Abortion...It is time to put an END to it!

SPF

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“The Bible is clear about the fact that murder is wrong (Exodus 20:13). However, in some cases, the Bible does not forbid killing. Soldiers representing their country were expected to kill soldiers on the opposing side (Joshua 11:20). That is not murder. Animals were killed for food and for sacrifice (Exodus 24:5; Genesis 9:3–4). That is not murder either.

Murder is defined as “the unlawful, premeditated killing of one human being by another.” Murder is unlawful killing—that is, killing that is done by the judgment of one human being against another, for personal (rather than national) reasons. The Bible condemns murder repeatedly as a characteristic of a wicked society (Deuteronomy 5:17; Isaiah 1:21; Hosea 4:2; Matthew 5:21). Determining whether or not abortion is murder involves two considerations: first, whether or not a fetus in utero is actually a human being, and, second, if a fetus is a child, whether or not abortion can be rightly called murder since it is legal in most countries. If murder is unlawful killing, it would follow that a lawful killing would not be murder.

One reason murder is outlawed in many places is that it is unethical for one person to unilaterally decide the fate of another. Under the Old Testament Law, a murderer was not put to death unless there were multiple witnesses: “No person shall be put to death on the testimony of one witness” (Numbers 35:30). In war, soldiers do not decide to kill for their own purposes; rather, they kill in the national interest—if they fight for an honorable nation, the national interest will be to protect innocent civilians from some threat. Abortion is different. Abortion is killing based on a mother’s unilateral judgment and choice. Such unprovoked killing of the defenseless is unethical and should define abortion as murder in any society—unless the fetus is not human. If the fetus is just a mass of impersonal tissue or something less than human, ending its life would not face the same ethical challenge and would not be considered murder.” From GotQuestions.org
 
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JackRT

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Abortion is different. Abortion is killing based on a mother’s unilateral judgment and choice. Such unprovoked killing of the defenseless is unethical and should define abortion as murder in any society—unless the fetus is not human. If the fetus is just a mass of impersonal tissue or something less than human, ending its life would not face the same ethical challenge and would not be considered murder.

It is obvious that both the female egg and the male sperm have a form of life but no one would call either a person. When they unite to form a zygote it certainly is alive. There is a potential person there and a great many people would claim that it actually is a person. Let us grant for a moment that the zygote is a person and let us call that person Mary. I choose a female name since all embryos are female until about the sixth or seventh week.

Now, we all know that a zygote develops into an embryo through the process of cell division. Every now and again the first cell division does not produce a two celled embryo but rather a second zygote --- identical twins. Did Mary suddenly become two persons? Was Mary two persons to begin with? Was Mary even a person to begin with? Let us set those questions aside for the moment and grant that the second zygote is also a person whom we shall call Margaret. It is entirely possible that one or both of these zygotes could divide again to result in triplets, quadruplets, quintuplets etc. The same question applies as to whether one person can became two, three or more persons. When does a person become a person?

These questions might be difficult enough but now it becomes even more complex. Sometimes two eggs are fertilized to form non-identical twins. Once again, let us call them Mary and Margaret. Rarely the two zygotes merge together again to form a two celled embryo. This is called a chimera. Who is this new embryo? Is it Mary or is it Margaret? This new embryo, this chimera, let us call it Mary, develops to term and is born. There is now no question at all that Mary is indeed a person. But here is the odd thing, some of the organs of Mary carry her genes but other organs carry the genes of her twin sister Margaret. So Margaret continues to exist within Mary or perhaps it is Mary within Margaret. Do we have two persons within a single body?

These very serious questions of person-hood arise only if we assume that the soul is infused at conception and that the brand new zygote is fully a person. Is there a more reasonable understanding? I believe there is. Personally I believe that the developing fetus becomes a person only when it is able to survive outside the womb. Sentience occurs at about the same point in the pregnancy very late in the second trimester. For this reason I am against abortion beyond the twentieth week except in very rare extreme circumstances.. Otherwise I believe that abortion should be legal, it should be safe, it should be available and it should be the woman’s informed choice but most important of all --- it should be rare. In conclusion, we should always keep in mind that there are no more powerful abortifacients in the world than poverty and ignorance.
 
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SPF

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Look, it’s Jack copy/pasting his typical response in every abortion thread. There should be something against this in the forum rules as this is easily the 12th time you’ve done this.

It is obvious that both the female egg and the male sperm have a form of life but no one would call either a person.
Personhood is a made up term. At fertilization we have a new human being coming into existence.

All human beings are created in the image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value.

At the very least, the 98% of abortions which are committed for convenience reasons are immoral.
 
