When to look for the rapture of the church

jgr

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But Ice also confirms what I stated about the Shepherd of Hermas.

Those, therefore, who continue steadfast, and are put through the fire, will be purified by means of it. For as gold casts away its dross, so also will ye cast away all sadness and straitness, and will be made pure so as to fit into the building of the tower. But the white part is the age that is to come, in which the elect of God will dwell, since those elected by God to eternal life will be spotless and pure. Wherefore cease not speaking these things into the ears of the saints. This then is the type of the great tribulation that is to come. The Shepherd of Hermes, Vision 4:3 [160]


The Shepherd of Hermas had no doubt that the saints would experience the tribulation.

No pretribber, he.
 
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jgr

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But Irenaeus and Tertullian we are quite comfortable with them being authoritative. Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of John the Apostle. I posted a passage from him earlier.

But Tertullian (AD 207) has this also to say in Against Marcion 5.16.... He [Paul] says those who remain unto the coming of Christ, along with the dead in Christ, will rise first, being "caught up to meet the Lord in the air"... By the mouth of Isaiah, it was said long ago "who are these who fly like clouds unto me, as doves with their young ones". (quoted from Septuagint Isaiah 60:8)

And if we also look at Isaiah 26:19-21, Psalms 27:5, and John 14:1-3 in light of that quote above, it becomes very clear that the redeemed are taken and secured where the Lord is before the GT period. There is ample scripture support from both NT and OT (as required in the Torah regarding evidentiary standard) for a early removal of the redeemed before the GT period and several pre 4th century church documents that show that idea was held by some of them also.

Heresies, at the present time, will no less rend the church by their perversion of doctrine, than will Antichrist persecute her at that day by the cruelty of his attacks, except that persecution makes even martyrs, (but) heresy only apostates. Tertullian, The Prescription Against Heretics [190-210]

For you ought to know and to believe, and hold it for certain, that the day of affliction has begun to hang over our heads, and the end of the world and the time of Antichrist to draw near, so that we must all stand prepared for the battle; nor consider anything but the glory of life eternal, and the crown of the confession of the Lord; and not regard those things which are coming as being such as were those which have passed away. A severer and a fiercer fight is now threatening, for which the soldiers of Christ ought to prepare themselves with uncorrupted faith and robust courage, considering that they drink the cup of Christ’s blood daily, for the reason that they themselves also may be able to shed their blood for Christ… Cyprian, Epistle 55 of Cyprian [252]


Both Tertullian and Cyprian had no doubt that the saints would experience the tribulation.

No pretribbers, they.
 
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Copperhead

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Read this and renounce your 'pre trib rapture' beliefs:

Letter from Corrie Ten Boom - 1974
"The world is deathly ill. It is dying. The Great Physician has already signed the death certificate. Yet there is still a great work for Christians to do. They are to be streams of living water, channels of mercy to those who are still in the world. It is possible for them to do this because they are overcomers. Christians are ambassadors for Christ. They are representatives from Heaven to this dying world. And because of our presence here, things will change.

My sister, Betsy, and I were in the Nazi concentration camp at Ravensbruck because we committed the crime of loving Jews. Seven hundred of us from Holland, France, Russia, Poland and Belgium were herded into a room built for two hundred. As far as I knew, Betsy and I were the only two representatives of Heaven in that room.

We may have been the Lord's only representatives in that place of hatred, yet because of our presence there, things changed. Jesus said, "In the world you shall have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." We too, are to be overcomers – bringing the light of Jesus into a world filled with darkness and hate.

Sometimes I get frightened as I read the Bible, and as I look in this world and see all of the tribulation and persecution promised by the Bible coming true. Now I can tell you, though, if you too are afraid, that I have just read the last pages. I can now come to shouting "Hallelujah! Hallelujah!" for I have found where it is written that Jesus said,

"He that overcometh shall inherit all things:
and I will be His God,
and he shall be My son."

This is the future and hope of this world. Not that the world will survive – but that we shall be overcomers in the midst of a dying world.

Betsy and I, in the concentration camp, prayed that God would heal Betsy who was so weak and sick.
"Yes, the Lord will heal me,", Betsy said with confidence.
She died the next day and I could not understand it. They laid her thin body on the concrete floor along with all the other corpses of the women who died that day.

