Destroying the Disastrous Doctrine of Cessationism

JLB777 · Apr 20, 2019

Dave L said:
Destroying the Disastrous Doctrine of Cessationism

No scripture here.

Just more of your opinion.

Please just post a scripture that says scripture has replaced the gifts of God.

No links, scripture.

JLB

lsume · Apr 20, 2019

Dave L said:
Why would Paul say tongues will cease if it meant at the end of the world when every thing ceases anyway?

My only familiarity with tongues was in a Spiritual Dream. I was filled with The Holy Spirit and I was praising God in The Holy Spirit in what I think was Ancient Hebrew and then to another language that I wasn’t sure of. I do believe that if I were in a foreign land and God The Father wanted me to witness, whomever the intended is would hear in their own tongue if necessary.

Dave L · Apr 20, 2019

JLB777 said:
More false teaching with no scripture.

When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Acts 2:1-4

Here is the context for “all”.

Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day’s journey. And when they had entered, they went up into the upper room where they were staying: Peter, James, John, and Andrew; Philip and Thomas; Bartholomew and Matthew; James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot; and Judas the son of James. These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said, “Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; Acts 1:12-16

The Promise of the Father is the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Acts 1:4-5

The Promise of the Father, is for all!

For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” Acts 2:39

JLB

You are taking one group from a different time and place, ignoring the context, and importing them into a different time and place. Kind of a "photo shop" for scripture scheme.

Dave L · Apr 20, 2019

JLB777 said:
No scripture here.

Just more of your opinion.

Please just post a scripture that says scripture has replaced the gifts of God.

No links, scripture.

JLB

You say "Revelation of Jesus Christ" used both by Paul and John is not scripture? And doesn't destroy your entire agenda?

Dave L · Apr 20, 2019

JLB777 said:
The light has exposed your darkness.

Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. 1 Corinthians 13:8-10

Have all prophecies come to pass?

Has Jesus returned?

Has knowledge ceased?

JLB

You are reading into these passages your ideas = adding to scripture.

Natsumi Lam · Apr 20, 2019

Dave L said:
Just saying, tongues were spontaneous in Acts in situations where people didn't have any idea about what they were. Not so today. They are learned and coached and have nothing in common with the originals other than name.

I never learned nor coached. How do you know what it sounded like back then?

HatGuy · Apr 20, 2019

Dave L said:
Scripture replace the Charismatic gifts. The rest of the gifts are for those who use the scriptures.

Even if this were true, the line remains arbitrary.

How does scripture replace the gift of healing, for example?

Did scripture replace faith? Or is faith not supernatural?

Did scripture replace the gift of miracles?

Did it replace the gift of evangelism?

There is simply no line in the scripture that first divides "charismatic" gifts from others. All the gifts are charismatic gifts, they're all gifts of grace. Secondly, some gifts, like faith, are miraculous, and necessary for salvation.

The line is arbitrary and subjective.

Dave L · Apr 20, 2019

HatGuy said:
Even if this were true, the line remains arbitrary.

How does scripture replace the gift of healing, for example?

Did scripture replace faith? Or is faith not supernatural?

Did scripture replace the gift of miracles?

Did it replace the gift of evangelism?

There is simply no line in the scripture that first divides "charismatic" gifts from others. All the gifts are charismatic gifts, they're all gifts of grace. Secondly, some gifts, like faith, are miraculous, and necessary for salvation.

The line is arbitrary and subjective.

The prayer of faith still heals the sick. Demons still flee at the name of Jesus Christ. Just that scripture thoroughly furnishes us where tongues and prophecy were only fragments of scripture being written.

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:16–17)

Natsumi Lam · Apr 20, 2019

Dave L said:
Actually it was a good experience while it lasted. Lots of goings on and adrenaline. But I kept coming up with question nobody could answer. So I began independent study trying to find what was bothering me.

Some questions will never be answered ...only supposition is available. For example: what did tongues actually sound like back then?

Dave L · Apr 20, 2019

Natsumi Lam said:
Some questions will never be answered ...only supposition is available. For example: what did tongues actually sound like back then?

Gibberish and mindless babbling.

topher694 · Apr 20, 2019

For those who believe that the gifts - including tongues - are still alive and active today, those who believe otherwise don't present a problem. Sure, they may be missing out, but it's their decision. It doesn't change the fact that the gifts are available to them.

For those who believe in cessationism, those who believe otherwise are a threat. Belief that the gifts & tongues are still active, and that people still use them presents a direct challenge to their entire worldview. Therefore they must attack, marginalize, mock and diminish the opposition in any way they can in order to preserve their view.

Now, which one seems more in line with Jesus character to you?

Dave L · Apr 20, 2019

topher694 said:
For those who believe that the gifts - including tongues - is still alive and active today, those who believe otherwise don't present a problem. Sure, they may be missing out, but it's their decision. It doesn't change the fact that the gifts are available to them.

For those who believe in cessationism, those who believe otherwise are a threat. Belief that the gifts & tongues are still active, and that people still use them presents a direct challenge to their entire worldview. Therefore they must attack, marginalize, mock and diminish the opposition in any way they can in order to preserve their view.

Now, which one seems more in line with Jesus character to you?

If tongues were for today, all churches would speak in them spontaneously just as they did in Acts.

topher694 · Apr 20, 2019

Dave L said:
If tongues were for today, all churches would speak in them spontaneously just as they did in Acts.

Dave L · Apr 20, 2019

topher694 said:

Doesn't this alone prove today's claims for tongues are false?

topher694 · Apr 20, 2019

Dave L said:
Doesn't this alone prove today's claims for tongues are false?

