Are bad things that happen to us part of "God's plan"?

~Anastasia~ said:

Your post is not so distinct from what we would say.

Certainly, God uses ALL things, even what happens to us as a result of our faults, or as the result of our own sinfulness or the sins of others, to bring us into the likeness of Christ for our salvation - if we cooperate with Him. We can of course respond wrongly to any situation.

God knows our path, certainly, He knows all things from before time. He does not however choose our sins and force us to do so, if that's what you meant. Maybe you didn't.

As far as glory - God IS glorious. Nothing we can do or not do takes away or adds to that. I'm always a little confused by an extreme position (not what you are saying but others I have heard) that goes so far as to say God intends evil or creates people in order to condemn them - for the sole purpose of somehow increasing or demonstrating or shoring up His own glory. I can't see how anyone can think that is glorious, but more importantly - God doesn't need any such thing to add to Himself, doesn't need to "prove" anything. When we see Him as He is, we will have no doubt of His glory.

But most importantly, yes, He does use all things - even bad things - for good out of love if we allow it. I've always thought the selling of Joseph into slavery, leading to the saving of the house of Jacob from famine, to be a good example. (Of course that led to slavery, which then led to Moses bringing Israel to the Promised Land, and so on ... )

Click to expand...

I agree, we cannot add or take away anything from his essential glory, because he is glorious in and of himself. Many think that when we are called to give him glory or that we were created for his glory that we are giving him something that he needs, but this not what we mean. God doesn't need heaven's host to hymn his praises, neither does he need the earth to engage his attention. He is essentially glorious for who he is, not what the creature renders to him. "Who is like unto thee, O Lord, among the gods? Who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?" (Exod. 15:11). Whatever glory we "give" or "render" to him is more of ourselves acknowledging and declaring what is already true about him. Among the works of creation we were created, in our own peculiar design, to manifest some profound truth about this awesome Divine being. We could never augment or diminish anything essential to himself.

While I do agree that God is not the author of sin, I affirm that he does in fact predestine some individuals to eternal life and others to eternal punishment according to his own holy and eternal plan. It is a misunderstanding as to what is meant by this statement. Many people think that we are saying God takes pleasure in punishing people - so he creates some individuals for that purpose, or that he needs to prove something about his justice. While God doesn't need to prove anything to anyone about anything, and nothing makes him glorious, he does in fact decree all things for the demonstration of his glory. Yes, some are for the demonstration of his glorious justice and others are for the demonstration of his glorious mercy, but it is not as you think.

"Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" - Romans 9:21-24

It is a beautiful truth I wish more understood better.

Jonaitis said:

I agree, we cannot add or take away anything from his essential glory, because he is glorious in and of himself. Many think that when we are called to give him glory or that we were created for his glory that we are giving him something that he needs, but this not what we mean. God doesn't need heaven's host to hymn his praises, neither does he need the earth to engage his attention. He is essentially glorious for who he is, not what the creature renders to him. "Who is like unto thee, O Lord, among the gods? Who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?" (Exod. 15:11). Whatever glory we "give" or "render" to him is more of ourselves acknowledging and declaring what is already true about him. Among the works of creation we were created, in our own peculiar design, to manifest some profound truth about this awesome Divine being. We could never augment or diminish anything essential to himself.

Click to expand...

I think we can essentially agree to all the foregoing. In our prayers and services, we repeat the phrase "Glory to the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit" more times than I can count, every day. But of course we know we acknowledge, not that we are adding anything to God.

While I do agree that God is not the author of sin, I affirm that he does in fact predestine some individuals to eternal life and others to eternal punishment according to his own holy and eternal plan. It is a misunderstanding as to what is meant by this statement. Many people think that we are saying God takes pleasure in punishing people - so he creates some individuals for that purpose, or that he needs to prove something about his justice. While God doesn't need to prove anything to anyone about anything, and nothing makes him glorious, he does in fact decree all things for the demonstration of his glory. Yes, some are for the demonstration of his glorious justice and others are for the demonstration of his glorious mercy, but it is not as you think.

"Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" - Romans 9:21-24

It is a beautiful truth I wish more understood better.

Click to expand...

