The Baptist View of Baptism Destroys the Meaning of Baptism

FenderTL5

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I would have to know all the circumstances of his case in order to answer that. Basically, Orthodox churches consider baptisms performed in other Christian churches to be valid, whether or not they are by immersion.

I dug up an old quote from a well-known poster now absent from CF

perhaps it's my perspective but triple immersion or single immersion seems arbitrary and if it's the latter it shouldn't be a reason to call a baptism invalid, yet it seems to be, at least from the posters pov. I don't see why this is any different in spirit among evangelicals.
First, I'm a member of laity, not clergy, so I do not speak with any authority of the church.
I think there's some leeway given to each Bishop on this. Our Bishop will accept baptisms done "in the name of The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" whether it's single or triple immersion. I was Chrismated into the church. The Independent Baptist church I attended as a child never presented baptismal certificates but I was able to get witnesses to my baptism to write a letter verifying that it occured and it was accepted. fwiw

The Didache does offer alternatives to immersion if water is scarce/unavailable. So even the a single full immersion can have an alternate.
 
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twin1954

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Well I have read through this whole thread and am amazed at how ignorant, as in uninformed, most seem to be concerning baptism. The OP seems to know what the Westminster Confession says when he uses the phrase sign and seal but seems unaware where and how the Westminster Divines arrive at that phrase. The Reformed Baptists here also seem unaware, at least, how Baptists historically differ from the supposed Reformed position and why. Also most who call themselves Baptists seem to have a lack of understanding the significance of baptism and accept the baptism of anyone. I hope to shed some light on the subject.

Beginning with Scripture, as we always should, look at Rom. 6. If you want to know what Scripture teaches on any subject you must go to the place where it is clearly taught and interpret the unclear in that light. The place where baptism is explained is Rom. 6.

Romans 6:1-11 (KJV) 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Now if I were to go through each verse, which I properly should, this post would become way too long so I will just give the highlights and leave it to the reader to look at the rest and see the connections.

Verses 1-3 sets the stage for Paul’s argument. The subject continues from the last part of chapter 5. So we see that Paul is answering the question he raises in verse 1. He now begins to uses baptism to answer the question. He clearly tells us that in baptism are showing ourselves to be united to Christ in His death. He later tells us that baptism is in the “likeness” of His death.

Verses 4-5 are the clear explanation of what baptism is. It is in the likeness of His death and resurrection. Paul nowhere says it is a sign or seal. Baptism, by symbol, is a picture of our being united to Christ through faith in His death and resurrection. It is being buried with Him symbolically and being raised from the grave to newness of life. It shows us that we are dead to the law of sin and death, the judgement of of it in strict justice and no longer live as slaves to sin. We reckon ourselves to be dead to sin and alive unto Christ. The act of baptism does nothing but identify ourselves with Christ. There is no special grace conferred which means that it isn’t a sacrament. It is our public profession of faith in Christ. Those who profess faith in Christ but will not be baptized calls into question their conversion. I do recognize as well the confusion that widely exists as to what baptism is and who should be baptized.

I will make another post on how we, as Baptists, arrive at a different view than the Reformed Paedo-Baptist’s.
 
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DamianWarS

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First, I'm a member of laity, not clergy, so I do not speak with any authority of the church.
I think there's some leeway given to each Bishop on this. Our Bishop will accept baptisms done "in the name of The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" whether it's single or triple immersion. I was Chrismated into the church. The Independent Baptist church I attended as a child never presented baptismal certificates but I was able to get witnesses to my baptism to write a letter verifying that it occured and it was accepted. fwiw

The Didache does offer alternatives to immersion if water is scarce/unavailable. So even the a single full immersion can have an alternate.
I understand it may be flexible but it also seems it's based on who you are talking with. The end result is that there are rebaptisms happening because of how many times a person is immersed by a body that rejects rebaptisms. It's different language, it's different criteria but it's the same spirit. The issue is really what makes a baptism legitimate and if the way you got baptized doesn't meet the criteria of x-tradition than rebaptism is required in order to be a part of x-tradition. They may never call it rebaptism but it's the same values.
 