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Archivist

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Look, it’s Jack copy/pasting his typical response in every abortion thread. There should be something against this in the forum rules as this is easily the 12th time you’ve done this
Your post 101 specifically says “From GotQuestions.org” without quotation marks attributing anything. Perhaps someone else is copying/pasting as well.
 
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SPF

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Your post 101 specifically says “From GotQuestions.org” without quotation marks attributing anything. Perhaps someone else is copying/pasting as well.
You’re cute Archivist, and also totally didn’t grasp what I was saying.
 
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Archivist

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You’re cute Archivist, and also totally didn’t grasp what I was saying.
Oh, I grasp what you’re saying. How much of Post 101 was your original thought? You’re the one complaining about another poster copying and pasting.
 
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SPF

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Oh, I grasp what you’re saying. How much of Post 101 was your original thought? You’re the one complaining about another poster copying and pasting.
Ok I’ll waste some time and help you understand what I was saying. RT doesn’t come into these conversations with a desire to engage in discussion and grow and learn and be open. He comes into these discussions and pastes the same thing over and over. It’s not new material, it’s not something he’s open to even discussing. He just pops in, pastes it, and leaves. His comments have been addressed over and over, yet he doesn’t care and continues to post them.

I have no problem with outside quotes, I use them regularly. I do have a problem with him coming into topics and giving misinformation and not being willing to engage and support what he says. It’s against the spirit of a forum where people should be willing to engage in conversation.

But anyway. Abortion is murder, and is immoral, and it’s even sadder to see Christians who support abortion. This should be one of the issues that transcend the branches of Christianity.
 
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JackRT

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I do have a problem with him coming into topics and giving misinformation and not being willing to engage and support what he says.

The post in question (#102) contains both information and opinion. I have done my research and so do not post misinformation because to do so would be to lie. You can easily do the research for yourself. The rest is opinion formed after much thought, Bible study, other reading, prayer and much more thought --- all over a period of several decades.

If you are willing to read it, here is one of the most impassioned pleas for pro-choice I have ever read:

Abortion is a topic that is constantly debated over. And I think it's ridiculous. A woman has rights over her body, and it is inapropriate for anyone to dictate what she must do. Right now, I've become so overwhelmingly infuriated by this violating debate that I have to write about it in full. For once in my life, i want to post my opinions somewhere whether it's read or discussed or not.

First of all, men have absolutely no right arguing this issue. This is a woman's issue and should be discussed by women only - to kill or not to kill a life growing inside my body is not an easy decision and since men don't know what it's like to FEEL that being existing within, they cannot understand the weight of such a decision. Men will argue that it's their baby too so they should have a voice, but NO! They will not carry that baby for 9 months. They will not experience weight gain, hormonal changes, irreversible body changes, the emotional rollercoaster, the sacrifice of habits and lifestyle, having to watch what you eat, watch what you drink, watch what you do or don't do, GO THROUGH LABOUR... there is so much involved in creating a healthy child and bringing it into this world that men simply can't relate and can't understand and therefore can't have a say in the matter. If your wife or girl friend doesn't want to go through all that, you can't make her because it's her body and she has the right to protect it and care for it as she sees fit.

The main argument I hear is about "God's miracle" and how we should not destroy his work. Considering you need to HAVE faith to buy this one, it is insulting and absurd that the state supports this view in a multicultural society like Canada. Not everyone believes in God, not everyone shares the same view of who or what God is, and not everyone views the same things as a miracle. It is NOT religion's place to dictate state public policy when such a decision will affect believers and non-believers alike. Even within faiths some people might feel pregnancy at a particular time in life to be more a punishment than a miracle - try convincing a woman broke and living in a dilapidated bachelor apartment in the worse part of town that having another mouth to feed is a miracle. Maybe a growing foetus is a miracle, maybe it's not - nobody has the right to legally force a woman to sacrifice herself over something she may or may not agree with.

Along with this "God's miracle" stance comes "the rights of the child" attitude. But I'd like to clarify something: the organism is dependent on the host for the first 26 weeks of development. Thus, the foetus should not be considered an independent individual until it can live and breathe independently outside the mother's womb. That's why generally doctors won't perform an abortion after the 24th-25th week of pregnancy - because after that there is the possibility the baby could survive separately from the mother. Also, the rights of an individual that doesn't even have a birth date or name should not override the rights of a fully functional citizen who has already existed and contributed to society for at least 12-13 years. The child hasn't even been born yet! How can you take away a human being's right to choose for something that can't even look you in the eye yet?