Some aspects here we will not and cannot agree on. And I fear you may get strong opposition - there is probably a limit to how far we can discuss this even in St. Justin's. And many Orthodox would frankly consider the idea that God created some human beings without any possible opportunity to be saved, but destined to be condemned before their very creation, to frankly be a rather blasphemous way to look at God. Who is after all a good and loving God, who created man in His very image, and desires that all would repent and be saved/healed.

God of course knows the end from the beginning. He knows if and who will reject Him. He still desires their salvation though, and gives them every opportunity and works things on their behalf. Just because He knows someone won't cooperate, doesn't mean He makes it happen. And yes, I'm aware of various verses pulled out that seem to imply that. But the whole of Scripture must be taken in context, and through the knowledge of God given us. Forgive me, I'm not looking to argue. But it is not something we would agree on, if I'm understanding you correctly.

~Anastasia~ said:

Some aspects here we will not and cannot agree on. And I fear you may get strong opposition - there is probably a limit to how far we can discuss this even in St. Justin's. And many Orthodox would frankly consider the idea that God created some human beings without any possible opportunity to be saved, but destined to be condemned before their very creation, to frankly be a rather blasphemous way to look at God. Who is after all a good and loving God, who created man in His very image, and desires that all would repent and be saved/healed.

God of course knows the end from the beginning. He knows if and who will reject Him. He still desires their salvation though, and gives them every opportunity and works things on their behalf. Just because He knows someone won't cooperate, doesn't mean He makes it happen. And yes, I'm aware of various verses pulled out that seem to imply that. But the whole of Scripture must be taken in context, and through the knowledge of God given us. Forgive me, I'm not looking to argue. But it is not something we would agree on, if I'm understanding you correctly.

Click to expand...

You're right, I want to be careful how I discuss on this debate forum since I would be teaching something contrary to the Orthodox position.

It isn't that we say that God created some human beings without any opportunity to be saved, that would be erroneous (if not heretical). Rather, what we mean is that God isn't actively involved in bringing some individuals to himself, even though the opportunity is there for them to turn to him. In understanding the natural depravity of man as an effect from the fall, we see that no one willingly desires or choose God.

"The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one." - Psalm 14:2-3

If you openly presented the gospel and all the things spoken by God concerning his salvation, men naturally will reject it and defiantly oppose it. We are this way by nature, it isn't God's fault, but is the result of the first fall of our parents. Cain is an example of how early we see such corrupt take root, and Israel's constant idolatry and backsliding is an example as well. We need more than a handout of his grace, we need him to change our disposition to behold him as he is and want him as he is. In the Orthodox faith, grace is seen as something you must cooperate with. We see grace as something effectually operating in us, by God, for our good. We see that we could never have come to understand Christ, nor see our need for him, unless God himself opened our eyes and drew us to himself.

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." - John 6:44

So this is how we understand the predestination of the elect and the reprobate. God is actively involved in bringing his elect to faith and repentance, enjoying the fruit of his salvation; he makes them aware of their need, he changes the direction of their will, and makes them desire to be believers. Whereas, God leaves the rest to continue living their whole lives without that change. He isn't unjust to do this, because he is not obligated to work in anyone's heart. He commands men to turn and believe in Christ, and all men have the responsibility and power of the will to make choices, but unless there is a change in that person's heart he will willingly reject that opportunity to the day he dies and will even in hellfire "weep and gnash their teeth" at God.

I hope this was appropriately said without breaking the rules of the forum. I don't desire to argue either, I am just showing you where I stand on the issue.

I will remain off this thread.

Jonaitis said:

You're right, I want to be careful how I discuss on this debate forum since I would be teaching something contrary to the Orthodox position.

It isn't that we say that God created some human beings without any opportunity to be saved, that would be erroneous (if not heretical). Rather, what we mean is that God isn't actively involved in bringing some individuals to himself, even though the opportunity is there for them to turn to him. In understanding the natural depravity of man as an effect from the fall, we see that no one willingly desires or choose God.