It was hard for me to understand, to believe that God had a purpose for all that. Yet because of Betsy's death, today I am traveling all over the world telling people about Jesus.

There are some among us teaching there will be no tribulation, that the Christians will be able to escape all this. These are the false teachers that Jesus was warning us to expect in the latter days. Most of them have little knowledge of what is already going on across the world. I have been in countries where the saints are already suffering terrible persecution.

In China, the Christians were told, "Don't worry, before the tribulation comes you will be translated – raptured." Then came a terrible persecution. Millions of Christians were tortured to death. Later I heard a Bishop from China say, sadly,

"We have failed. We should have made the people strong for persecution, rather than telling them Jesus would come first.
Tell the people how to be strong in times of persecution,
how to stand when the tribulation comes,
– to stand and not faint."

I feel I have a divine mandate to go and tell the people of this world that it is possible to be strong in the Lord Jesus Christ. We are in training for the tribulation, but more than sixty percent of the Body of Christ across the world has already entered into the tribulation. There is no way to escape it.
We are next.

Since I have already gone through prison for Jesus' sake, and since I met the Bishop in China, now every time I read a good Bible text I think, "Hey, I can use that in the time of tribulation." Then I write it down and learn it by heart.

When I was in the concentration camp, a camp where only twenty percent of the women came out alive, we tried to cheer each other up by saying, "Nothing could be any worse than today." But we would find the next day was even worse. During this time a Bible verse that I had committed to memory gave me great hope and joy.

"If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye;
for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you;
on their part evil is spoken of,
but on your part He is glorified."
(I Peter 3:14)

I found myself saying, "Hallelujah!
Because I am suffering, Jesus is glorified!"

In America, the churches sing, "Let the congregation escape tribulation", but in China and Africa the tribulation has already arrived. This last year alone more than two hundred thousand Christians were martyred in Africa. Now things like that never get into the newspapers because they cause bad political relations. But I know. I have been there. We need to think about that when we sit down in our nice houses with our nice clothes to eat our steak dinners. Many, many members of the Body of Christ are being tortured to death at this very moment, yet we continue right on as though we are all going to escape the tribulation.

Several years ago I was in Africa in a nation where a new government had come into power. The first night I was there some of the Christians were commanded to come to the police station to register. When they arrived they were arrested and that same night they were executed. The next day the same thing happened with other Christians. The third day it was the same. All the Christians in the district were being systematically murdered.

The fourth day I was to speak in a little church. The people came, but they were filled with fear and tension. All during the service they were looking at each other, their eyes asking, "Will this one I am sitting beside be the next one killed? Will I be the next one?"

The room was hot and stuffy with insects that came through the screenless windows and swirled around the naked bulbs over the bare wooden benches. I told them a story out of my childhood.

"When I was a little girl, " I said, "I went to my father and said,
"Daddy, I am afraid that I will never be strong enough to be a martyr for Jesus Christ."
"Tell me," said Father,
"When you take a train trip to Amsterdam,
when do I give you the money for the ticket?
Three weeks before?"


"No, Daddy, you give me the money for the ticket just before we get on the train."

"That is right," my father said, "and so it is with God's strength.
Our Father in Heaven knows when you will need the strength to be a martyr for Jesus Christ.
He will supply all you need – just in time…"


My African friends were nodding and smiling.
Suddenly a spirit of joy descended upon that church and the people began singing,

" In the sweet, by and by,
we shall meet on that beautiful shore."

Later that week, half the congregation of that church was executed.
I heard later that the other half was killed some months ago.

But I must tell you something. I was so happy that the Lord used me to encourage these people, for unlike many of their leaders, I had the word of God. I had been to the Bible and discovered that Jesus said He had not only overcome the world, but to all those who remained faithful to the end, He would give a crown of life.

How can we get ready for the persecution?

First we need to feed on the Word of God, digest it, make it a part of our being. This will mean disciplined Bible study each day as we not only memorize long passages of scripture, but put the principles to work in our lives.

