Is it impossible to lose your salvation?

frogoon234 said:

thats fair. For the most part i don't have a problem with this. In Revelation i think it is, Jesus says that we should be willing to die due to persecution if thats what it means not to sway to far from the flock. I could find the verse but i'll find it later. Its something like "they did not hate their lives even too the point they were willing to die". As you well know a christian needs to believe in Jesus's overcoming death and we need to be willing to die rather than completely compromise our christian values. As we all know lying is extremely dangerous.

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This is a watered down version. “They not their LIVES even unto death.” Doesn’t say “when it came to complete compromise they were willing to die but everything less than complete they loved their lives more.”

I’m very sure no one who believes OSAS would die for the love of Christ. The whole theology focuses on what one GETS at no cost to oneself at all. Christ pays everything for them so they needn’t pay anything let alone die for Christ. It’s not about loving God but all about God loving them.

fhansen said:

Ok. I certainly don't think Jesus would send a Christian to hell but a Christian is more than a person who simply wears that name-they're a person who walks a certain way, regardless of their talk. And while I'd agree that we should have an assurance of salvation as long as we're walking the walk, I'd only argue that we should't have over-confidence about it, as if nothing we could do could take away our "Christian status" or compromise our relationship with God. We simply cannot put the cart ahead of the horse; we can't predict with 100% certainty who will persevere and who will not. While God is perfectly trustworthy and true, we can still be the wildcard in it all.

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You see the problem and that’s rare. My hats off to you.

And there are Christians who cease to be believers.

Kenny'sID said:

If there is any doubt about what will happen on judgment day, here's what Jesus says about it:

John 5:28-29 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

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Few are going to like this and no OSAS believers cause what is mentioned as the basis for judgement is what we DO, not what we confessed or believed Jesus did for us. OSAS believers edit this one out.

I believe it though, but I believe all of the Bible so this is no exception.

Dorothy Mae said:

Doe salvation depend upon repentance? Is that performance? Can one be saved and never repent of their sins? What about believing? Is that performance? Why not?

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Considering Jesus preached, 'repent the kingdom of God is at hand', I'm not likely to answer this rhetorical question with a no. In answer to the rest of the questions I can offer a definition for the term:

The emphasis in the expression is on the thoughts and inclinations of the heart, aka 'the seat of moral reflection'. This like all aspects of salvation is a gift of God, unattainable by human effort apart from the grace of God and God's sovereign choice in election. Repentance is not simple required for salvation, it is an integral part of the gift of salvation. The way it works is your sin is 'imputed' to Christ on the cross, here translated 'numbered':


Then the righteousness of God is imputed to the believer by grace through faith, Abraham being the prime example:


My problem with your questions, as well as your insistence on salvation being performance based, is an absence of the gospel in your argument.

The problem with your position is the focus is solely on going to Heaven. Your position sees only having salvation. Loving God or man is not a part of the equation. They are not necessary in your theology it seems. So you ask questions that focus on losing that as though that’s all there is.

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You need no presume to know my theology, if you look at the description below my avatar you will see I'm a Calvinist. The love of God is the precondition of salvation and the fruit of salvation, i.e. the fruit of salvation are the gifts and callings of God that are without repentance (Rom. 11:29). So far in your argument there isn't even a passing remark with regards to the gospel, the righteousness that is by faith or the manifestation of the Holy Spirit resulting in works of righteousness to the glory of God.

You at least had the presence of mind to call for a definition, I will wait to see if you accept it. Then we can talk some more.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Dorothy Mae said:

You see the problem and that’s rare. My hats off to you.

And there are Christians who cease to be believers.

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Yes there are, that's called apostasy or falling away from the faith:

Such people in my view are not saved, if they are, they can fall away from the faith only once and never be restored to repentance.

Grace and peace,
Mark

mark kennedy said:

Considering Jesus preached, 'repent the kingdom of God is at hand', I'm not likely to answer this rhetorical question with a no.

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It wasn’t rhetorical. Does that mean SOME performance on our part is required for salvation? “Performance “ is your choice of words.

In answer to the rest of the questions I can offer a definition for the term:

Repent (G3340 μετανοέω metanoeō) - To change one's mind, i. e. to repent (to feel sorry that one has done this or that, Jonah 3:9), of having offended someone, Luke 17:3f; with ἐπί τίνι added (the dative of the wrong, Hebrew עַל, Amos 7:3; Joel 2:13; Jonah 3:10; Jonah 4:2), of (on account of) something, 2 Corinthians 12:21; used especially of those who, conscious of their sins and with manifest tokens of sorrow, are intent; on obtaining God's pardon; to repent: μετανοῶ ἐν σάκκῳ καί σποδῷ, clothed in sackcloth and besprinkled with ashes, Matthew 11:21 (Abbreviated from Thayer's Lexicon)

Repent - lit., "to perceive afterwards" (meta, "after," implying "change," noeo, "to perceive;" nous, "the mind, the seat of moral reflection"), in contrast to pronoeo, "to perceive beforehand," hence signifies "to change one's mind or purpose," always, in the NT, involving a change for the better, an amendment, and always, except in Luk 17:3, 4, of "repentance" from sin… (Vine’s Dictionary)

