Destroying the Disastrous Doctrine of Cessationism

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Dave L

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I have never been to Pentecostal church so I wonder how that came about. It must have been through the Holy Spirit.
You don't live in a vacuum. Wanting more of a buzz out of religion drives many this way.
 
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Dave L

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Dave L

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I know this from experience. Believe it or not, I really do understand where you're coming from. If we were having this discussion prior to 2011, I would be on your side telling the others that they don't know what they're talking about. Our spirits have been re-born. We are still waiting for our souls and body to be redeemed. When that happens, we will be perfect and will no longer have the need for gifts. God will not love you any less if you don't and will not love you any more if you do.
Speaking in Tongues: Glossalalia and Stress Reduction
 
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Natsumi Lam

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1stcenturylady

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So starting after 400 a.d., these leaders simply declared that the gifts had ceased … using
1 Corinthians 13:10 as an excuse!

Can you supply any quotes of church fathers after 400 A.D. that believed they ceased using 1 Corinthians 13? I wasn't aware. Thanks.
 
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Ken C.

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PoppyB

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You don't live in a vacuum. Wanting more of a buzz out of religion drives many this way.

"When the Spirit of the Lord moves within my heart I will dance as David danced" etc.

Belonging to God should not be boring we should expect a 'buzz' provided it isn't man-made. We should enjoy worship, we should enjoy being in his presence. We should enjoy Him and let our hair down. Too many Christians are afraid to do that for fear of looking ridiculous.

Wearing a linen ephod, David was dancing before the Lord with all his might, while he and all Israel were bringing up the ark of the Lord with shouts and the sound of trumpets. As the ark of the Lord was entering the City of David, Michal daughter of Saul watched from a window. And when she saw King David leaping and dancing before the Lord, she despised him in her heart. 2 Samuel 6:14-16

I expect David was experiencing a great 'buzz' as he danced before the Lord with all his might but there are too many like Michal in the churches who don't like any show of exuberant worship. I'm glad I'm not one of them. I love to sing and dance as I worship God and I learned that it was ok to do so when I belonged to the Church of England with an enlightened born again, Spirit filled vicar.

Have you ever read, 'When the Spirit Comes' by Colin Urquhart? If not I recommend it.
 
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Bruce Leiter

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First of all, cessationism is a dying doctrine because almost ALL of the old denominations have abandoned it. The following passage was used as an excuse for starting it …

“But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.” (1 Corinthians 13:8-10)

PROBLEM:
Since “that which is perfect” is NOT specified, any interpretation of it must be an assumption.


At some point, the church claimed the “perfect” meant the completion of the Canon of Scripture.

PROBLEM:
Did knowledge also pass away?

PROBLEM:
The early church fathers witnessed the gifts of the Spirit (ref: Wikipedia) …
Justin Martyr (d.165) -- “For the prophetical gifts remain with us, even to the present time.”
Irenaeus (d.202) -- “In like manner do we also hear many brethren in the church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light, for the general benefit, the hidden things of men and declare the mysteries of God, who also the apostles term spiritual”
Origen (d.253) -- “He (Origen) professes to have been an eye-witness to many instances of exorcism, healing, and prophecy” … “Origen has been described as ‘the greatest genius the early church ever produced’ ”.
Augustine (d.430) -- “Augustine noted that miracles in his own day were not as spectacular or noteworthy as those at the dawn of Christ-ianity, but that they continued to take place.”

Cessationism begins -- The obvious reason why the church came up with this doctrine
Powerful church leaders (who did NOT have any of the 9 spiritual gifts of 1 Corinthians 12) were obviously jealous of those who had them!
So starting after 400 a.d., these leaders simply declared that the gifts had ceased … using
1 Corinthians 13:10 as an excuse! Could any-thing be more obvious? Less obvious is that Satan was involved in deceiving these men
into satisfying their desires.


PROBLEM:
The Almighty God says He does not change

“For I am the Lord, I do not change” (Malachi 3:6)
“Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.” (Hebrews 13:8)

God has always been a God of signs, wonders, and miracles. He performed them all throughout the OT (Moses, Elijah, Elisha, etc.), and all throughout the NT (as a confirmation of the truth of Jesus’ gospel).
“… in mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God, so that (everywhere) I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.” (Romans 15:19)
“… God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?” (Hebrews 2:4)


PROBLEM:
Are verses like this in the NT only for the church back then?

“Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up.” (James 5:14-15)
If this was only for the NT church, then what about all the other verses in the NT, such as the salvation verses? Who can divide the NT verses: Those for back then … versus … Those for now?