Next we need to develop a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Not just the Jesus of yesterday, the Jesus of History,
but the life-changing Jesus of today who is still alive
and sitting at the right hand of God.

We must be filled with the Holy Spirit. This is no optional command of the Bible, it is absolutely necessary. Those earthly disciples could never have stood up under the persecution of the Jews and Romans had they not waited for Pentecost. Each of us needs our own personal Pentecost, the baptism of the Holy Spirit. We will never be able to stand in the tribulation without it.

In the coming persecution we must be ready to help each other and encourage each other.
But we must not wait until the tribulation comes before starting.
The fruit of the Spirit should be the dominant force of every Christian's life.

Many are fearful of the coming tribulation, they want to run. I, too, am a little bit afraid when I think that after all my eighty years, including the horrible Nazi concentration camp, that I might have to go through the tribulation also.
But then I read the Bible and I am glad.

When I am weak, then I shall be strong, the Bible says. Betsy and I were prisoners for the Lord, we were so weak, but we got power because the Holy Spirit was on us. That mighty inner strengthening of the Holy Spirit helped us through. No, you will not be strong in yourself when the tribulation comes. Rather, you will be strong in the power of Him who will not forsake you. For seventy-six years I have known the Lord Jesus and not once has He ever left me, or let me down.

"Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him", (Job 13:15)

for I know that to all who overcome,
He shall give the crown of life.
Hallelujah!"

- Corrie Ten Boom - 1974

Saw nothing substantive from scripture to convince me to give up a pre-trib position. Just anecdotal comments on the world as she saw it. On the other hand, there is ample evidence from both NT and OT to support a pre-trib position. Equating general tribulations / persecutions that have occurred over the centuries and currently to the calamities that will come upon the earth when the false messiah / antichrist is revealed is a poor comparison. After all....

Matthew 24:21-22 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.

I don't think we (or Corrie) can even equate anything that has happened in the past, from Pre-Noah on up thru the present as even coming close to what will go down during the latter time. Unless Yeshua was just blowing smoke.
 
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Copperhead

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Those, therefore, who continue steadfast, and are put through the fire, will be purified by means of it. For as gold casts away its dross, so also will ye cast away all sadness and straitness, and will be made pure so as to fit into the building of the tower. But the white part is the age that is to come, in which the elect of God will dwell, since those elected by God to eternal life will be spotless and pure. Wherefore cease not speaking these things into the ears of the saints. This then is the type of the great tribulation that is to come. The Shepherd of Hermes, Vision 4:3 [160]


The Shepherd of Hermas had no doubt that the saints would experience the tribulation.

No pretribber, he.

Interesting in that the Shepherd of Hermas is not a doctrinal assertion like a epistle or sermon, it is analysis of dreams. You used a totally different passage than the one I posted. Apple to oranges.
 
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Copperhead

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Heresies, at the present time, will no less rend the church by their perversion of doctrine, than will Antichrist persecute her at that day by the cruelty of his attacks, except that persecution makes even martyrs, (but) heresy only apostates. Tertullian, The Prescription Against Heretics [190-210]

And yet again, you posted a rebuttal using a totally different article from Tertullian than the one I quoted. Nice bait and switch, but no sale.
 
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Copperhead

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Nothing anyone is going to post will sway me from a pre-trib position. I have held it since at least 1967 and am more convinced than ever. It is not a condition of salvation anyway so it really doesn't matter if I am right or wrong, nor does it matter if anyone else is right or wrong in the position they hold. Eschatology is not a condition of justification. And given the level of what the GT period will be, I see it not affecting one bit whether one's faith is shaken or not on any position one holds. Folks either have a faith grounded in Yeshua or they don't. But also, I don't see the purgatory situation coming about that some seem to aspire to. Either one is justified or they are not. Anything else is a works righteousness gig that I will not accept in any fashion.

The scripture seems to be quite clear... both OT and NT... "that day" / Day of the Lord / Day of Trouble has a unique purpose in mind that does not pertain to the justified, and the justified up to the point at which that period starts are kept from it. That period is squarely leveled at the un-justified and also to drive the Hebrew people to the border of extinction and cause them to finally acknowledge there corporate rejection of Yeshua and turn to Him, again, per the scripture.