"The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one." - Psalm 14:2-3

If you openly presented the gospel and all the things spoken by God concerning his salvation, men naturally will reject it and defiantly oppose it. We are this way by nature, it isn't God's fault, but is the result of the first fall of our parents. Cain is an example of how early we see such corrupt take root, and Israel's constant idolatry and backsliding is an example as well. We need more than a handout of his grace, we need him to change our disposition to behold him as he is and want him as he is. In the Orthodox faith, grace is seen as something you must cooperate with. We see grace as something effectually operating in us, by God, for our good. We see that we could never have come to understand Christ, nor see our need for him, unless God himself opened our eyes and drew us to himself.

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." - John 6:44

So this is how we understand the predestination of the elect and the reprobate. God is actively involved in bringing his elect to faith and repentance, enjoying the fruit of his salvation; he makes them aware of their need, he changes the direction of their will, and makes them desire to be believers. Whereas, God leaves the rest to continue living their whole lives without that change. He isn't unjust to do this, because he is not obligated to work in anyone's heart. He commands men to turn and believe in Christ, and all men have the responsibility and power of the will to make choices, but unless there is a change in that person's heart he will willingly reject that opportunity to the day he dies and will even in hellfire "weep and gnash their teeth" at God.

I hope this was appropriately said without breaking the rules of the forum. I don't desire to argue either, I am just showing you where I stand on the issue.

Click to expand...

I understand your caution, and perhaps it's not fair to ask you to continue here. If you choose not to reply (at least not here), I don't blame you. Unfortunately general theology would probably degrade, and there won't be many who are likely to provide more info than I can do. Traditional Theology might work, as it is a non-debate forum and the expectation is that everyone be respectful.

But I'll offer a reply, as best I can. This is not something I study out in great detail.



Given your premise, I can see for one thing that you might reject the idea of God drawing all men, since some do not respond. The logical conclusion is that God's efforts are ineffectual in that case, which must surely seem problematic.

I'm hoping someone who knows our response to that more particularly can answer too.

By the way, God's grace is not a "thing" to us, but the very Energies of God Himself.

We also don't teach total depravity, but we do understand that all people are born already affected by sin, with a tendency to go their own selfish ways. And the world itself is fallen and infected with sin. On our own we don't have a chance.

But we wouldn't say God simply ignores and fails to offer what is necessary for salvation to anyone. It's true that He is not obligated by anything outside Himself to do anything for us. But His love, His mercy ... those aspects of Who He is mean that the offer and everything necessary is available to everyone (and remember Scripture tells us such things as that He takes no pleasure in the death of a sinner, that He desires all men to repent and be saved).

(Obviously we don't teach limited atonement.)

It strikes me too that the Justice of God too can only be satisfied by giving all an opportunity, and in the end they can have no excuse. If God simply allowed men to be born with no hope of being able to turn to Him and refused to help them in any way, they could still say either that He is unjust, or else He would be a respecter of persons (worse yet not even based on anything we had actually done, if it was decided before we were born).

I think what you said about all men having the "power of will" without God's help might be key in understanding where each of us is coming from.

Unfortunately, I'd really like to see this discussion between someone representing the Orthodox perspective who knows all of this better than I do. I may make mistakes and I'm probably not the best person to clearly evaluate your perspective and compare.

I'm always interested in such discussions, because when the nuances are all laid out, sometimes we find areas we agree on but hadn't realized, just because we explain things differently or draw different lines separating word meanings or something. I am fairly certain we could not truly agree, but I also suspect there are aspects in there where we do, or at least areas to build on in any discussion we might want to have. If nothing else we could begin by clearly understanding one another. (And I mean "we" generally - our two different points of view.)

I appreciate your willingness to explain so far, and your civility.

David Cabrera said:

I don't get it? Do we have new rules here that limit non-Orthodox participation?

Click to expand...

Sorry no, the rules have not changed.

This is a place to DEBATE Orthodox Christians. But one may not teach against Orthodox teaching. It becomes a very fine line, and I wouldn't ask anyone to answer me in a way that could get them in trouble.

We do tend as members to be very lenient here for the sake of discussion, usually only some get upset when the poster clearly has no intent to discuss but is merely beating us over the head with his own ideaologies.

But ... anyone (including non-Orthodox) can report, or staff could happen to notice without a report. And you see it's a fine line. If staff don't know the Orthodox teaching it can become even murkier.