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The emphasis in the expression is on the thoughts and inclinations of the heart, aka 'the seat of moral reflection'. This like all aspects of salvation is a gift of God, unattainable by human effort apart from the grace of God and God's sovereign choice in election. Repentance is not simple required for salvation, it is an integral part of the gift of salvation. The way it works is your sin is 'imputed' to Christ on the cross, here translated 'numbered':

He was numbered G3049 with the transgressors. (Mark 5:28; Luke 2:7)​

Then the righteousness of God is imputed to the believer by grace through faith, Abraham being the prime example:

And therefore it was imputed G3049 to him (Abraham) for righteousness. (Romans 4:22; Gen. 15:6)​

My problem with your questions, as well as your insistence on salvation being performance based, is an absence of the gospel in your argument.

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Ah but repentance performance is required in your theology. I actually never said that. You assumed I did.

You need no presume to know my theology, if you look at the description below my avatar you will see I'm a Calvinist. The love of God is the precondition of salvation and the fruit of salvation, i.e. the fruit of salvation are the gifts and callings of God that are without repentance (Rom. 11:29). So far in your argument there isn't even a passing remark with regards to the gospel, the righteousness that is by faith or the manifestation of the Holy Spirit resulting in works of righteousness to the glory of God.

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The focus for Calvinists seems to be just his gift. All Calvinists I know talk exclusively about the gift of salvation. Their descriptions of God are not complimentary except in connection with what they believe they get from Him. Just an observation.

You at least had the presence of mind to call for a definition, I will wait to see if you accept it. Then we can talk some more.

Grace and peace,
Mark

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Grace and peace to you as well!!

Dorothy Mae said:

It wasn’t rhetorical. Does that mean SOME performance on our part is required for salvation? “Performance “ is your choice of words.

So is that the “performance” requires?
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Ah but repentance performance is required in your theology. I actually never said that. You assumed I did.

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I don't recall ever giving my consent or approval of you telling me my theology. Repentance is not your works, aka performance, it's quite literally a change of your mind at the seat of moral reflection. Still not hearing the gospel as a condition for salvation, just some nebulous demand for 'performance'. I can see by your response you are rejecting my definition of repentance since you have dismissed it without comment. That tells me we are not talking about repentance here at all, but something presently undefined you apparently consider a condition of receiving and maintaining salvation. I leave you to fill in the particulars at your discretion.

There is no love of God in Calvinism, just his gift.

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Simply not true and you will find it is untrue of all genuine Christian doctrine and theology. God's love, salvation, righteousness and peace are all gifts of God in Christ. No Calvinist would ever deny such a thing, in fact, they affirm it in no uncertain terms.

All Calvinists I know talk exclusively about the gift of salvation. Their descriptions of God are not complimentary except in connect with what they believe they fit from Him.
Grace and peace to you as well!!

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I know of no such Calvinists.

Edited to add:

This is the ultimate expression of the love of God in the mind of at least one Calvinist:



We love him, because he first loved us.

Have a nice day
Mark

mark kennedy said:

I don't recall ever giving my consent or approval of you telling me my theology.

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I assumed if you feel free to tell me mine, I can do the same.

Repentance is not your works, aka performance, it's quite literally a change of your mind at the seat of moral reflection.

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Nothing I said was works either.

Still not hearing the gospel as a condition for salvation, just some nebulous demand for 'performance'. I can see by your response you are rejecting my definition of repentance since you have dismissed it without comment.

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What do you want me to say? I knew what repentance was before I knew the word. I was saved as a child without hearing the normal gospel presentation. Sorry to disappoint you. Definition sounds good, but I did the real thing.

That tells me we are not talking about repentance here at all, but something presently undefined you apparently consider a condition of receiving and maintaining salvation. I leave you to fill in the particulars at your discretion.

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The definition is fine. But it’s a bit like describing motherhood by someone who never had a child.

Simply not true and you will find it is untrue of all genuine Christian doctrine and theology. God's love, salvation, righteousness and peace are all gifts of God in Christ.

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I have corrected my text. I shouldn’t have said that. But I was talking about believers loving God.

No Calvinist would ever deny such a thing, in fact, they affirm it in no uncertain terms.
I know of no such Calvinists.

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Sorry I wrote that.