It all just seems to be a disagreement on what the GT period is about and the purpose of it.
 
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jgr

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Nothing anyone is going to post will sway me from a pre-trib position.

No expectation of, or interest in, that. Rather, the purpose is to expose dispensational revisionist misrepresentation, and to present the evidence from which sound conclusions can be drawn, for those who are willing to examine said evidence objectively and without preconception.

To wit, that pretribulationism was nonexistent in the overwhelming majority of the historical true Christian Church for over eighteen centuries.

It is an overwhelmingly modernist phenomenon.
 
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keras

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Nothing anyone is going to post will sway me from a pre-trib position. I have held it since at least 1967 and am more convinced than ever
We can certainly see that!
As you say: It certainly isn't a salvation issue, but you promote and teach a pre-trib rapture, all who teach will be judged more severely. James 3:1

Isn't it just a little disconcerting for you to be unable to scripturally prove your case?
To have to resort to implications, assumptions and conjecture to make any kind of doctrine out of a pre-trib rapture theory.
 
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Copperhead

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We can certainly see that!
As you say: It certainly isn't a salvation issue, but you promote and teach a pre-trib rapture, all who teach will be judged more severely. James 3:1

I and other redeemed in Yeshua are only judged in terms of rewards, not punishment. If a teacher errs, there is a loss of reward for teaching others. If they are purposefully teaching a lie, they are acting maliciously and one might question the person's justification in the Lord. But that is not in anyone's pay grade to do here. If one thinks the judgement on teaching is a punishment thing, then one is confusing justification with sanctification and falling into a works righteousness gig. Paul was never in fear of his justification before the Lord, only his loss of rewards for not having run the course properly and finishing the race. Only the Gospel message and who Yeshua is the condition of salvation. It can be a serious problem if one is putting their trust in another Yeshua.

So no, it is not a little disconcerting to me regarding expressing my position because I am convinced that both OT and NT supports the concept, and I am very convinced that I have no malicious intent to deceive anyone. I also don't expect everyone to see things exactly the same way when it comes to eschatology since I am not convinced that Yeshua expects a kingdom of robots and idiots.

All of us probably have some elements of eschatology totally wrong. Anyone who thinks they have a lock on everything risks the sin of arrogance and pride. This is why I try as best I am able to avoid accusing anyone else of malicious intent in their eschatology and only disagree and put forth effort evidence supporting the position I hold. And in doing that, try to follow the Torah prescription that any matter can only be determined on the testimony of two witnesses of which the Bereans in Acts 17 showed us how that is applied to doctrine. That any matter of doctrine has to have confirmation in both OT and NT, following sound hermeneutical principles.

And that evidences one of the major problems that cause these differences, whether one takes a more conservative, literal hermeneutical approach or uses a more liberal, allegorical approach. I prefer the former as it leaves less wiggle room for inserting ones own spin on the scripture. There are times when the scripture itself uses allegory, puns, symbolism, and other rhetorical devices, but the scripture is also pretty good about defining those. And Holy Spirit exhibits a practice in scripture called "the principle of expositional constancy", which means that idioms and symbolism generally maintain a constant reference throughout scripture. For instance, Leaven is almost always seen as an illusion to sin and corruption. Birds are seen many times as illusions to the evil ones the war against us. The Golden Rule of Hermeneutics generally will keep the average person from straying off into Alice in Wonderland territory when it comes to scripture analysis. When the plain sense of a passage makes sense, then seek no other sense, lest one end up with nonsense.

So I really am not worried of those who disagree with my eschatological positions. No need to war over it as some seem to do and get so worked up to almost turn it almost into a justification issue. And intimidation just doesn't work on me. Just seen too much in this life and getting too old to be intimidated by anyone else in the body on these matters. I do like the challenges, as it makes me go back and confirm if what I hold is on track or not. And nothing presented here has swayed me.
 
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_Dave_

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Read this and renounce your 'pre trib rapture' beliefs:

Letter from Corrie Ten Boom - 1974

That's a cheap shot Bruce. And offensive that you would use Corrie Ten Boom's tragic circumstances as a straw man to argue for your false doctrine.