So if someone is cautious, I don't blame them, and won't ask them to violate their concern.

I wish it could all be perfect, but like anything where humans are involved, it won't ever quite reach that level.

Sorry if I created any confusion. And sorry I'm just not trying to catch up. Holy Week.

Jonaitis said:

I agree, we cannot add or take away anything from his essential glory, because he is glorious in and of himself. Many think that when we are called to give him glory or that we were created for his glory that we are giving him something that he needs, but this not what we mean. God doesn't need heaven's host to hymn his praises, neither does he need the earth to engage his attention. He is essentially glorious for who he is, not what the creature renders to him. "Who is like unto thee, O Lord, among the gods? Who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?" (Exod. 15:11). Whatever glory we "give" or "render" to him is more of ourselves acknowledging and declaring what is already true about him. Among the works of creation we were created, in our own peculiar design, to manifest some profound truth about this awesome Divine being. We could never augment or diminish anything essential to himself.

While I do agree that God is not the author of sin, I affirm that he does in fact predestine some individuals to eternal life and others to eternal punishment according to his own holy and eternal plan. It is a misunderstanding as to what is meant by this statement. Many people think that we are saying God takes pleasure in punishing people - so he creates some individuals for that purpose, or that he needs to prove something about his justice. While God doesn't need to prove anything to anyone about anything, and nothing makes him glorious, he does in fact decree all things for the demonstration of his glory. Yes, some are for the demonstration of his glorious justice and others are for the demonstration of his glorious mercy, but it is not as you think.

"Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" - Romans 9:21-24

It is a beautiful truth I wish more understood better.

Click to expand...

Reading through Romans 9-11 puts that in a bit more context. The unbelieving Jews are as the "vessels fitted to destruction", whose rejection of Christ opened the door for the salvation of the "vessels of mercy"...that is, the Gentiles. However, the overall point is that through the Gentiles gaining this position of honor, those branches which were cut off - the Jews - will eventually be "grafted back in" alongside the Gentiles, spurred to humility as it were, via means of jealousy for having lost their position as favored ones of God...not that they will remain cut off forever, but that through their stumbling, all will be saved. Or rather, salvation will be open to all.

.

When Jesus came into my life he would soon take me down. Down to rock bottom.

I believe it is so that I never made the same mistakes when it was game time. Meaning, I wasn't really the only person I had to look out for.

Also, it would make me cling to him.

I don't hate where he took me. I know it was for a purpose.

This kind of question reminds me of a Russian proverb I once heard (years ago, in Russian, so I may not be getting the English translation exactly right, but hopefully will capture the spirit of it): A man is drowning in the ocean, and he calls out to God, "God! Please help me! I am drowning! Come to my aid and save me!" God heard his pleas and answered Him: "You start swimming, and I will do the rest."

I wouldn't for a second pretend that this is Eastern Orthodox teaching (after all, I'm not EO, and just because Russian says it or it's said in Russian doesn't necessarily mean anything), but I do think it encapsulates very well something of the perspective that probably fits in well with Eastern Orthodox thinking (or so I'd guess): Yes, sometimes bad things do happen, but "God's plan" as it may be realized through them is a plan for us, that we may learn and grow as He wishes us all to do (in love for Him, in reliance upon Him, or in this case, in what I believe the EO would call synergia with Him). Is there an easier way to teach someone to swim than to throw them into the ocean? Certainly, but no doubt there are probably more than a few people who learned exactly when they needed to who otherwise might not have learned. (I know several people whose parents threw them into the deep end of the pool as children for exactly that reason...I can't imagine what would happen if parents still did/do that now, but this was a different era.)

Point being, whether the experience is good, bad, or neutral, we must cooperate with God and trust in Him at all times. The bad times test our resolve and put us on our mettle, but the hardest of metals are forged in fire, so we must go through the fire to come out stronger and stronger. There is also the saying from the desert father (Abba Joseph? Abba Pantelewon? I can't remember) that if you will it, you can become all flame. Often our challenges and struggles are calls to do more, to go beyond whatever wall we face (whatever the 'bad thing' is), and destroy it by prayer, fasting, and the other pratices which guided our common fathers for centuries in ascetic combat, and led all of the saints to glorious victory in the taking on of Christ, our ultimate model of how to take on 'bad things', in His death-destroying passionless passion which He suffered for us of His own will on the glorious wood of the life-giving cross.