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FenderTL5

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I understand it may be flexible but it also seems it's based on who you are talking with. The end result is that there are rebaptisms happening because of how many times a person is immersed by a body that rejects rebaptisms. It's different language, it's different criteria but it's the same spirit. The issue is really what makes a baptism legitimate and if the way you got baptized doesn't meet the criteria of x-tradition than rebaptism is required in order to be a part of x-tradition. They may never call it rebaptism but it's the same values.
I'm not disagreeing with your point; I do think that there is an effort to avoid re-baptizing, based on what I know of the church. ymmv
 
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Calvin_1985

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Baptism is a sign and seal of regeneration.

Regeneration is a saving act of God wherein man is totally passive. God removes the heart of stone and gives him a heart of flesh. Man cannot regenerate himself nor participate in his own regeneration. Baptism is an outward sign of regeneration. That is its meaning.

But baptists say that only adults may be baptized because only adults have the ability to understand the gospel, repent, and believe. This emphasizes not God's monergistic action in regenerating a person, but man's response to God and his participation in his salvation.

The Reformed view of baptism captures the meaning of baptism much better. Seeing an infant who has no ability to repent and believe be baptized testifies to us that regeneration is an act of God alone which does not require man's participation.
What is your goal in posting this?
 
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A_Thinker

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Holy Ghost baptism saves you ...

Luke 3:16

John answered all of them: “I baptize you with water, but One more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
 
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twin1954

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Presbyterian Reformed Covenant Theology is the basis for their view of baptism and who can and should be baptized. Their view is that baptism is a continuation of circumcision and arrive at that conclusion using what they call “necessary consequence”. They, like the Baptists of old, interpret the Scriptures in the use of covenants made between God and man. Both hold to a Covenant of Grace but see it differently as a Covenant of Grace under 2 administrations and a Covenant of Grace progressively revealed in the Old Testament and fully concluded in the New. The difference is tremendous.

The traditional Reformed view of the Covenant of Grace is one Covenant under 2 administrations. They see the Coveant adminerstered under the time of the law and administered under the time of the Gospel. That is how they arrive at baptism being a continuation of circumcision. Since they have no clear biblical support for their conclusion they use what is called “necessary consequence” to arrive at infant baptism and baptism as a sign and seal.

Baptists, traditionally, held to a Covenant of Grace that was revealed to Adan in the promise of the woman’s seed found in Gen. 3:15 and progressively revealed throughout the Old Testament in types and pictures until it was completely revealed in Christ. We do not see a continuation of the Old Covenant of Law but a whole new covenant revealed in the New Testament. Therefore we do not see infant baptism in the Scriptures nor baptism being a continuation of circumcision. We see baptism as a new ordinance give by Christ through which we publicly identify with Christ being united to Him through faith.

Now this is a brief explanation but I hope it shows the difference between the 2 factions and how they arrive at their prospective positions. Now Roman Catholic and other non-Protestants arrive at their views in a totally different manner. Theirs come from men not the inspired writings of the Scriptures.

The significance of baptism and who should partake should be understood hopefully in the light of my humble offering here. Hope at least it clears up any confusion as to how we each arrive at our views.
 
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DamianWarS

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I'm not disagreeing with your point; I do think that there is an effort to avoid re-baptizing, based on what I know of the church. ymmv
I think across the board this should be a greater focus to avoid re-baptizing and I applaud efforts toward this.
 
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lsume

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Baptism is a sign and seal of regeneration.

Regeneration is a saving act of God wherein man is totally passive. God removes the heart of stone and gives him a heart of flesh. Man cannot regenerate himself nor participate in his own regeneration. Baptism is an outward sign of regeneration. That is its meaning.

But baptists say that only adults may be baptized because only adults have the ability to understand the gospel, repent, and believe. This emphasizes not God's monergistic action in regenerating a person, but man's response to God and his participation in his salvation.

The Reformed view of baptism captures the meaning of baptism much better. Seeing an infant who has no ability to repent and believe be baptized testifies to us that regeneration is an act of God alone which does not require man's participation.
I understand the True meaning of the water Baptism much more clearly than at a much earlier time in my life. The question I think one might ask is about the thief on the cross by Christ. That is a Glorious and Loving Passage for those who are included in Mathew 11:28. I pray that I’m included.

Matt.11
  1. [28] Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
 
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Tigger45

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I understand the True meaning of the water Baptism much more clearly than at a much earlier time in my life. The question I think one might ask is about the thief on the cross by Christ. That is a Glorious and Loving Passage for those who are included in Mathew 11:28. I pray that I’m included.