PROBLEM:
God’s miraculous signs were prophesied for these last days

“But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, that I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your young men shall see visions, your old men shall dream dreams. And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; and they shall prophesy … before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.’ ” (Acts 2:16-20)

PROBLEM:
Peter prophesied that the Pentecost experience would be common for many
“Then Peter said to them, ‘Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off,
as many as the Lord our God will call.’ ”
(Acts 2:38-39)

Peter promised that “as many as the Lord our God will call” among them and their ancestors … would receive the same “gift of the Holy Spirit” as was given to the 120 on this Day of Pentecost. Those of the 120 who had not received the Holy Spirit previously (see Luke 20:22), received the born-again experience … and ALL of the 120 received the baptism with the Holy Spirit, evidenced by: “they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues (Acts 2:4)

The obvious reason why cessationism has been one of Satan’s biggest successes
God’s method of confirming the truth of Jesus’ gospel with miracles, etc. was squashed for many centuries! Due to the church’s UNBELIEF, many people have been robbed of this confirming evidence of the truth of the gospel, and therefore did not believe. Not only that, but countless people have been robbed of being healed of all manner of physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual problems/

Several reasons why BACs today choose to believe in cessationism
Some simply have been misled-brainwashed-deceived about it since childhood.
Some are guilty of the serious sins of doubt,
lack of faith, and unbelief.
Please keep in mind one basic principle of Bible interpretation. Always interpret verses in terms of the context. "Perfect" refers to the perfection that Jesus will give us when he returns.
 
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FireDragon76

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It my understanding that the doctrine of cessationism did not appear until the early 1900s, mostly as a response to Asuza.
That said, as I understand it, our Church does not teach cessationism but neither do we teach modern charismatic doctrine either. We still understand the gift of languages to be just that, the ability to communicate in a language that the speaker had not learned previously. fwiw

That's pretty much how Lutherans view it, too.

Lutherans have never exactly been "cessationists" in the strict sense, we are not deists. But we don't generally agree with a charismatic/pentecostal approach. Luther did believe in miracles, he prayed for his friend Philip Melancthon when he was ill and he encountered people who were believed to be demonically possessed and he instructed churches to pray for them, and he certainly believed the Devil was real. But the idea that our assurance of salvation rests on a particular kind of spiritual experience like "speaking in tongues" or encountering other kinds of supposedly supernatural phenomena is completely foreign to us.
 
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1stcenturylady

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Please keep in mind one basic principle of Bible interpretation. Always interpret verses in terms of the context. "Perfect" refers to the perfection that Jesus will give us when he returns.

Exactly! But Cessationists will still twist that end part of 1 Corinthians 13 to an interpretation that we will see Christ "face to face" in the Scriptures/Canon. Pathetic...
 
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1stcenturylady

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There is only one reason that cessationists are cessationists. They are willing to admit the historic fact that tongues ceased. It is not as though cessationists favor the ceasing. They simply acknowlege what God has chosen to do and when.

Historically speaking how was the prophecy of the early and latter rains played out, with the long parching summer in between? Ever hear of the Dark Ages?

Friend, historically speaking, we are presently in the latter rain. That is why in believing circles, many are speaking in tongues, and experiencing the other gifts of the Spirit. Unbelievers and the uninformed do not, even calling tongues, "gibberish," and other gifts of the Holy Spirit, from the devil. 1 Corinthians 14:23, because they fail to believe, and quench the Spirit.
 
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swordsman1

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PROBLEM:
Since “that which is perfect” is NOT specified, any interpretation of it must be an assumption.


At some point, the church claimed the “perfect” meant the completion of the Canon of Scripture.

Indeed. And the same also applies to the common continuist interpretation that "the perfect" is the return of Christ. Christ is not mentioned in the passage - it is an unwarranted assumption. To determine what "the perfect" or "completion" (as other translations have it) is likely to refer to requires a detailed study of the passage. See Speaking in Tongues a Cessationists’ View


PROBLEM:
Did knowledge also pass away?

The 'knowledge' referred to in this passage is the spiritual gift of knowledge (1 Cor 12.8), not general knowledge. And yes it did pass away along with tongues and prophecy.

PROBLEM:
The early church fathers witnessed the gifts of the Spirit (ref: Wikipedia) …
Justin Martyr (d.165) -- “For the prophetical gifts remain with us, even to the present time.”

The early church fathers did indeed say that prophecy was still active in the early church. But that was before the completed canon was distributed among the churches and prophecy was still needed to instruct the church in the faith.

Irenaeus (d.202) -- “In like manner do we also hear many brethren in the church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light, for the general benefit, the hidden things of men and declare the mysteries of God, who also the apostles term spiritual”

Notice that Iranaeus says he has only heard of such events - he hadn't witnessed them first hand. So already they were becoming rare.