You're fun

Natsumi Lam · Apr 20, 2019

Dave L said:
Gibberish and mindless babbling.

But what does that exactly sound like?

Natsumi Lam · Apr 20, 2019

Dave L said:
If tongues were for today, all churches would speak in them spontaneously just as they did in Acts.

Why? Would all? Or some? How many exactly?

JLB777 · Apr 20, 2019

Dave L said:
You are taking one group from a different time and place, ignoring the context, and importing them into a different time and place. Kind of a "photo shop" for scripture scheme.

Dave L said:
If tongues were for today, all churches would speak in them spontaneously just as they did in Acts.

Only Churches who believe.

He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” Mark 16:16-18

Dave L · Apr 20, 2019

Natsumi Lam said:
But what does that exactly sound like?

Do you speak in tongues? If so, that's what I'm talking about.

Daniel Martinovich · Apr 20, 2019

BCsenior said:
First of all, cessationism is a dying doctrine because almost ALL of the old denominations have abandoned it. The following passage was used as an excuse for starting it …

“But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.” (1 Corinthians 13:8-10)

PROBLEM:
Since “that which is perfect” is NOT specified, any interpretation of it must be an assumption.

At some point, the church claimed the “perfect” meant the completion of the Canon of Scripture.

PROBLEM:
Did knowledge also pass away?

PROBLEM:
The early church fathers witnessed the gifts of the Spirit (ref: Wikipedia) …
● Justin Martyr (d.165) -- “For the prophetical gifts remain with us, even to the present time.”
● Irenaeus (d.202) -- “In like manner do we also hear many brethren in the church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light, for the general benefit, the hidden things of men and declare the mysteries of God, who also the apostles term spiritual”
● Origen (d.253) -- “He (Origen) professes to have been an eye-witness to many instances of exorcism, healing, and prophecy” … “Origen has been described as ‘the greatest genius the early church ever produced’ ”.
● Augustine (d.430) -- “Augustine noted that miracles in his own day were not as spectacular or noteworthy as those at the dawn of Christ-ianity, but that they continued to take place.”

Cessationism begins -- The obvious reason why the church came up with this doctrine
Powerful church leaders (who did NOT have any of the 9 spiritual gifts of 1 Corinthians 12) were obviously jealous of those who had them!
So starting after 400 a.d., these leaders simply declared that the gifts had ceased … using
1 Corinthians 13:10 as an excuse! Could any-thing be more obvious? Less obvious is that Satan was involved in deceiving these men
into satisfying their desires.

PROBLEM:
The Almighty God says He does not change
“For I am the Lord, I do not change” (Malachi 3:6)
“Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.” (Hebrews 13:8)
God has always been a God of signs, wonders, and miracles. He performed them all throughout the OT (Moses, Elijah, Elisha, etc.), and all throughout the NT (as a confirmation of the truth of Jesus’ gospel).
“… in mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God, so that (everywhere) I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.” (Romans 15:19)
“… God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?” (Hebrews 2:4)

PROBLEM:
Are verses like this in the NT only for the church back then?
“Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up.” (James 5:14-15)
If this was only for the NT church, then what about all the other verses in the NT, such as the salvation verses? Who can divide the NT verses: Those for back then … versus … Those for now?

PROBLEM:
God’s miraculous signs were prophesied for these last days
“But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, that I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your young men shall see visions, your old men shall dream dreams. And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; and they shall prophesy … before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.’ ” (Acts 2:16-20)

PROBLEM:
Peter prophesied that the Pentecost experience would be common for many
“Then Peter said to them, ‘Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off,
as many as the Lord our God will call.’ ”
(Acts 2:38-39)
Peter promised that “as many as the Lord our God will call” among them and their ancestors … would receive the same “gift of the Holy Spirit” as was given to the 120 on this Day of Pentecost. Those of the 120 who had not received the Holy Spirit previously (see Luke 20:22), received the born-again experience … and ALL of the 120 received the baptism with the Holy Spirit, evidenced by: “they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues” (Acts 2:4)

The obvious reason why cessationism has been one of Satan’s biggest successes
God’s method of confirming the truth of Jesus’ gospel with miracles, etc. was squashed for many centuries! Due to the church’s UNBELIEF, many people have been robbed of this confirming evidence of the truth of the gospel, and therefore did not believe. Not only that, but countless people have been robbed of being healed of all manner of physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual problems/

Several reasons why BACs today choose to believe in cessationism
Some simply have been misled-brainwashed-deceived about it since childhood.
Some are guilty of the serious sins of doubt,
lack of faith, and unbelief.

I have found that the best way to deal with this argument. At least with those who use 1st Co as the foundation for cessationism is the obvious. That by all the rules of the writing and reading of literature. That there isn’t even a question whether that which is perfect defined. It is. That which is perfect is agape. ( Agape as defined by a Greek dictionary as opposed to the way modern humanity is defining it.) i.e. Good Will is that which is perfect according the context of the chapter 13.

All the law is summed up in these two sayings. You shall love..

The goal of the law is love,(good will) out of a pure heart and faith without hypocrisy.

Destroying the Disastrous Doctrine of Cessationism

Newbie

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Preparer of the Bride

Some guy in a hat

Well-Known Member

Preparer of the Bride

Well-Known Member

Go Turtle!

Well-Known Member

Go Turtle!

Well-Known Member

Go Turtle!

Preparer of the Bride

Preparer of the Bride

Newbie

Well-Known Member

Friend

Similar threads