Who Does Baptism Benefit?

Albion · Apr 20, 2019

Tree of Life said:
I should say that it's very important that we participate in the sacraments in order to receive their confirming grace. But we participate in baptism only once. When we see a baby or anyone else get baptized, those who have also been baptized and who believe in Christ experience the blessings of that sacrament as they reflect on their own baptism.

No, they don't. The most that might be said is that there is some value in reflecting upon ones baptism whenever that occurs or whatever the impetus might be. But that is wholly different from what the recipient of the sacrament gets.

Tree of Life · Apr 20, 2019

Albion said:
No, they don't. The most that might be said is that there is some value in reflecting upon ones baptism whenever that occurs or whatever the impetus might be. But that is wholly different from what the recipient of the sacrament gets.

Believing recipients of baptism get assurance from God. When children who have been baptized grow up and put their faith in Christ, then they gain the assurance that "as surely as I have been baptized, so have I been grafted into Christ."

What do you suppose that baptized infants get from their baptism?

Albion · Apr 20, 2019

Tree of Life said:
Even then, the sacraments are what they are because they are specifically ordained and blessed by Christ. [/quote

That's true.

[qutoe The Spirit has not promised to meet us in a Michaelangelo painting, but he has promised to meet us in the Lord's Supper.

Then the stuff about receiving some benefit from watching somebody else receive a sacrament is rejected. I can live with that.

Albion · Apr 20, 2019

Tree of Life said:
Believing recipients of baptism get assurance from God. When children who have been baptized grow up and put their faith in Christ, then they gain the assurance that "as surely as I have been baptized, so have I been grafted into Christ."

What do you suppose that baptized infants get from their baptism?

Grace, forgiveness of sin, membership in Christ church, and the promises of the sponsors to raise the child in the faith.

Tree of Life · Apr 20, 2019

Albion said:
Then the stuff about receiving some benefit from watching somebody else receive a sacrament is rejected. I can live with that.

In the case of the Lord's Supper we should receive it. But we benefit from watching the baptism of an infant in our congregation and remembering our own baptism. Otherwise, how would we ever benefit from our own baptism if we were baptized as infants?

Tree of Life · Apr 20, 2019

Albion said:
Grace, forgiveness of sin, membership in Christ church, and the promises of the sponsors to raise the child in the faith.

I agree with "grace" in a general sense but I believe that it is confirming grace which is conveyed. Although this cannot be conveyed to the child until the child believes. Could you be more specific about what you mean by "grace" here?

Formerly you had said that we do not gain salvation from the sacraments. But here you say that a baptized infant gets the forgiveness of sins. How is this different from the Roman view?

In the Reformed view, we do not believe that baptism makes an infant a member of Christ's church. Rather, we baptize infants because they are already members of Christ's church by virtue of being born into it.

Albion · Apr 20, 2019

Tree of Life said:
In the case of the Lord's Supper we should receive it. But we benefit from watching the baptism of an infant in our congregation and remembering our own baptism.

As I said before, if there is some "benefit," it is so much less and also different from that which the candidate is receiving in the sacrament that we should not try to equate the two. The alleged benefit from reflecting upon ones past experiences, etc. is a kind of benefit that might be obtained a hundred times a day from all sorts of events an that is possible whether or not there is anyone receiving any sacrament.

Otherwise, how would we ever benefit from our own baptism if we were baptized as infants?

See post #44.

Albion · Apr 20, 2019

Tree of Life said:
I agree with "grace" in a general sense but I believe that it is confirming grace which is conveyed. Although this cannot be conveyed to the child until the child believes. Could you be more specific about what you mean by "grace" here?

Blessings/spiritual strengthening from the Holy Spirit for daily living.

Formerly you had said that we do not gain salvation from the sacraments. But here you say that a baptized infant gets the forgiveness of sins. How is this different from the Roman view?

Its not much different. But salvation refers to the end result, unlike forgiveness or the assurance of forgiveness.

In the Reformed view, we do not believe that baptism makes an infant a member of Christ's church. Rather, we baptize infants because they are already members of Christ's church by virtue of being born into it.

How would you know they are?

Tree of Life · Apr 20, 2019

Albion said:
Blessings/spiritual strengthening from the Holy Spirit for daily living.

This is what I mean by "confirming" grace. If converting grace is the seeds of repentance and faith that are planted in us by regeneration, then confirming grace is the watering and nurturing of those same seeds.

Its not much different. But salvation refers to the end result, unlike forgiveness or the assurance of forgiveness.

Hah! This is why I did not have an Anglican view option because there is no Anglican view!

How would you know they are?

Baptized parents who are members in good standing.

Ecclesiastian · Apr 20, 2019

In regards to the discussion on the first page; Jonaitis raises a good point, that not all Baptists interpret Baptism as a mere symbol. And Baptist and Reformed isn't contradictory, either... There's a longstanding tradition of Reformed Baptists. Baptist theology cares more about the method of baptism than whether or not people view its results a certain way, and as such there are many Baptists on both ends of the baptismal regeneration spectrum.

Natsumi Lam · Apr 20, 2019

Albion said:
Well, the best answer that I get from Baptists is that we have an obligation to do it in order to show God that we obey him or believe in him (or something like that).