Matt.11
  1. [28] Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Read every verse in the NT actually 'referencing' baptism and you can't deny it's a means of grace directed by Christ Himself which is no where negated by a single event of a repentant sinner who receives 'that' grace from Christ face to face.
 
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Tree of Life

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is there a verse that says baptism is a seal?

the Holy Spirit is a seal for believers - the Bible says that.

Romans 4:11 says that circumcision was a sign and a seal. Circumcision was an OT sacrament. We believe the same terms apply to the NT sacraments.
 
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StillGods

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Romans 4:11 says that circumcision was a sign and a seal. Circumcision was an OT sacrament. We believe the same terms apply to the NT sacraments.

well I'm not getting circumcised hehe, thankfully...
so there isnt a verse that actually says baptism is a seal I guess
ok, thanks for replying.
 
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StephenDiscipleofYHWH

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Furthermore, baptists will say that a person who was baptized as an infant should be baptized again as an adult professing their faith.

But baptism is a sign of regeneration, and regeneration is something that only happens once.

Thus rebaptism also destroys the meaning of baptism.
They were never truly baptized to begin with, they did not believe in Christ repent of their sins and confess that Christ is God before going into the water(full immersion). That being the case they were never truly baptized, baptizing an infant seeks to destroy the whole process of Baptism laid forth by the Apostles and Christ. An infant has not yet reached an age of understanding to even be accountable for sin, they have no need for baptism as they have not yet sinned nor do they understand sin.

There are some things a person must do to receive the gift of Salvation in Yahshua the Christ and the remission for sin.
We must believe that God became flesh, John 1:1,14. We must believe that Yahshua the Christ lived a Sinless Life, 2 Corinthians 5:21. We must believe that Yahshua the Christ died on the cross for us and the sins of the world. Then raised himself from the grave on the third day, John 10:17-18. We must repent of all past sins, and ask the Lord God forgiveness for our past sins in the name of Yahshua the Christ Luke 24:47, 1 Timothy 2:5. We also must forgive all whom have sinned against us or we will not be forgiven, Matthew 6:14-15. We must all do exactly as Acts 2:38 says to do to receive forgiveness and remission for sins, Luke 24:47. This must be done in the(name) of Yahshua the Christ(only) as it was in every account of water Baptism by immersion in water for the remission of sin in the New testament. (One Name, Acts 4:10-12,Matt 28:18-20,Acts 10:48) (full submersion, Romans 6:3-11,John 3:2-7,Galatians 2:19-20,2 Colossians 2:10-15,19-23)
By doing these things we will receive forgiveness and remission for sins. NO other way is written in the word of God under grace, Galatians 1:6-9, Acts 4:12, 1 Peter 3:21.
 
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Phil W

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It can happen that way. That does not mean that Baptism is doctrinally, Scripturally, necessary for salvation.
Even though Jesus Christ said..." He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;"?
 
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Phil W

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They were never truly baptized to begin with, they did not believe in Christ repent of their sins and confess that Christ is God before going into the water(full immersion). That being the case they were never truly baptized, baptizing an infant seeks to destroy the whole process of Baptism laid forth by the Apostles and Christ. An infant has not yet reached an age of understanding to even be accountable for sin, they have no need for baptism as they have not yet sinned nor do they understand sin.

There are some things a person must do to receive the gift of Salvation in Yahshua the Christ and the remission for sin.
We must believe that God became flesh, John 1:1,14. We must believe that Yahshua the Christ lived a Sinless Life, 2 Corinthians 5:21. We must believe that Yahshua the Christ died on the cross for us and the sins of the world. Then raised himself from the grave on the third day, John 10:17-18. We must repent of all past sins, and ask the Lord God forgiveness for our past sins in the name of Yahshua the Christ Luke 24:47, 1 Timothy 2:5. We also must forgive all whom have sinned against us or we will not be forgiven, Matthew 6:14-15. We must all do exactly as Acts 2:38 says to do to receive forgiveness and remission for sins, Luke 24:47. This must be done in the(name) of Yahshua the Christ(only) as it was in every account of water Baptism by immersion in water for the remission of sin in the New testament. (One Name, Acts 4:10-12,Matt 28:18-20,Acts 10:48) (full submersion, Romans 6:3-11,John 3:2-7,Galatians 2:19-20,2 Colossians 2:10-15,19-23)
By doing these things we will receive forgiveness and remission for sins. NO other way is written in the word of God under grace, Galatians 1:6-9, Acts 4:12, 1 Peter 3:21.
I agree completely !
 