Origen (d.253) -- “He (Origen) professes to have been an eye-witness to many instances of exorcism, healing, and prophecy” … “Origen has been described as ‘the greatest genius the early church ever produced’ ”.

This is what Origen actually wrote:

Origen - Against Celsus

And there are still preserved among Christians traces of that Holy Spirit which appeared in the form of a dove. They expel evil spirits, and perform many cures, and foresee certain events, according to the will of the Logos. (1.46)

For they have no longer prophets nor miracles, traces of which to a considerable extent are still found among Christians, and some of them more remarkable than any that existed among the Jews; and these we ourselves have witnessed, if our testimony may be received. (2.8)

Moreover, the Holy Spirit gave signs of His presence at the beginning of Christ’s ministry, and after His ascension He gave still more; but since that time these signs have diminished, although there are still traces of His presence in a few who have had their souls purified by the Gospel, and their actions regulated by its influence. (7.8)

He says that only "traces" of such gifts remained. Clearly they were well on the way out in 253AD.

Augustine (d.430) -- “Augustine noted that miracles in his own day were not as spectacular or noteworthy as those at the dawn of Christ-ianity, but that they continued to take place.”

Like Augustine, Cessationists do not deny that God can perform miracles today. But that is not the same as someone having the 'gift of miracles'.

Augustine along with the other later church father affirmed that the gifts had ceased.

Augustine - The Homilies On John
In the earliest time, “the Holy Ghost fell upon them that believed; and they spake with tongues,” which they had not learned, “as the Spirit gave them utterance.” These were the Sign adapted to the time. For there behooved to be that betokening of the Holy Spirit in all tongues, to show that the Gospel of God was to run through all tongues over the whole earth. That thing was done for a betokening, and it passed away.

Augustine - On True Religion
When the Catholic Church had been founded and diffused throughout the whole world, on the one hand miracles were not allowed to continue till our time, lest the mind should always seek visible things, and the human race should grow cold by becoming accustomed to things which when they were novelties kindled its faith.

Augustine - Retractions
For not even now, when a hand is laid on the baptized, do they receive the Holy Spirit in such a way that they speak with the tongues of all nations; nor are the sick now healed by the passing shadow of the preachers of Christ. Even though such things happened at that time, manifestly these ceased later. (1.12.7)

Chrysostom - Commentary on 1 Corinthians 12
This whole passage is exceedingly obscure; and what creates the obscurity is both ignorance of these matters and the cessation of things which happened then but do not now occur.

Chrysostom - Commentary on 1 Cor 13:8
For if both these [gifts of prophecy and tongues] were brought in for the sake of the faith; when that is every where sown abroad, the use of these is henceforth superfluous. . . . It is no marvel that prophecies and tongues should be done away.

Theodoret - Commentary on the First Epistle to the Corinthians:
In former times those who accepted the divine preaching and who were baptized for their salvation were given visible signs of the grace of the Holy Spirit at work in them. Some spoke in tongues which they did not know and which nobody had taught them, while others performed miracles or prophesied. The Corinthians also did these things, but they did not use the gifts as they should have done. They were more interested in showing off than in using them for the edification of the church.

It is also interesting to note that all the Church Fathers understood tongues to be foreign human languages. The idea of tongues being a heavenly / non-human language only was only introduced at the beginning of the 20th Century.


Cessationism begins -- The obvious reason why the church came up with this doctrine
Powerful church leaders (who did NOT have any of the 9 spiritual gifts of 1 Corinthians 12) were obviously jealous of those who had them!
So starting after 400 a.d., these leaders simply declared that the gifts had ceased … using
1 Corinthians 13:10 as an excuse! Could any-thing be more obvious? Less obvious is that Satan was involved in deceiving these men
into satisfying their desires.

How is it obvious? Do you have some evidence that church leaders were jealous of those with gifts and so conspired against them? The reason the church came to the conclusion the charismatic gifts ceased was because they observed that they did actually cease.

PROBLEM:
The Almighty God says He does not change

“For I am the Lord, I do not change” (Malachi 3:6)

God's character doesn't change, but he certainly does change the way he operates in human history. Christ is no longer walking the earth. God is no longer inspiring people to write scripture. He no longer requires animal sacrifices. Etc, etc, etc.

“Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.” (Hebrews 13:8)

That verse clearly cannot refer to spiritual gifts as even continuists would say that tongues doesn't last forever, but ceases at the return of Christ.