But if so, the use of the word benefits to describe what the newly-baptized person gets out of it would seem inappropriate.

I wonder why they feel they have to prove something to God if God already knows our heart...

Natsumi Lam · Apr 20, 2019

Tree of Life said:
Why does baptism only benefit the person being baptized and not the believing congregation who witnesses (and participates) in the sacrament?

I agree it benefits the believer and the congregation of a statement and accountability.

Natsumi Lam · Apr 20, 2019

Why would there be a need or tradition to baptise infants?

How is that beneficial in personal accountability or decision making?

Is it motivated by fear?

Albion · Apr 20, 2019

Natsumi Lam said:
Why would there be a need or tradition to baptise infants?

Why wouldn't an infant or elementary school child benefit from what baptism is believed to do for us? See my earlier post in which I answered a question about what it is that the historic churches believe the sacrament accomplishes.

aiki · Apr 20, 2019

Tree of Life said:
Baptist View - Baptism is mainly for the benefit of the baptized believer. It should only be applied to those who profess faith in Christ. The church witnesses baptism but only like those who are witnesses in a wedding ceremony. They may celebrate with the person being baptized, but the baptism is not about them. The person being baptized is publicly professing their faith in Christ and experiencing a kind of bench mark in their Christian faith.

This does not accurately represent the Baptist view of baptism.

DamianWarS · Apr 21, 2019

Tree of Life said:
Baptists, Reformed folks, Lutherans, Catholics and EOs all believe that baptism benefits somebody. But who does baptism benefit? For the sake of simplicity I'm going to collapse everything into the Baptist view, the Reformed view, and the Catholic view. EOs and Lutherans will have to forgive me, but you must admit that your view on baptism is very close to Rome, if not identical. Likewise Charismatics, anabaptists, and the like share the Baptist view.

Baptist View - Baptism is mainly for the benefit of the baptized believer. It should only be applied to those who profess faith in Christ. The church witnesses baptism but only like those who are witnesses in a wedding ceremony. They may celebrate with the person being baptized, but the baptism is not about them. The person being baptized is publicly professing their faith in Christ and experiencing a kind of bench mark in their Christian faith.

Catholic View - Baptism is for the benefit of the baptized person, whether they are adults or infants. This is because baptism regenerates the person being baptized, translating them from darkness to light, from death to life, from citizenship in the world to citizenship in heaven. In the ancient church sometimes baptism was not even celebrated in the presence of witnesses because the witnesses are welcome, but not necessary for the event.

Reformed View - Baptism is for the benefit of all believers. The Westminster Confession of faith says that a sacrament is a holy ordinance instituted by Christ, wherein, by sensible signs Christ and the benefits of the new covenant are represented, sealed, and applied to believers. Baptism only benefits believers, but every baptism that a believer witnesses is a benefit to them. Every time the believer sees a baptism, he is seeing a visual representation of the gospel and by faith he grasps Christ and the benefits of salvation. This is why it's essential that baptism is celebrated in public worship where all believers can benefit from it. The Reformed baptize children simply because we are commanded to do so. Adult believers benefit from seeing the baptism of children. The children themselves do not benefit from their baptism until they are old enough to believe the gospel (whenever that may be).

The Reformed view is the most difficult one to grasp, but I believe it is the most biblical and the correct view. I imagine, however, that it will be the minority view on these forums.

baptism implicitly benefits all believers regardless of what view you are coming from. how does this inform us of infant baptisms if the benefit is inclusive of all believers, does this not exclude all those who do not have the capacity to believe? (and I'm asking the reformed position)

StillGods · Apr 21, 2019

is there a verse that says the phrase 'means of grace'?

weird to need Baptism to assure you of your salvation...
i've noticed Reformed Christians are the only Christian's who have no clue if they're really saved or not so are desperately needing assurance they're saved. it's something missing or wrong in the Reformed doctrine that does this to them. quite sad really.

Maria Billingsley · Apr 21, 2019

Tree of Life said:
It's a good question and I believe it reveals some problems with the baptist view. It's also why many baptists and sons of baptists have gone on to reject baptism and the sacraments altogether. If they don't do anything, why do them?

There should be a fourth view: (maybe its reformed)
Benefit to the believer and to the believers that witness the baptism.
However....
Also to note there is no biblical reference or mandate to have a group witness a baptism it was more the group was being baptized one by one. The eunuch was baptized by Phillip with no "group" involved and Phillip did not hesitate

34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Blessings

royal priest · Apr 21, 2019

Jonaitis said:
They benefit the believer, and that after he has made a profession of repentance toward God, faith in and obedience to Jesus Christ.

Edit: I suppose I do see it benefiting the entire congregation as well.

The benefit to the congregation would be realized through baptism as a public initiation of a new believer, not only into the universal church, but especially as joining the formal membership of a local body.

Albion · Apr 21, 2019

The big point here is that the benefits in the case of the two different people or groups is that we may identify some sort of benefit coming to both of them but the benefits received are not at all equal.

Who Does Baptism Benefit?

Who Does Baptism Benefit?

The believer being baptized

The person being baptized (including infants)

All believers

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