Copperhead has already stated this so I won't elaborate, but NOBODY denies that believers would be persecuted throughout the ages until Jesus comes to reign on the Throne of David. But neither Ms Ten Boom, nor the rest of the world, have been through the Great Tribulation ... yet.

Isn't it just a little disconcerting for you to be unable to scripturally prove your case?

Bruce, you need to rein in your high horse a bit. Many of us have all but bludgeoned you over the head with definitive Scriptural proofs of the rapture but you stubbornly refuse to acknowledge what is clearly written.

A good example is our prior debate about the passages in John 7; which nobody would consider controversial or having to do with a rapture, but you refused to even agree to the very clear, irrefutable meaning of the passage because you thought it would refute your agenda against the rapture. That's what is truly "... just a little disconcerting ..."
 
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safswan

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This is getting downright silly, and why I saw no fruit coming from continuing with you.

I mean, really? You seriously think you are going to badger me into continuing to debate with you when I don't want to. I made my case with you and several others here about why Paul preached pre-trib. You made your case in rebuttal to mine. You aren't going to change my mind. I'm not going to change your mind.

So, move on brother.

Sorry for the lengthy period between this and my response which is as was said before:

The only way to avoid what you see is to stick to your word as you said: "That's about all I have to say about this topic on this thread"
 
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safswan

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You forgot to highlight the "I will" before the "build my church". Yeshua was speaking future tense. So the disciples standing in front of Him was not the "church" as we know it from Shavuot 30AD onward.

But I still stand that from Matthew 23:37 onward to Matthew 25:46, the primary audience that the discourse is towards is the Hebrew people. Not the redeemed that make up the Ekklesia.

And that would be supplemented by the fact that the Ekklesia of Messiah is removed prior to these events transpiring.

You are defending the indefensible.Jesus clearly introduced the concept of the church in Matthew 16 as was shown:

Mattthew16:
18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

This does not mean this was the beginning of the church as the definition of what the church is shows this is not so.Again:

"Church - 1577,ekklēsia; From a compound of 1537 and a derivative of 2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.

The Church in relation to Christ are those called out by God to believe in Christ.Hence all those called to Christ as disciples had become a part of the church."

The Holy Spirit has assisted,just in case we did not understand this as Jesus spoke to his disciples about what their conduct in the church should be,in relation to a particular matter.He said:

Matthew 18:
15Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

This is not about the future church but about the way they should operate as the church at that point in time.Jesus was speaking to His disciples:

Matthew18:1At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?

You need to differentiate between build and start.Building does not mean starting and even Paul and others were still building long after the commonly perceived start of the church.(I Corinthians 3:10)

Also as the scriptures show the first disciples/apostles to be the foundation of the church then the church must have started when they were called out by Jesus:

Ephesians 2:
20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;


And
It only causes confusion to those who do not remember the questions that were asked in Matthew 24:3 by the disciples. Yeshua's discourse is based on those questions which were regarding Yeshua's return and the end. So the entire discourse of Matthew 24:4 on thru Matthew 25:46 regards those questions. The end times is the only proper time frame of the discourse.

This is not true and the plain words of Jesus and His disciples prove this:

Matthew 24:
1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The questions are;when shall these things be? i.e, when "There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." This speaks to the destruction of the temple and this happened as was predicted in AD70.The other parts of the inquiry refers to the end time and Jesus' coming.
 
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safswan

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Pseudo-Ephraem:
"For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the Tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins" .

The above is a quote from the Latin version, which appeared after the original Syriac version.

The original Syriac version read:

"Pronouncing the good fortune of the deceased Who had avoided the calamity: 'Blessed are you for you were borne away (to the grave) And hence you escaped from the afflictions!"

The escape was via death, not rapture.

There is considerable controversy regarding the authorship and dating of these documents, of which there were multiple variants. Wikipedia has a good summary.

For those who insist on citing Pseudo-Ephraem, the original Syriac version is obviously the more credible.

It is not pretrib.