God has always been a God of signs, wonders, and miracles. He performed them all throughout the OT (Moses, Elijah, Elisha, etc.), and all throughout the NT (as a confirmation of the truth of Jesus’ gospel).
“… in mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God, so that (everywhere) I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.” (Romans 15:19)
“… God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?” (Hebrews 2:4)

As I said, cessationist do not deny that God can perform miracles today. However it is wrong to say that God performed them throughout scripture. There were only 3 times of large scale miracle workings in the bible - the times of Moses, Elijah & Elisha, and the Jesus & the apostles. Those all correspond to times of new scripture writing - the Pentateuch, the Prophets, and the New Testament. Those miracles authenticated the men involved - just as the scriptures you quoted state! At other times miracles are rare, just as they are today. I would say that 90% of claimed miracles today are not miracles at all.

PROBLEM:
Are verses like this in the NT only for the church back then?

“Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up.” (James 5:14-15)
If this was only for the NT church, then what about all the other verses in the NT, such as the salvation verses? Who can divide the NT verses: Those for back then … versus … Those for now?

No cessationist would say we shouldn't pray for the sick to be healed. But praying for healing is not the same as the gift of healing. If you have to pray for healing it proves you do not have the gift of healing.

PROBLEM:
God’s miraculous signs were prophesied for these last days

“But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, that I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your young men shall see visions, your old men shall dream dreams. And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; and they shall prophesy … before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.’ ” (Acts 2:16-20)

The "last days" doesn't mean the whole length of time from Pentecost to the return of Christ. The bit you clipped out says that during the last days the sun will turn to darkness and the moon to blood. Is that happening today? No, that only occurs at the END of the last days. Similarly prophesying etc would only occur at the BEGINNING of the last days.

PROBLEM:
Peter prophesied that the Pentecost experience would be common for many
“Then Peter said to them, ‘Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off,
as many as the Lord our God will call.’ ”
(Acts 2:38-39)

Peter promised that “as many as the Lord our God will call” among them and their ancestors … would receive the same “gift of the Holy Spirit” as was given to the 120 on this Day of Pentecost. Those of the 120 who had not received the Holy Spirit previously (see Luke 20:22), received the born-again experience … and ALL of the 120 received the baptism with the Holy Spirit, evidenced by: “they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues (Acts 2:4)

The promise is for the gift (singular) of the Spirit himself, not the gifts (plural) of the Spirit.

The obvious reason why cessationism has been one of Satan’s biggest successes
God’s method of confirming the truth of Jesus’ gospel with miracles, etc. was squashed for many centuries! Due to the church’s UNBELIEF, many people have been robbed of this confirming evidence of the truth of the gospel, and therefore did not believe. Not only that, but countless people have been robbed of being healed of all manner of physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual problems/

So the average pentecostal/charismatic christian has more faith than Calvin, Luther, Spurgeon, etc?

Where does it say gifts are given according to the Church's level of faith? It says in 1 Cor 12:11 that the Spirit distributes gifts to each believer according to His will , not according to our faith. If gifts are absent it is because the Holy Spirit wills them to be absent.

Several reasons why BACs today choose to believe in cessationism
Some simply have been misled-brainwashed-deceived about it since childhood.
Some are guilty of the serious sins of doubt,
lack of faith, and unbelief.

I think a more likely reason people believe in cessationism is they see that the gifts as described in the NT are no longer in operation. What Pentecostals/charismatics today call the gifts tongues, healing, and prophecy does not match the description of those gifts in scripture.
 
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DamianWarS

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JLB777

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We see answers to the prayer of faith in all churches. Demons flee in Jesus' name. We take up serpents every time we post on line.

I know you mock the truth, but it doesn’t change.


And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” Mark 16:15-18


Everyone in the New Testament that was baptized with the Holy Spirit has evidence that was seen and heard.


Not just the Apostles.


And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Acts 19:6

Evidence that was seen or heard.


again


While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Acts 10:44-46


Evidence that was seen or heard.


again



Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” Acts 8:14-19

Again Simon saw the evidence.




JLB
 
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Historically speaking how was the prophecy of the early and latter rains played out, with the long parching summer in between? Ever hear of the Dark Ages?
Yes, I have heard of the Dark Ages. What are you imagining that the term refers to?

Friend, historically speaking, we are presently in the latter rain. That is why in believing circles, many are speaking in tongues, and experiencing the other gifts of the Spirit. Unbelievers and the uninformed do not, even calling tongues, "gibberish," and other gifts of the Holy Spirit, from the devil. 1 Corinthians 14:23, because they fail to believe, and quench the Spirit.
Even if all of that were true, it does not mean that tongues did not cease at some time in the past. A "re-start," even a genuine one, would not contradict the fact that they ceased.
 
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