Finally, the less emphasized argument used in pro-lifers' defense is that you shouldn't have sex unless you're willing to accept responsibility for the consequences. Personally I agree with this one, but it's not our place to tell people when and with whom they can have sex! If people want to have sex, that's their prerogative. If the state wants to dictate what a person does after having sex, it might as well dictate when a person can have sex! But that would be ludicrous and nobody would let that pass, so why would people let anti-abortion legislature pass? If a woman has the right to choose to have sex she also has the right to decide whether to take what comes with it or not. And many people choose not to marry but remain common-law their whole lives - the state recognizes that adults may choose to live together (and sleep together) without tying the knot. So if a couple wants to have sex but doesn't want children, who are you to tell them they can't have sex because they don't want to be parents for the rest of their lives? Should we make tube-tying and vasectomies illegal too because they are depriving us of "God's miracles"? Should contraception become illegal? Where do we draw the line to force "God's miracle" and nature to take its course? People should have sex responsibly, absolutely, but nobody should have the right to decide what a couple should do if accidents happen and unexpected reproduction takes place.

Now, pro-lifers want to promote life and dictate what a woman does with her body and the organism inside it. But have they given ANY thought to WHY a woman may abort, or what would happen to those thousands of unwanted children? Once the baby is forcedly born, what happens to it? Can ANY pro-lifer guarantee she will be a good mother? That the baby will grow up in a safe and positive environment? That the child will not suffer emotional abuse for "screwing up" mom's life or being "an accident" rather than "God's miracle"? That the child will have everything it needs to grow up healthy and taken care of? NO! Pro-lifers want to force women to have babies without considering the consequences of THAT choice! Having a baby doesn't end when she gives birth. Having a baby and giving life means taking care of that life! Women who want to cancel a pregnancy do it because they don't want to be mothers or because they know they can't be the mother they want to be at the time. Some do it for health reasons. Others do it because it's a result of rape or one night's terrible mistake. Some cancel it because they realize they'd be alone and the father would run and they can't do it alone. Some do it because they just didn't want more children than they already have! There are so many personal reasons for a woman to end a pregnancy, and pro-lifers' seem to forget the weight of the decision, assuming it's an easy one to make. There are risks to abortion and there is a lot of emotional damage that takes place - women are rarely happy to do it, but they do what they gotta do for themselves and for their unwanted child. How can pro-lifers advocate for something without considering the consequences of the decision they do support? They would be putting thousands of children in harm's way, but aparently that's okay so long as the child can live to suffer.

If pro-lifers win and women are forced to have babies, can you imagine the kind of problems society would experience? The adoption agencies would clog up even more. CAS would collapse under the weight of all the abused and neglected children, victims of unwanted pregnancies gone through. Child poverty - already at 3 million children plus in Canada - would inflate dramatically as the economy would suffer severely from all the families requiring welfare because they couldn't afford the baby but were forced to have it anyways. The labour force would suffer from all the women who must sacrifice career and education because they have to have their baby, and it would cost a lot in lost dollars for all that maternity leave and stay-at-home status because there's not enough daycare to go around. And above all it would be a terrible slap in the face to all the progress we have made in promoting the rights of women as independent and entitled to equality and equity in our system because forcing a woman to be a mother is as bad as forcing her to be a stay-at-home wife - she is being forced to do something solely because of her expected role in society.

There's a reason anti-abortion legislation hasn't passed: it is economically, socially and morally a bad idea. You can't force a woman to have a baby, just like you can't force a teenager not to have sex. You can educate and you can offer alternative solutions and precautionary measures, but you cannot force a person to do something to their body they don't want to. It's moral rape to impose a life on a person who doesn't want to or can't care for it! It's not about letting women kill their babies, it's about letting a woman choose how she wants to live her life. She has rights and she's earned them - who are you to tell her her unborn child's life is more valuable than her own?


--- posted by “footprints 165” in WonderCafe
 
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SPF

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I read it, and I get it. But as someone who knows the Truth as revealed by God, I have to disagree with her. But as she is someone who clearly doesn’t have a relationship with God and doesn’t understand the value of human life, I am not surprised by her position.

Like most people who are pro-choice, she doesn’t acknowledge the unborn child in her as possessing the same moral worth and value as her. Her words demean and strip value away from the unborn. She discriminated against the unborn human because it is not as developed as her, because it is dependent upon her (infants are equally dependent), etc...

So of course she is going to be OK with abortion. But she’s wrong. As Christians, we have the benefit that the lost world doesn’t have in that we have a personal relationship with Christ, with God Himself. The Holy Spirit reveals God’s absolute and objective Truths to us.