Looked at from that perspective -- from the cross -- what is even a 'bad thing'? Death is conquered forever, so what do we have to fear? And let us not forget in our struggles the effective and powerful intercessions of the all-holy, ever-virgin Theotokos and of all the saints. They too are "part of God's plan", right?

When you really look at it, there is nothing so bad that we cannot vanquish through Christ, so maybe the question should be "Are bad things not our opportunities to show forth the power and glory of Christ?"

And yes. Yes they are. Believe me, my friends, To put it in a personal perspective (sorry in advance if this is 'oversharing', but this is something I have spent a lot of time thinking about, so I have something to say; feel free to stop reading here if you don't want to read a lot of rambling), I am and have always been physically disabled and as a result am in a great deal of physical pain every single day (not to illicit sympathy, please, but to show that I know a 'bad thing' when I feel it, as I'm sure you all do; mine is just more immediately visible to the outside world), and I was once talking a Coptic friend -- a fellow layperson -- at the beginning of my journey to the Oriental Orthodox faith, and she said something that stunned and almost angered me. When I mentioned that I am physical disabled (because this was all through the internet when I was living in a place with no OO churches but interested in their faith, and I wanted to know if they would accept a person with a physical disability in their churches), she became almost excited and said something like "You are blessed! People who are in your condition seem to be closer to God." I wanted to say "Well this is a strange way to bless someone; I'd rather not be so 'blessed' and work towards coming to God in some other way", but then she continued, saying that it is those who suffer the most who correspondingly must rely on God the most, and of course to rely solely on God is what we are all striving for to begin with. I'm not in a position to say whether or not that is true (it would seem like sinful pride to me to agree with that, and besides I'm just one disabled person; we're not all the same...many seem angry at God for 'making them this way'), but hearing her reasoning calmed me down anyway...like, yes, this is my particular cross, and if I want to I can whine and cry about it and complain against God like the Israelites in the desert ('cause that ended well...), or I can say "Look at what opportunities it provides me that I may not otherwise have", as my Coptic friend did.

Long story short, of course now I believe that this is part of God's plan, as it always has been. It was my perspective that needed adjusting, while the actual situation will either be good, bad, neutral, etc., depending on the day. But again, in all things we must rely on the Lord. So however you get there is how He gets you there. You can fight Him all you want, but He's still the Pantocrator, so it is better to be transformed by the renewing of your mind to whatever degree you can be (nobody is ever 'done' spiritually growing, right, since Theosis is forever) than to not pick up your cross, when precisely that is the duty of every Christian no matter their lot in life.

In context, I am posting my 2 cents back to the OP. The thread has progressed & my attention span is short with all due respect to others here.

Anyway, I believe what the Lord says in John 16:33 sums up our struggle in this world. I believe science has traditionally explained much of our fallen state ( as opposed to what science is being redefined like in gender declassification etc.). God has not let creation run on autopilot nor is He micromanaging it with punishments yet few “miracles”.

I believe God is sustaining something in which do die but will live thanks be to the birth, life, death, resurrection, & ascension of our Lord. He covered life overall but did not micromanage it. Thanks be to our Lord.

Amen, Lukaris. We are, in our fallen state, destined to die, but the details of life and particular circumstances are variable. What is not variable is the salvation offered in the incarnation, birth, life, death, and resurrection of our Lord, God, and Savior, Jesus Christ, Who conquered death so that in Him we may have eternal life, in a state free from whatever plagued us in this life.

dzheremi said:

This kind of question reminds me of a Russian proverb I once heard (years ago, in Russian, so I may not be getting the English translation exactly right, but hopefully will capture the spirit of it): A man is drowning in the ocean, and he calls out to God, "God! Please help me! I am drowning! Come to my aid and save me!" God heard his pleas and answered Him: "You start swimming, and I will do the rest."