Edited to add:

This is the ultimate expression of the love of God in the mind of at least one Calvinist:

The veil was a physical, visible barrier indicating that access to God was strictly prohibited because of his holiness. It is imperative to remember that the holiness of God remains unchanged from all eternity — even after the veil is torn. What has changed, then, is that the atoning death of Jesus on the cross has provided the appropriate wrath-bearing sacrifice, one which the bulls and goats of the old covenant could not provide (Hebrews 10:4).​

The author of Hebrews expounds on this very clearly: “we have confidence to enter the holy places” (Hebrews 10:19), and this is accomplished by the blood of Jesus. This is the “new and living way” (Hebrews 10:20) that Christ opened for us through the veil, which, the author says, is through his flesh. This means that the breaking of Jesus’s body at the crucifixion is the unprecedented means by which believers have access to the presence of God. This, coupled with the priesthood of Christ (Hebrews 10:21), forms the basis of the author’s exhortation to believers: draw near to God (Hebrews 10:22), hold unwaveringly to our confession of faith (Hebrews 10:23), stir one another up to love and good works (Hebrews 10:24), and continually meet together to encourage one another in the faith (Hebrews 10:25). As we approach Easter, we recall and celebrate what Christ has done for us on the cross, and heed the exhortation to meet habitually in church for corporate worship and exhortation to hold fast to “the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 3). (The Veil was Torn in Two. Daniel M. Gurtner)​

We love him, because he first loved us.

Have a nice day
Mark

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Can you talk about God apart from what He gave?

mark kennedy said:

Yes there are, that's called apostasy or falling away from the faith:

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Heb. 6:4-6)
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Such people in my view are not saved, if they are, they can fall away from the faith only once and never be restored to repentance.

Grace and peace,
Mark

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Then they cannot fall away from a faith they never had. Fact is believers can fall away and do and Jesus said so.

Dorothy Mae said:

Then they cannot fall away from a faith they never had. Fact is believers can fall away and do and Jesus said so.

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Only once.

Dorothy Mae said:

You see the problem and that’s rare. My hats off to you.

And there are Christians who cease to be believers.

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I agree. And, incidentally perhaps, that was also the historic position of the church.

frogoon234 said:

I believe salvation from eternal suffering is as simple as accepting Jesus's sacrifice on the cross and that this is sufficient (key phrase "my grace is sufficient) in keeping a person eternally saved from eternally suffering in hell.

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Then you don't believe what Jesus told you there in the scripture.

I'd recommend you listen to the expert on this, the man who died so you could be saved. Or does your faith not require doing as the one you have faith in says to do?

Kenny'sID said:

`

Then you don't believe what Jesus told you there in the scripture.

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no comment.

Gods not mad said:

what is repentance?
lets say you sin how do you repent personally?
john 10:28-29
ephesians 2:8-9
ephesians 1:13
revelation 3:5
taking the first three scriptures and applying them to revelation 3:5

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Judging from the way yiu worded that, it appears you have a pint you want to make, more so than a question. If you would please, make the point first, and I'll comment on it.

Gods not mad said:

but one thing that is evident to me personally is i continue to answer questions but mine are discarded as oh their those OSACers go again bunch of crazy people. sheesh.

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I wasn't sure what you were saying there.

Dorothy Mae said:

Few are going to like this and no OSAS believers cause what is mentioned as the basis for judgement is what we DO, not what we confessed or believed Jesus did for us. OSAS believers edit this one out.

I believe it though, but I believe all of the Bible so this is no exception.

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Good point, we can't just ignore part of it because we don't like it, we have to take the good with what we think may not be so good. Selfish people have to have it all their way so they pretend it is. Jesus was all about not being selfish but I'm sure some ignore that as well.

Anyway, no matter what, heaven/eternal life is a very good deal considering what we have to do/not do in order to get there, and even what we have to do/may not like, is good for us in the here and now.

frogoon234 said:

no comment.

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Of course not. Do you think that's anything new around here?

Kenny'sID said:

Of course not. Do you think that's anything new around here?

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What good works have you done lately? I my self am such a great person!!!!!!! Stop goading me.

Gods not mad said:

i am not accusing you i am pointing out that if you believe on can lose salvation by not performing works then the finished work on the cross was not sufficient. when was the last time you did the things you tell others they can be lost in doing.

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I just have to point out that the poster here SAYS they are not accusing me but then goes on within the same paragraph of accusing me of tell others they can lose their salvation by not doing works. When did I say that?

philippians 4:13 if you believe i'm saying we just need to sit on the couch and stare at the wall that is ridiculous but good works that are accepted by Christ are those through faith not a belief of one doing them to earn salvation or please God so you will be accepted by him,

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AGain, the OSAS blindness of either works salvation or believing one needs do doing as Christ did it all. That is it. That is all you guys know.

ok this is the 2nd maybe third time you have said this to me and every time i have complied and answered your questions but my question to you has still gone unanswered. just because you don't like my answer does not mean i'm not answering them keep that in mind. so here are some i would like answered.

what is repentance?
lets say you sin how do you repent personally?
john 10:28-29
ephesians 2:8-9
ephesians 1:13
revelation 3:5
taking the first three scriptures and applying them to revelation 3:5

if not you can have the last word on this thread. i'm open to the conversation are you.

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I asked you to answer my questions first.

HEre they are:
Where does Jesus promise he is keeping your faith for you and you don’t need to obey, take care, pray, give, love or do anything but convince yourself he does it all for you?
OSAS thinkers:
They think they cannot fail to go to heaven no matter what they do or fail to do. Do you disagree? Please specify.

So, what do you think I believe about salvation and eternal destiny? What do you think my part is in the matter? I said what I think you think (do nothing but think right) so what do I believe, please?

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