:grinning:

It definitely is not.In the same writing other passages also show the writer expected Christians to go through the tribulation he says;

"In those days people shall not be buried,neither Christian,nor heretic,neither Jew,nor pagan, because of fear and dread there is not one who buries them;because all people, while they are fleeing,ignore them".(section 4)Also:

"Then when this inevitability has overwhelmed all people,just and unjust,the just so that they may be found good by their Lord;and indeed the unjust,so that they may be damned forever with their
author the devil,and,as God beholds the human race in danger and being tossed about by the breath of the horrible dragon,he sends to them consolatory proclamation by his attendants,the prophets Enoch and Elijah,who while not yet tasting death, are servants for the heralding of the second coming of Christ..."(section 9) Again:

"And when the three and a half years have been completed,the time of the Antichrist....and on the day which the enemy of son of perdition does not know,will come the sign of the Son of Man, and coming forward the Lord shall appear...as the angelic trumpet precedes him,which shall sound and declare:Arise,O sleeping ones,arise,meet Christ,because his hour of judgement has come!Then Christ shall come and the enemy shall be thrown into confusion...."(section 10)

Again we see it is after the times of the antichrist,that Christ comes and the resurrection of the righteous(#1)takes place.This scenario opposes the pre-trib.position as the first resurrection
should take place before tribulation and before antichrist rules.
 
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safswan

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I rely on Dr. Ken Johnson's, among others, analysis of the sermon of Ephraim. Johnson is a recognized expert on documents from antiquity, and he concurs that the intent of Ephraim is regarding the Tribulation period. Johnson is an expert in the ancient languages. Your assertion is made regarding an English translation you submitted which doesn't carry any more weight that what you are countering.

I refer you to "Ancient Church Fathers", Ken Johnson, Th. D., 2010, ISBN 1452868565


And this is a part of the problem.Relying too much on the teaching of others rather than to read and understand for yourself as was said to another.If you had read the Ephraim writing for yourself you would have seen the passages which clearly support the saints being alive during the time of the son of perdition and there is no mention of church vs.tribulation saints.

Also a possible explanation of the passage quoted to support the pre-trib. position would have been seen.

Read what was said prior to the portion that is commonly quoted by pre-tribbers.

"We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues,violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion,which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother,because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time.Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: "Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!" For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. And so, brothers most dear to me,it is the eleventh hour, and the end of the world comes to the harvest,and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord."(section 2)

It is clear that the writer expected those who are brothers to see the, " advent of the wicked one",since this was the only sign left to be fulfilled.As was said in another portion of the writing.

"And when the three and a half years have been completed,the time of the Antichrist....and on the day which the enemy of son of perdition does not know,will come the sign of the Son of Man, and coming forward the Lord shall appear...as the angelic trumpet precedes him,which shall sound and declare:Arise,O sleeping ones,arise,meet Christ,because his hour of judgement has come!Then Christ shall come and the enemy shall be thrown into confusion...."(section 10)

It is after the advent of the wicked one that the coming Lord resurrects the saints and not before in a rapture prior to the son of perdition/Antichrist.It will be confusion directed at the enemies of Christ which Christians shall escape from as is written:

2Thessalonians 1:
3We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
4So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

While the saints do suffer persecutions and tribulations in the world prior to the coming of the Lord they will escape the confusion and tribulation which results from the Lord carrying out judgement and taking vengeance on those who knew Him not when He comes.This is what Ephraim was most likely referring to in light of the context above.
 
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Copperhead

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And this is a part of the problem.Relying too much on the teaching of others rather than to read and understand for yourself as was said to another.If you had read the Ephraim writing for yourself you would have seen the passages which clearly support the saints being alive during the time of the son of perdition and there is no mention of church vs.tribulation saints.

I have read all of it. While I do rely on many scholars that are far more astute regarding ancient documents, the scripture always takes priority, and in that regard the evidence from both OT and NT substantiates a early removal of the righteous prior to the calamities that will come upon the earth with the revealing of the antichrist. All of the early document stuff runs a far second place.
 
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Copperhead

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You are defending the indefensible.Jesus clearly introduced the concept of the church in Matthew 16 as was shown:

Mattthew16:
18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

This does not mean this was the beginning of the church as the definition of what the church is shows this is not so.Again:

"Church - 1577,ekklēsia; From a compound of 1537 and a derivative of 2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.