I wouldn't for a second pretend that this is Eastern Orthodox teaching (after all, I'm not EO, and just because Russian says it or it's said in Russian doesn't necessarily mean anything), but I do think it encapsulates very well something of the perspective that probably fits in well with Eastern Orthodox thinking (or so I'd guess): Yes, sometimes bad things do happen, but "God's plan" as it may be realized through them is a plan for us, that we may learn and grow as He wishes us all to do (in love for Him, in reliance upon Him, or in this case, in what I believe the EO would call synergia with Him). Is there an easier way to teach someone to swim than to throw them into the ocean? Certainly, but no doubt there are probably more than a few people who learned exactly when they needed to who otherwise might not have learned. (I know several people whose parents threw them into the deep end of the pool as children for exactly that reason...I can't imagine what would happen if parents still did/do that now, but this was a different era.)

Point being, whether the experience is good, bad, or neutral, we must cooperate with God and trust in Him at all times. The bad times test our resolve and put us on our mettle, but the hardest of metals are forged in fire, so we must go through the fire to come out stronger and stronger. There is also the saying from the desert father (Abba Joseph? Abba Pantelewon? I can't remember) that if you will it, you can become all flame. Often our challenges and struggles are calls to do more, to go beyond whatever wall we face (whatever the 'bad thing' is), and destroy it by prayer, fasting, and the other pratices which guided our common fathers for centuries in ascetic combat, and led all of the saints to glorious victory in the taking on of Christ, our ultimate model of how to take on 'bad things', in His death-destroying passionless passion which He suffered for us of His own will on the glorious wood of the life-giving cross.

Looked at from that perspective -- from the cross -- what is even a 'bad thing'? Death is conquered forever, so what do we have to fear? And let us not forget in our struggles the effective and powerful intercessions of the all-holy, ever-virgin Theotokos and of all the saints. They too are "part of God's plan", right?

When you really look at it, there is nothing so bad that we cannot vanquish through Christ, so maybe the question should be "Are bad things not our opportunities to show forth the power and glory of Christ?"

And yes. Yes they are. Believe me, my friends, To put it in a personal perspective (sorry in advance if this is 'oversharing', but this is something I have spent a lot of time thinking about, so I have something to say; feel free to stop reading here if you don't want to read a lot of rambling), I am and have always been physically disabled and as a result am in a great deal of physical pain every single day (not to illicit sympathy, please, but to show that I know a 'bad thing' when I feel it, as I'm sure you all do; mine is just more immediately visible to the outside world), and I was once talking a Coptic friend -- a fellow layperson -- at the beginning of my journey to the Oriental Orthodox faith, and she said something that stunned and almost angered me. When I mentioned that I am physical disabled (because this was all through the internet when I was living in a place with no OO churches but interested in their faith, and I wanted to know if they would accept a person with a physical disability in their churches), she became almost excited and said something like "You are blessed! People who are in your condition seem to be closer to God." I wanted to say "Well this is a strange way to bless someone; I'd rather not be so 'blessed' and work towards coming to God in some other way", but then she continued, saying that it is those who suffer the most who correspondingly must rely on God the most, and of course to rely solely on God is what we are all striving for to begin with. I'm not in a position to say whether or not that is true (it would seem like sinful pride to me to agree with that, and besides I'm just one disabled person; we're not all the same...many seem angry at God for 'making them this way'), but hearing her reasoning calmed me down anyway...like, yes, this is my particular cross, and if I want to I can whine and cry about it and complain against God like the Israelites in the desert ('cause that ended well...), or I can say "Look at what opportunities it provides me that I may not otherwise have", as my Coptic friend did.

Long story short, of course now I believe that this is part of God's plan, as it always has been. It was my perspective that needed adjusting, while the actual situation will either be good, bad, neutral, etc., depending on the day. But again, in all things we must rely on the Lord. So however you get there is how He gets you there. You can fight Him all you want, but He's still the Pantocrator, so it is better to be transformed by the renewing of your mind to whatever degree you can be (nobody is ever 'done' spiritually growing, right, since Theosis is forever) than to not pick up your cross, when precisely that is the duty of every Christian no matter their lot in life.

Click to expand...

That was a beautiful post. Thank you.