Thus, as a Christian who actually understands and knows that all human beings are created in the image of God and equally possess inherent moral worth and value - I am able to recognize that the 98% of abortions which are committed for convenience reasons are in fact, murder. Therefore, if I desire to possess any sort of intellectual and spiritual integrity, I can never support abortion.
 
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3Esp6

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A mother has a right to do with her body as she will, a right given to her by God.

God knew women would try to abort their unwanted babies, and He doesn't like His gift of life being taken away by a woman or a man, but he allows women the free will to do this.

Problem is, as a society we allow "our eyes to pervert justice" by deciding that we need to save mothers' lives over babies lives, because of the few women who would die from coathangers, etc. So expansive numbers of women are allowed and supported to sin, pulling more people into sin (doctors, nurse practitioners, and fathers) because evil loves company. Causing others to sin is a terrible thing.

If women had to abort their own babies, they would not be very successful overall, and the life God created would be more protected.

I agree that we should follow God's Law, not man-made law when it comes to these sociological matters. And definitely should not fund such folly.

Thou shalt not murder is pretty clear.
Holocaust - 12 million Jews in 4 years, dead
Abortion - 3 million not yet living fetuses in four years AT THE VERY MOST aborted

How dare you make that comparison.
 
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3Esp6

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Fetuses are very much living human beings.
My point, irrelevant to our disagreement in the other discussion over when a fertilized egg become a new human, is that it is completely inappropriate to compare abortion to the holocaust. It’s not fair to people who have abortions done, and it’s not fair to victims of the holocaust.
 
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JackRT

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Human beings are created in the image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value.

And we are living human beings from fertilization.

"The law does not provide that the act of abortion pertains to homicide, for there cannot yet be said to be a live soul in a body that lacks sensation..."--St Augustine

"The intellective soul i.e., true person is created by God at the completion of man's coming into being." -- St Thomas Aquinas

"Many modern philosophers and theologians return to St. Thomas' view."-- Fr Joseph F. Donceel, S.J.

"To admit that the human fetus receives the intellectual soul from the moment of its conception, when matter is in no way ready for it, sounds to me like a philosophical absurdity. It is as absurd as to call a fertilized ovum a baby." --Jacques Maritain

"Many people believe that the Roman Catholic Church's opposition to abortion stems from its conviction that a new human person exists from the first moment of conception...It is clear that this is not now, or has ever been, official church teaching on the matter."--James T. McCartney

"In the rabbinic tradition...abortion remains a non-capital crime at worst."--Rabbi David Feldman


The Scriptures are silent in defining when one becomes a person.
 
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SPF

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"The law does not provide that the act of abortion pertains to homicide, for there cannot yet be said to be a live soul in a body that lacks sensation..."--St Augustine
We can excuse his ignorance as science hadn’t advanced to provide us the knowledge we now have concerning early human development.

"The intellective soul i.e., true person is created by God at the completion of man's coming into being." -- St Thomas Aquinas
Which we now know to be at fertilization.

The Scriptures are silent in defining when one becomes a person.
Scripture is silent because the distinction between a human being and a human person is subjective, arbitrary, and made up. Human beings possess inherent moral worth and value. Scripture never says anywhere that a human being has to develop to level X before they are made in the image of God.
 
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JackRT

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We can excuse his ignorance as science hadn’t advanced to provide us the knowledge we now have concerning early human development.

Has science developed attest for the soul? We don't even have evidence that there is such a thing as soul.

Which we now know to be at fertilization.

How do we know that?

Scripture is silent because the distinction between a human being and a human person is subjective, arbitrary, and made up. Human beings possess inherent moral worth and value. Scripture never says anywhere that a human being has to develop to level X before they are made in the image of God.

All the more reason scripture should be more explicit. Abortion is only referenced twice in scripture and in neither case is it condemned.
 
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SPF

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How do we know that?
Do I need to post all the scientific references I’ve done a thousand times for you again?

All the more reason scripture should be more explicit. Abortion is only referenced twice in scripture and in neither case is it condemned.
We’ve addresses your poor hermeneutics in the past, Scripture treats all human beings as possessing inherent moral worth and value.

Scripture is explicit in that all human beings are created in the image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value.

We don't even have evidence that there is such a thing as soul.
Well as a Christian surely you trust Scripture and believe you have a soul.
 
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Archivist

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Do I need to post all the scientific references I’ve done a thousand times for you again?
It appears that you have only posted around 1800 times on CF. I don’t believe that 1000 of those posts contained scientific references.
 
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SPF

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It appears that you have only posted around 1800 times on CF. I don’t believe that 1000 of those posts contained scientific references.
Thank you SPF Troll for that valuable contribution. I’m sorry that hyperbole is something lost on you.
 
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