The Church in relation to Christ are those called out by God to believe in Christ.Hence all those called to Christ as disciples had become a part of the church."

The Holy Spirit has assisted,just in case we did not understand this as Jesus spoke to his disciples about what their conduct in the church should be,in relation to a particular matter.He said:

Matthew 18:
15Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

This is not about the future church but about the way they should operate as the church at that point in time.Jesus was speaking to His disciples:

Matthew18:1At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?

You need to differentiate between build and start.Building does not mean starting and even Paul and others were still building long after the commonly perceived start of the church.(I Corinthians 3:10)

Also as the scriptures show the first disciples/apostles to be the foundation of the church then the church must have started when they were called out by Jesus:

Ephesians 2:
20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;




This is not true and the plain words of Jesus and His disciples prove this:

Matthew 24:
1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The questions are;when shall these things be? i.e, when "There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." This speaks to the destruction of the temple and this happened as was predicted in AD70.The other parts of the inquiry refers to the end time and Jesus' coming.

I disagree.
 
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keras

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Bruce, you need to rein in your high horse a bit. Many of us have all but bludgeoned you over the head with definitive Scriptural proofs of the rapture but you stubbornly refuse to acknowledge what is clearly written.
You have yet to present any 'definitive proof' that the Lord intends to remove His people from the earth.
I realize that opinion is the best a 'rapture to heaven' believer can present.
Not having ang real Biblical proof of that theory, should be a concern for 'rapture' believers, but it seems to not worry them.

What they need to know is there is an alternative to the idea of being taken away from all that must take place during the end times and it will be amazing, when we Christians fulfil our destiny of being the people God always wanted in the holy Land. In our heritage: Ephesians 3:6, Romans 8:16-18, Romans 9:24-26, +

We are all believers in the Lord Jesus, He is our Savior and Redeemer. We are told that we must stand firm in our faith and my concern is for those who want Jesus to remove them from the earth, when we should be prepared to endure trials and to serve Him in the coming Kingdom on earth.
 
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Copperhead

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You have yet to present any 'definitive proof' that the Lord intends to remove His people from the earth.
I realize that opinion is the best a 'rapture to heaven' believer can present.
Not having ang real Biblical proof of that theory, should be a concern for 'rapture' believers, but it seems to not worry them.

What they need to know is there is an alternative to the idea of being taken away from all that must take place during the end times and it will be amazing, when we Christians fulfil our destiny of being the people God always wanted in the holy Land. In our heritage: Ephesians 3:6, Romans 8:16-18, Romans 9:24-26, +

We are all believers in the Lord Jesus, He is our Savior and Redeemer. We are told that we must stand firm in our faith and my concern is for those who want Jesus to remove them from the earth, when we should be prepared to endure trials and to serve Him in the coming Kingdom on earth.

You must purposefully be avoiding all the scripture evidence that has been presented from both OT and NT regarding a removal of the redeemed at or before the GT period starts.
 
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This event....

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. - 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

Will happen at this time....

That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. - 2 Thessalonians 2:2-3

1. Falling Away - Which is now occurring
2. Son of Perdition - The revealing of the Anti-Christ

I believe when the Anti-Christ makes his scene (which is not that far away) it is time for the rapture prophecy to come true.

the rapture of the church is a false doctrine...so
 
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keras

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You must purposefully be avoiding all the scripture evidence that has been presented from both OT and NT regarding a removal of the redeemed at or before the GT period starts.
You have presented scripture; yes. But evidence for a 'rapture'? No.

I don't 'purposefully' avoid your so called proofs, I read them for what they actually say.
For example; 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is telling us about the Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign. He has departed from heaven and those faithful Christians, who remain after all of the prophesied events as described in Revelation, up to chapter 19:11, have taken place. No one is said to go to heaven then, or before or after.

Re the Old Testament: There is nowhere there any prophecy saying that God will take His faithful people to heaven. Exceptions like Enoch and Elijah do not make the rule.
The OT repeatedly prophesies the restoration of the true faithful Israelites of God, now known as Christians, into all of the holy Land. Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16
 
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