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Mark Quayle

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Even though Jesus Christ said..." He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;"?

If I said that according to Scripture the person who believes is saved, would you disagree with me? Then what if I say the person who believes and keeps himself from the world will be saved? It is not then the baptism, but the belief. When it later says the unbeliever is condemned, it doesn't cite the lack of baptism as a cause for condemnation.

But it goes much farther than that. The cause-effect is not established in this verse, any more than simple coincidence. It may well be, (and I can show good reason to think), that belief is not what saves, but the regeneration by the Spirit according to the choice that God makes --not that we make; i.e. our choice does not save us/ we cannot save ourselves. The regeneration causes the faith, and the faith the belief --not the other way around. (I parse it thus for the purpose of showing who does what. I don't actually differentiate that way between faith and belief, unless, like here, I do it to show OUR act, or decision, to believe is not what saves us.)

But wait, there's more! The thief on the cross was never given the opportunity to be baptised, yet he was promised paradise.

But wait, don't answer yet!

Mark 16:9-20 doesn't appear in many of the oldest ancient manuscripts. It seems it may have been added to the originals.
 
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StephenDiscipleofYHWH

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If I said that according to Scripture the person who believes is saved, would you disagree with me? Then what if I say the person who believes and keeps himself from the world will be saved? It is not then the baptism, but the belief. When it later says the unbeliever is condemned, it doesn't cite the lack of baptism as a cause for condemnation.

But it goes much farther than that. The cause-effect is not established in this verse, any more than simple coincidence. It may well be, (and I can show good reason to think), that belief is not what saves, but the regeneration by the Spirit according to the choice that God makes --not that we make; i.e. our choice does not save us/ we cannot save ourselves. The regeneration causes the faith, and the faith the belief --not the other way around. (I parse it thus for the purpose of showing who does what. I don't actually differentiate that way between faith and belief, unless, like here, I do it to show OUR act, or decision, to believe is not what saves us.)

But wait, there's more! The thief on the cross was never given the opportunity to be baptised, yet he was promised paradise.

But wait, don't answer yet!

Mark 16:9-20 doesn't appear in many of the oldest ancient manuscripts. It seems it may have been added to the originals.
The thief on the Cross was under the Old Testament Law and not under grace in the New Testament as Christ had not yet died or ascended on Sunday to sprinkle his blood on the Altar in heaven as a blood offering for sin.

When the Lord told the Thief he would be with him today in Paradise he was speaking of the grave/Sheol/hell, more specifically the abode of the Pious souls in Hades/hell. Because he did not first ascend to heaven but first descended into the lower parts of the earth(Ephesians 4:9) to preach to the spirits in prison as Peter tells us(1 Peter 3:18-19). It was not until Sunday that he ascended into heaven as he told Mary not to touch him because he had not yet ascended(John 20:17).

The thief's faith in the Lord saved him(Hebrews 11:6,13,39) as it did so many others who were under the Mosaic law(Hebrews 11), these had faith but had not yet received the promise of faith in Christ being kept under the law(Galatians 3:23; Romans 4:5-9). Until Christ's death,Resurrection, and ascension with the offering of his blood for man's sins no man had received the promise of faith, none were yet under grace.

The thief on the Cross is just one more example of faith in God saving a man under the mosaic law.
 
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Bruce Leiter

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Baptism is a sign and seal of regeneration.

Regeneration is a saving act of God wherein man is totally passive. God removes the heart of stone and gives him a heart of flesh. Man cannot regenerate himself nor participate in his own regeneration. Baptism is an outward sign of regeneration. That is its meaning.

But baptists say that only adults may be baptized because only adults have the ability to understand the gospel, repent, and believe. This emphasizes not God's monergistic action in regenerating a person, but man's response to God and his participation in his salvation.

The Reformed view of baptism captures the meaning of baptism much better. Seeing an infant who has no ability to repent and believe be baptized testifies to us that regeneration is an act of God alone which does not require man's participation.
You're right. I'm also Reformed. However, the Reformed view is based on the old and new covenant, which has God's sovereign actions which we don't deserve at all and human believers' response of faith to raise the child with the gospel. That's why in the Christian Reformed Church, parents make vows to that effect. To have only God's part without parents' vows is a fatalism that's not taught in Scripture.
 
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