. But do atheists give up on their refuted arguments? No, they keep pumping them out after being well refuted which is very disingenuous of atheists and shows how their bias drives them to constantly lie about something they know isn't true. If lying is all atheists can do then there is no point in being an atheist.

No, they seriously won't. They would be able to see that you are grasping at straws to deny the obvious. This really should not be that big of a deal to you. So what if the writers of the Bible did not know that the Earth was a sphere? There are quite a few other things that they got wrong as well. And no, atheists do not accuse the Catholic Church of that error. Most of them understand why Columbus was and why he was initially refused support. And please, you have not refuted one argument. You have merely posted logical fallacy after logical fallacy in support of your beliefs. Lastly why do you think that only atheists know of these errors?

Subduction Zone · Apr 20, 2019

Speedwell said:
I don't know of any actual atheists who do that. Do you?

I think that he is desperate. This has become a general attack on atheists.

Isaiah 40:22 -- "Globe of the Earth"

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